Sobering moment - hopefully not someone from on here..

Chicane-UK

I've been gradually getting into road biking over the last year albeit very slowly and have been enjoying an occasional commute to work in the warmer months on a road bike.

Coming through those very same roads this morning in my car and through a junction I've always hated in the car, let alone on a bike (cross roads with a fast hill approach from either side in a quiet country lane - just outside Stoneleigh Village near Coventry for anyone that knows it!) I was confronted with an accident that must have just happened only a minute before - older lady in a Fiat Punto seemed to have pulled out on a cycling who'd been blasting that down that hill, across the crossroads and right into his path. His bike, front wheel smashed up was about 30 yards from him... lying in the road, totally still.. not moving at all. Seriously concerned people standing around him. Driver of the Punto, understandably rather horrified at what has happened.

Someone was on the phone, an ambulance was obviously being called (I passed it a few minutes later rushing to the scene) so I turned around and went on my way feeling totally hopeless and totally sobered up.

Hoping to god that the guy is OK. It's just so terrifying how you can be cycling to work, minding your own business and boom..

graeme_s-2

Yikes, that's in my neck of the woods. Hope the cyclist is ok.

Was it this crossroads (between the B4115 and the Birmingham/Stoneleigh Road):

http://bit.ly/ynRB3

Soni

Terrible mate, the amount of times i ride along the road and a car is waiting at a junctionto pull out and you look at them and know for a fact that they haven't even seen you and don't know you are there...

Chicane-UK

Was it this crossroads (between the B4115 and the Birmingham/Stoneleigh Road):

Ah - a fellow Coventrian!

Yes indeed - it was that crossroads. Anyone who's navigated it in a car or on a bike knows that it's a bit hairy as the approach from either side on the Birmingham road is a hill..

I've nearly had accidents there in my car on more than one occasion and I consider myself to be a pretty decent driver.

Have been thinking about this poor guy all day and I really hope he's OK.

Stellite

I got knocked off by a van this morning. It turned left in on me at a cross roads, luckily i was only going slow as had stopped for the lights so no damage to me or the bike.

Hope the guy in the post is OK, i feel sick thinking about it

rogerthecat

"A trucker mowed down and killed a cyclist in Wakefield before driving off and throwing the bike away, Leeds Crown Court heard"


Yorkshire Evening Post

DevUK

Can't find anything on the local news sites unfortunately. Maybe fortunately, as I'm sure if he was killed it would of been on the news...

pinno

Come on folks - enough is enough: join the Shoot Clarkson Campaign and lets get a change in the Law - post in "Campaign Forum" - share your views, decide on a law change.
Too many cyclists are killed and its always 'just an accident'.

Chicane-UK

I don't quite understand the point of making Clarkson a hate figure for all bad drivers. I'm a keen motorist too and think Clarkson is pretty funny - I watch Top Gear religiously. The old lady who knocked this guy off his bike this morning probably doesn't even know of Clarkson and I'm willing to bet she doesn't watch Top Gear.

Is the average person who knocks the cyclist off a bike an muppet who was racing or driving like an idiot.. someone perhaps someone who's old and doesn't have the reactions of a younger person who just wasn't paying attention..?

pinno

I am sorry, you missed the point.

Clarkson sums up the attitude towards cyclists both on the road and in the legal system: One of callous disreagard. You obviously have not seen his antics when he had that stupid Sunday evening show and had a go at cyclists and lycra etc.

The Shoot Clarkson Campaign is a metaphor. I would like to shoot him but that is a matter of opinion. I am not trying to wage a hate war against him, I am trying to get people together to discuss how we are going to change the law so that cyclists are better protected.
Have a look at the Reading Chronicle article regarding the death of a cyclist - they have a website.

Corporate Camper

pinarello001 wrote:

I am trying to get people together to discuss how we are going to change the law so that cyclists are better protected.

It's a shame that you dilute your otherwise serious aim with all that celebrity bashing waffle. Top Gear/Clarkson etc is all pantomime, don't mix it up with the real world.

Chicane-UK

I am sorry, you missed the point.

Clarkson sums up the attitude towards cyclists both on the road and in the legal system: One of callous disreagard. You obviously have not seen his antics when he had that stupid Sunday evening show and had a go at cyclists and lycra etc.

I've watched just about every single piece of work Clarkson has committed to film and I own a number of his books!

Just to be clear, I'm really not looking to get into a fight about it as I think your cause is a totally noble and well justified one.. but I just feel that making Clarkson the bogeyman isn't the best way of going about it. He does come out with some utter tripe and I absolutely don't agree with everything he says, but I think pitching such a campaign with a name like Shoot Clarkson is setting totally the wrong tone for what you're trying to achieve.

As Corporate Camper says, he's just a bit of fun and a bit of pantomime - if we took all the fluff like that off TV we'd end up going insane. We need more stuff like that, but we just need better driver education and stronger prosecution for the people who flaunt the rules!

pedylan

Corporate Camper wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

I am trying to get people together to discuss how we are going to change the law so that cyclists are better protected.

It's a shame that you dilute your otherwise serious aim with all that celebrity bashing waffle. Top Gear/Clarkson etc is all pantomime, don't mix it up with the real world.

If only Clarkson were not real world. He is not a comedian, he presents a magazine show and is successful because he's bright enough to recognise the populist value of portraying his character as typical of bombastic impatient, speeding and often dangerous car drivers. These individuals get behind a wheel and become dangerous maniacs whose behaviour is validated by Clarkson's moronic "Get out of my way!!!" utterances. So as a cyclist, when I'm endangerd by these tw*ts and have to do their thinking for them it's Clarkson's idiot arse of a stance that springs to mind every time.

Back to the OP, let's hope for the best and I do appreciate this sounds like carelessness not recklessness.

Nuggs

pinarello001 wrote:

post in "Campaign Forum" - share your views, decide on a law change.

Yes that'll do it. Next week we can post in "Campaign Forum" and eradicate world poverty.

dilemna

rogerthecat wrote:

"A trucker mowed down and killed a cyclist in Wakefield before driving off and throwing the bike away, Leeds Crown Court heard"


Yorkshire Evening Post

Well if no one else can be bothered to comment on your link to another cycling fatality then I shall be the first. That's awful. I hope he is convicted and receives a long long sentence.

I hope the guy knocked off in the OP's thread is ok. Sobering. I have done a search of the Coventry Telegraph but they don't seem to have picked it up.

sylvestermorgan

Yes, I read this too. Horrific. The driver must surely have known what he had done but didn't have the decency to stop.

Chicane-UK

I did read the linked article about the trucker but simply couldn't put into words just how appalling it was - I simply didn't know what to say about something so atrocious! Apologies for not responding!

I've checked all local (online) newspapers and haven't seen anything so I'm assuming he was ok... fingers crossed.

pinno

Thank you pedylan.

Nuggs - that sort of sarcasm is the sort of apathy/cynicism that suggests the same careless disregard that the likes of Clarkson emit and as pedylan commented: we have to go out on a regular basis and face the sort of drivers who indeed are 'validated' by the likes of Clarkson.

Yes, I agree that if we removed the offbeat people like Clarkson we would be going insane. Keeping him on air simply because he does not adhere to the norm is insufficient. For me Clarkson underlines the bigotry and disreagrd that underlies many people in th UK.
I resent the fact that I pay a television license for somebody who actively, directly or indirectly promotes aggresive, immature, boyish and hedonistic attitudes.

"Celebrity bashing". Do I give a fuc4? Celebrities have a duty to act as icons both morally and in their actions. These people (Jonathan Ross included) are being paid unbeleivable sums of money to do what exactly? -say what they like, regardless of the implications?

When he was at Oxford, 300 students launched a petition against him to have him thrown out. Speak to the ramblers on the Isle of Man and you will see the sort of idiotic things he is up to.

Anyway, this is detracting from the real issue - are you or are you not interested in chainging the law so that cyclists may benefit from the extra protection afforded by a change in the law? or even proper retribution for careless actions or even fair and reasonable investigative time put into accidents involving cyclists, which as a fact rarely
occurs.

dilemna

pinarello001 wrote:

Thank you pedylan.

Nuggs - that sort of sarcasm is the sort of apathy/cynicism that suggests the same careless disregard that the likes of Clarkson emit and as pedylan commented: we have to go out on a regular basis and face the sort of drivers who indeed are 'validated' by the likes of Clarkson.

Yes, I agree that if we removed the offbeat people like Clarkson we would be going insane. Keeping him on air simply because he does not adhere to the norm is insufficient. For me Clarkson underlines the bigotry and disreagrd that underlies many people in th UK.
I resent the fact that I pay a television license for somebody who actively, directly or indirectly promotes aggresive, immature, boyish and hedonistic attitudes.

"Celebrity bashing". Do I give a fuc4? Celebrities have a duty to act as icons both morally and in their actions. These people (Jonathan Ross included) are being paid unbeleivable sums of money to do what exactly? -say what they like, regardless of the implications?

When he was at Oxford, 300 students launched a petition against him to have him thrown out. Speak to the ramblers on the Isle of Man and you will see the sort of idiotic things he is up to.

Anyway, this is detracting from the real issue - are you or are you not interested in chainging the law so that cyclists may benefit from the extra protection afforded by a change in the law? or even proper retribution for careless actions or even fair and reasonable investigative time put into accidents involving cyclists, which as a fact rarely
occurs.

Change the law how exactly?

pinno

Change in the Law?

I do not know exactly what laws need to change or what laws need to be inplace. If you follow the threads in the 'Campaign' forum (re: Shoot Clarkson Campaign), 'steppenherring' suggested that it was the implication of judicial process that was not being carried out.

How do we change the law? - by lobbying, by collectively pushing councillors, MP's, Msp's. Euro MP's etc etc. Without a concerted effort, no change is going to happen.
Joanna Lumley did it. Why can't we?

All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing.

robdaykin

I'm not a lawyer, but I have an idea how to change the law.

My suggestion is that cars are classified as lethal weapons, and ownership of them has the same status and seriousness as guns.

Misuse of them, for instance the truck driver in Wakefield, would then carry far more serious penalties. The other thing i think it would promote is a change in attitude to ownership of a car. Too many people regard driving as a right, and not a privilege. Speeding,cutting someone up, using a mobile or even causing an accident are socially considered as misdemeanors, with little come back, and no social stigma. If you reclassify cars, and apply similar penalties to firearms offences, then driving would improve drastically, as many bad or malign drivers lose their licenses. If you face a criminal sentence that can end your career and put you in prison, would you ignore the law as casually as many motorists currently do?

Sounds extreme, but I'm sure we all agree, a car is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands. And there are a lot of wrong hands on steering wheels at this minute.

dilemna

pinarello001 wrote:

Change in the Law?

I do not know exactly what laws need to change or what laws need to be inplace. If you follow the threads in the 'Campaign' forum (re: Shoot Clarkson Campaign), 'steppenherring' suggested that it was the implication of judicial process that was not being carried out.

How do we change the law? - by lobbying, by collectively pushing councillors, MP's, Msp's. Euro MP's etc etc. Without a concerted effort, no change is going to happen.
Joanna Lumley did it. Why can't we?

All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing.

Ehhh........You push for a change in the law but don't have any idea what this change should be????!! :roll: .

STEFANOS4784

Nuggs wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

post in "Campaign Forum" - share your views, decide on a law change.

Yes that'll do it. Next week we can post in "Campaign Forum" and eradicate world poverty.

Oooooh, then obesity. I hate fat people

Edit: i don't really hate fat people, just joking

dilemna

robdaykin wrote:

I'm not a lawyer, but I have an idea how to change the law.

My suggestion is that cars are classified as lethal weapons, and ownership of them has the same status and seriousness as guns.
Sounds extreme, but I'm sure we all agree, a car is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands. And there are a lot of wrong hands on steering wheels at this minute.

Not really practical. A car is not a weapon it's a means of transport. A gun on the other han will always be a weapon.

The standard of driving of a driver of a vehicle is that which becomes an issue. Thus driving is a lawful activity which becomes unlawful when carried out negligently.

Nuggs

dilemna wrote:

robdaykin wrote:

I'm not a lawyer, but I have an idea how to change the law.

My suggestion is that cars are classified as lethal weapons, and ownership of them has the same status and seriousness as guns.
Sounds extreme, but I'm sure we all agree, a car is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands. And there are a lot of wrong hands on steering wheels at this minute.

Not really practical. A car is not a weapon it's a means of transport. A gun on the other han will always be a weapon.

The standard of driving of a driver of a vehicle is that which becomes an issue. Thus driving is a lawful activity which becomes unlawful when carried out negligently.

How about making the injuring of a cyclist on the road a strict liability offence. Therefore, teh driver is assumed guilty of the offence and it is for him to disprove that assumption (e.g. cyclist was negligent etc)? That may help focus the mind of motorists.

I'm off to work on that proverty issue...

Wallace1492

Nuggs wrote:

Therefore, teh driver is assumed guilty of the offence and it is for him to disprove that assumption (e.g. cyclist was negligent etc)? That may help focus the mind of motorists.

I'm off to work on that proverty issue...

Why assume driver is guilty? Surely cornerstone of law is innocent till proven guilty. Might as well then say that whoever is in a big vehicle is gulty of hitting smaller vehicle. Bigger guy must be guilty of punching smaller guy, where do you stop?

Plenty of cycling numties out there that would use it as an excuse to be ever more reckless. It is not the answer, just a misguided attemp at getting correction.

However, I do think there needs to be a change in attitude, and enforcement, change in law probably not required.

prawny

Nuggs wrote:

dilemna wrote:

robdaykin wrote:

I'm not a lawyer, but I have an idea how to change the law.

My suggestion is that cars are classified as lethal weapons, and ownership of them has the same status and seriousness as guns.
Sounds extreme, but I'm sure we all agree, a car is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands. And there are a lot of wrong hands on steering wheels at this minute.

Not really practical. A car is not a weapon it's a means of transport. A gun on the other han will always be a weapon.

The standard of driving of a driver of a vehicle is that which becomes an issue. Thus driving is a lawful activity which becomes unlawful when carried out negligently.

How about making the injuring of a cyclist on the road a strict liability offence. Therefore, teh driver is assumed guilty of the offence and it is for him to disprove that assumption (e.g. cyclist was negligent etc)? That may help focus the mind of motorists.

I'm off to work on that proverty issue...

Isn't that just the 5th EU directive or something like that? That was voted down a year or two ago. I think in parts of europe it is assumed that the car is at fault but we don't like that in britain because cyclists are scum :roll:

Wallace1492

prawny wrote:

Isn't that just the 5th EU directive or something like that? That was voted down a year or two ago. I think in parts of europe it is assumed that the car is at fault but we don't like that in britain because cyclists are scum :roll:

Some are, just like some car drivers are. We should not assume innocence or guilt by what a person is driving, riding or wearing.

Frank the tank

I, probably like most people on this forum drive a car aswell as ride a bike. I find cycling makes you more aware of cyclist/motorcyclists etc. In otherwords it makes you a more considerate driver.

Having said that I've seen many examples of awful driving and equally awful cycling.

The fact of the matter is cyclist are bottom of the road vulnarability "food chain". Or should that be top, well, you know what I mean.

It's not law changes that are required its attitude changes that are required.

Hope the rider in the OP is o.k. sounds nasty. As for the lorry driver, ubelieveable, the man should be lowered feet first into a wood chipper.

robdaykin

dilemna wrote:

A car is not a weapon it's a means of transport. A gun on the other han will always be a weapon.

Not true. A gun is a means of defence, a means of providing food, similarly a knife is an item of cutlery. A baseball bat is not a weapon, till it's swinging at your head. The identification of weapon lies in the intent to cause violence, not in the inherent nature of the item. Cars are often weapons. Using it to force behaviour from another road user, such as intimidating them into pulling over, through cutting up or tail gating is using a car as a weapon. The fact it's a lethal one to a pedestrian or cyclist (or even motorist) on the other end of it, with the intent of violence or intimidation, should carry the same legal weight as using a knife or a gun.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people

works for me just as well substituting cars for guns.

dilemna

robdaykin wrote:

dilemna wrote:

A car is not a weapon it's a means of transport. A gun on the other han will always be a weapon.

Not true. A gun is a means of defence, a means of providing food, similarly a knife is an item of cutlery. A baseball bat is not a weapon, till it's swinging at your head. The identification of weapon lies in the intent to cause violence, not in the inherent nature of the item. Cars are often weapons. Using it to force behaviour from another road user, such as intimidating them into pulling over, through cutting up or tail gating is using a car as a weapon. The fact it's a lethal one to a pedestrian or cyclist (or even motorist) on the other end of it, with the intent of violence or intimidation, should carry the same legal weight as using a knife or a gun.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people

works for me just as well substituting cars for guns.

It is not possible to argue with such ignorance :roll: .