zipp 404 vs mavic cosmic carbone slr

ginger J
ginger J Posts: 68
edited August 2009 in Road buying advice
Hi.
I asked this a while ago but am now in a position to part with some cash :D

So, what are people's thoughts. I want clincher for the covenience. Like the look of both wheelsets so would really appreciate anyones advice, experience, thoughts.....

Cheers

J

Comments

  • chriskempton
    chriskempton Posts: 1,245
    What for?

    Zipps are lighter but at a price. Mavics are more solid.
  • Zipp 404 clinchers
      - Not that stiff - especially on the rear. Whether this matters depends on your weight and intended use. The tubular 404s are better and 2009 are better than 2008 and earlier because of deeper flanges on the hub. 2010 rims are also beefier for the 303s but not sure if the 404 rims will be changed in line with the 303s. - Not that light (in clincher) - Nicely aero - Nice smooth hubs - Overpriced - you can nearly get Boras at that price (and why would you get clinchers over the identically priced tubular 404s? Maybe if you're a triathlete... ;-))
    Mavic Cosmic SLRs
      - Fairly durable (but don't shift your RD into the spokes on the first ride...) - Not that light - Better than a shallow rim but the giant spoke holes are not good for aerodynamics. I haven't seen any numbers versus the SL but it's likely to be significant - They look nice and make a nice whooshy noise so anyone you're trying to attack knows you're coming - So-so Mavic hubs - Overpriced!
    The Cosmic SLs or Premiums (if you have to have clinchers), 2009 404 tubulars or Cosmic Carbone Pro (tub version if you can still find it) would all be as good for less (or better for the same price). Sorry not to be more enthuiastic but neither are great wheels... On the bright side, if you spend £750 on Cosmic Premiums/SLs, you have £750 left for something else and aren't sacrificing a great deal apart from aesthetics and having the latest thing (with the SLRs anyway).
  • ginger J
    ginger J Posts: 68
    I'm gonna be using them on my tarmac for triathlon, sportive, road races....
    My weight is 68kg.
    I use my bike everyday so want clinchers for the enevitable puncture repair. Also needs to be robust enough for london roads.......
  • Mavic SLs then! :-)
  • gabriel959
    gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    Why don’t you get a cheap clincher training set and spend some good money on some tubulars for racing?
    x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
    Commuting / Winter rides - Jamis Renegade Expert
    Pootling / Offroad - All-City Macho Man Disc
    Fast rides Cannondale SuperSix Ultegra
  • aarw
    aarw Posts: 448
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Why don’t you get a cheap clincher training set and spend some good money on some tubulars for racing?

    +1
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    Mavic SLs then! :-)

    +1 - Ksyrium SLs are a great light and strong wheelset.
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    Mavic SLs then! :-)

    +1 - Ksyrium SLs are a great light, overpriced, unaero and strong wheelset.

    Fixed :wink:
    I like bikes...

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  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    Here are a couple debate threads on these wheels

    http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... =3&t=61184

    http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... =3&t=60811

    It were me, it would be a hard choice. Some say the Mavics are not that aero, but there again I've heard of a few scare stories about Zipp wheels. The 808s are lovely though ...
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    Mavic SLs then! :-)

    +1 - Ksyrium SLs are a great light, overpriced, unaero and strong wheelset.

    Fixed :wink:

    Such a tinker red. :roll: But they still nice wheels. No really.
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    Mavic SLs then! :-)

    +1 - Ksyrium SLs are a great not-so-light, overpriced, unaero and strong wheelset.

    Fixed :wink:

    Such a tinker red. :roll: But they still nice wheels. No really.

    Fixed again :wink:

    TBH that's the problem with 95% of Factory built wheels though- I'd probably recommend some decent handbuilt, if you could live without the bling factor of factory wheels.
    I like bikes...

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  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    aarw wrote:
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Why don’t you get a cheap clincher training set and spend some good money on some tubulars for racing?

    +1

    +2
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I'm still having major dilemnas over aero wheels...

    Need to be bought from my shop so things like Planet X, Wheelsmith etc are out :(

    I thought I had settled on Zipp 404/808 tubs but I keep hearing nasty whispers going round about them...
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    NapoleonD wrote:
    I'm still having major dilemnas over aero wheels...

    Need to be bought from my shop so things like Planet X, Wheelsmith etc are out :(

    I thought I had settled on Zipp 404/808 tubs but I keep hearing nasty whispers going round about them...

    I would ask you if you want them just to ride around with them or actually for the intended use? Guess it really doesn't make much difference. You want them, or you want them. Ignore this post.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I want them for TTs and Flat races.











    and cos they look cool
  • Mavic SLs then! :-)

    +1 - Ksyrium SLs are a great light, overpriced, unaero and strong wheelset.

    Fixed :wink:

    Oi! I meant Cosmic SLs! I wouldn't recommend those other ones :-)
  • NapoleonD wrote:
    I'm still having major dilemnas over aero wheels...

    Need to be bought from my shop so things like Planet X, Wheelsmith etc are out :(

    I thought I had settled on Zipp 404/808 tubs but I keep hearing nasty whispers going round about them...

    Nasty whispers? What exactly?

    Try to get a set from the US as one wheelbuilder I rate has seen a few problems with Zipps built by the UK distributor. Also, if you're over 80kg get 2009 or later with the stiffer rear. And 808 over 404 any day for TT and flat racing and posing
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I will be getting a set from my LBS due to a particular financial arrangement with them.

    I've just heard on the interweb people saying that Zipps have some QA issues. Although they tend to be from non-owners.
  • chriskempton
    chriskempton Posts: 1,245
    I briefly owned some 404s and thought the hub bearings would have been disappointing on a £100 wheelset. Maybe I was just unlucky.

    They did look the nuts though. :(
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    There are new hubs in the 2009 models that are supposed to be a big improvement...

    I just keep thinking DA but the clinchers are heavy and the tubs are more expensive...
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    NapoleonD wrote:
    There are new hubs in the 2009 models that are supposed to be a big improvement...

    I just keep thinking DA but the clinchers are heavy and the tubs are more expensive...

    I have to say that wouldn't buy the "big improvement" in hubs. How much of an improvement can they make? Can you actually say that you would notice a hub improvement? What kind of guidelines would someone use? "Big improvement"?
    So, they have been selling junk, previously? I'm thinking DA myself. I have never been disappointed with a Shimano product as yet. I'm sure there is a horror story or two out there, but for my money............
  • NapoleonD wrote:
    I will be getting a set from my LBS due to a particular financial arrangement with them.

    I've just heard on the interweb people saying that Zipps have some QA issues. Although they tend to be from non-owners.

    Historically they have been a liability (rims cracking etc) which has left a long legacy of forum regurgitation about broken Zipps but they are now pretty good. They are also fairly common so relatively speaking you'd expect more bad reports to be swirling around the interweb. Tubulars are also more robust than the clincher construction. You may need to get a decent wheelbuilder to take a look at them if you're not 100% happy with the build but that's no big deal. A set of 808s is on my list but very hard to justify sadly!
  • dennisn wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    There are new hubs in the 2009 models that are supposed to be a big improvement...

    I just keep thinking DA but the clinchers are heavy and the tubs are more expensive...

    I have to say that wouldn't buy the "big improvement" in hubs. How much of an improvement can they make? Can you actually say that you would notice a hub improvement?

    Quite a lot of improvement. Although Zipp hubs are well made and machined to finer tolerances than most, the low rear flange 2008 and before meant the rear lateral stiffness was poor - especially on the clinchers - see data here. There's no doubt a deeper flange will stiffen them up and if you're a sprinter and using them for their intended purpose that helps... Otherwise, yes it's pointless having Zipps and you won't notice the difference. Still, who can get that bothered about a deeper flange, eh...
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I like a deep flange.
  • chriskempton
    chriskempton Posts: 1,245
    dennisn wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    There are new hubs in the 2009 models that are supposed to be a big improvement...

    I just keep thinking DA but the clinchers are heavy and the tubs are more expensive...

    I have to say that wouldn't buy the "big improvement" in hubs. How much of an improvement can they make? Can you actually say that you would notice a hub improvement? What kind of guidelines would someone use? "Big improvement"?
    So, they have been selling junk, previously? I'm thinking DA myself. I have never been disappointed with a Shimano product as yet. I'm sure there is a horror story or two out there, but for my money............

    The hubs on the 2007 clinchers I had (the rear one anyway) had rough bearings after 2 rides. It would be very easy to notice an improvement on that. With the wheels spinning in your hands, I mean. Maybe you wouldn't notice when you're riding, but they're £1500, so I expected better.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    dennisn wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    There are new hubs in the 2009 models that are supposed to be a big improvement...

    I just keep thinking DA but the clinchers are heavy and the tubs are more expensive...

    I have to say that wouldn't buy the "big improvement" in hubs. How much of an improvement can they make? Can you actually say that you would notice a hub improvement? What kind of guidelines would someone use? "Big improvement"?
    So, they have been selling junk, previously? I'm thinking DA myself. I have never been disappointed with a Shimano product as yet. I'm sure there is a horror story or two out there, but for my money............

    The hubs on the 2007 clinchers I had (the rear one anyway) had rough bearings after 2 rides.

    2 rides? Rough bearings? How did you determine this? I going to assume that you took or sent them back to the seller immediately? Or had you yourself attempted some sort of bearing adjustment before your first ride? I guess I'm saying I don't buy the "two rides equals trashed bearings" story.
  • chriskempton
    chriskempton Posts: 1,245
    dennisn wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    There are new hubs in the 2009 models that are supposed to be a big improvement...

    I just keep thinking DA but the clinchers are heavy and the tubs are more expensive...

    I have to say that wouldn't buy the "big improvement" in hubs. How much of an improvement can they make? Can you actually say that you would notice a hub improvement? What kind of guidelines would someone use? "Big improvement"?
    So, they have been selling junk, previously? I'm thinking DA myself. I have never been disappointed with a Shimano product as yet. I'm sure there is a horror story or two out there, but for my money............

    The hubs on the 2007 clinchers I had (the rear one anyway) had rough bearings after 2 rides.

    2 rides? Rough bearings? How did you determine this? I going to assume that you took or sent them back to the seller immediately? Or had you yourself attempted some sort of bearing adjustment before your first ride? I guess I'm saying I don't buy the "two rides equals trashed bearings" story.

    What a strange post Dennis...

    I determined they were rough by spinning them round in my hands and feeling the vibrations emanating from the grinding of uneven bearing surfaces.

    I actually was buying them second hand, but the condition of the wheels in all other respects was entirely consistent with the seller's assurances that they'd done 2 rides (he was a trusted clubmate). I was nonetheless quite happy to buy the wheels as they were, because he gave me an excellent deal.

    I'd not gone blundering around adjusting the bearings before I rode them (why would i want to do that?) and caused the issue myself.

    I didn't say the bearings were trashed, I said they were rough. I also said I think I may have been unlucky.

    Just my experience of the wheels, that's all...