Olympic sports 2012, with reference to women's boxing

iainment

So there's going to be women's boxing at the London Games.

I think this to be wrong, imho boxing should not be on the games at all, male or female.

I'd also axe diving,synchro swimming, basketball, equestrian sports, fencing, soccer, gymnastics, handball, judo, modern pentathlon, sailing, shooting, table tennis, tennis, taekwondo, and wrestling. From the winter games I'd get rid of figure skating, ice dancing, freestyle skiing and snowboarding.

Whilst at it I'd chop the following from the Olympic "recognised" sports, air sports, bandy, baseball, billiard sports, boules, bowling, bridge, chess, dance sport, cricket, floorball, golf, karate, lifesaving, motorcycle sport, mountaineering and climbing, polo, powerboating, rollersports, sumo, surfing, tug of war, underwater sports, water skiining and wushu.

Not bad for a Monday's work I think.

This afternoon I'll think about what should come in for these, croquet anyone?

CHRISNOIR

iainment wrote:

This afternoon I'll think about what should come in for these, croquet anyone?

This...

Le Commentateur

The biggest issue may be the scheduling. Boxing already takes up the entire fortnight just for all the men's matches in the numerous weight categories. In fact they might actually start slightly earlier than the official opening day.

BigG67

iainment, I'm intrigued as to why you've picked the sports you have for dropping from the games?

Also the recognised sports - which I wonder do you mean those accepted by UKsport? 'Cos if you do then there's strict criteria for acceptance but no limits to the number unlike the Games. They're vetted to allow them to apply for funding from Gov/Lottery (or not if refused).

iainment

BigG67 wrote:

iainment, I'm intrigued as to why you've picked the sports you have for dropping from the games?

Also the recognised sports - which I wonder do you mean those accepted by UKsport? 'Cos if you do then there's strict criteria for acceptance but no limits to the number unlike the Games. They're vetted to allow them to apply for funding from Gov/Lottery (or not if refused).

The ones I dropped were either personal prejudice or because they are big enough not to need the games. I can't stand sports that get marked for style for instance.

The recognised sports come from the IOC list.

geoff_ss

iainment wrote:

So there's going to be women's boxing at the London Games.

I think this to be wrong, imho boxing should not be on the games at all, male or female.

I'd also axe diving,synchro swimming, basketball, equestrian sports, fencing, soccer, gymnastics, handball, judo, modern pentathlon, sailing, shooting, table tennis, tennis, taekwondo, and wrestling. From the winter games I'd get rid of figure skating, ice dancing, freestyle skiing and snowboarding.

Whilst at it I'd chop the following from the Olympic "recognised" sports, air sports, bandy, baseball, billiard sports, boules, bowling, bridge, chess, dance sport, cricket, floorball, golf, karate, lifesaving, motorcycle sport, mountaineering and climbing, polo, powerboating, rollersports, sumo, surfing, tug of war, underwater sports, water skiining and wushu.

Not bad for a Monday's work I think.

This afternoon I'll think about what should come in for these, croquet anyone?

Yes, you seem to be anti just about everything.

I find boxing a somewhat repulsive exhibition but amateur boxing is better in that respect than professional. However I wouldn't want to ban it.

The only sports I'd like to see excluded are any that include an element of opinion in the results. For me it's faster, further, higher, more etc. ie just those that are decided by independent measurement.

I do wonder what your objections are to (say) sailing or air sports (which aren't in the Olympics anyway) I ask as a former dinghy sailor and glider pilot. I find some of your other exclusions somewhat bizarre too. How odd that you didn't include cycling.

Geoff

iainment

Geoff_SS wrote:

iainment wrote:

So there's going to be women's boxing at the London Games.

I think this to be wrong, imho boxing should not be on the games at all, male or female.

I'd also axe diving,synchro swimming, basketball, equestrian sports, fencing, soccer, gymnastics, handball, judo, modern pentathlon, sailing, shooting, table tennis, tennis, taekwondo, and wrestling. From the winter games I'd get rid of figure skating, ice dancing, freestyle skiing and snowboarding.

Whilst at it I'd chop the following from the Olympic "recognised" sports, air sports, bandy, baseball, billiard sports, boules, bowling, bridge, chess, dance sport, cricket, floorball, golf, karate, lifesaving, motorcycle sport, mountaineering and climbing, polo, powerboating, rollersports, sumo, surfing, tug of war, underwater sports, water skiining and wushu.

Not bad for a Monday's work I think.

This afternoon I'll think about what should come in for these, croquet anyone?

Yes, you seem to be anti just about everything.

I find boxing a somewhat repulsive exhibition but amateur boxing is better in that respect than professional. However I wouldn't want to ban it.

The only sports I'd like to see excluded are any that include an element of opinion in the results. For me it's faster, further, higher, more etc. ie just those that are decided by independent measurement.

I do wonder what your objections are to (say) sailing or air sports (which aren't in the Olympics anyway) I ask as a former dinghy sailor and glider pilot. I find some of your other exclusions somewhat bizarre too. How odd that you didn't include cycling.

Geoff

I left in archery, athletics, badminton, canoeing, cycling, hockey, rowing, triathlon, volleyball, annd weightlifting for the summer games, and biathlon, bobsleigh, curling, ice hockey, luge, speed skating, nordic and alpine skiing for the winter games.
I'm not anti everything and I am happy for anyone that enjoys their sport even if I don't like it.
I'm just a bit anti the games forever growing like topsy.

iainment

and I left pelota, netball, orienteering, racquetball, rugby, softball and squash on the recognised list. Although on reflection I'd take rugby and softball off that list.

iainment

Geoff_SS wrote:

iainment wrote:

So there's going to be women's boxing at the London Games.

I think this to be wrong, imho boxing should not be on the games at all, male or female.

I'd also axe diving,synchro swimming, basketball, equestrian sports, fencing, soccer, gymnastics, handball, judo, modern pentathlon, sailing, shooting, table tennis, tennis, taekwondo, and wrestling. From the winter games I'd get rid of figure skating, ice dancing, freestyle skiing and snowboarding.

Whilst at it I'd chop the following from the Olympic "recognised" sports, air sports, bandy, baseball, billiard sports, boules, bowling, bridge, chess, dance sport, cricket, floorball, golf, karate, lifesaving, motorcycle sport, mountaineering and climbing, polo, powerboating, rollersports, sumo, surfing, tug of war, underwater sports, water skiining and wushu.

Not bad for a Monday's work I think.

This afternoon I'll think about what should come in for these, croquet anyone?

Yes, you seem to be anti just about everything.

I find boxing a somewhat repulsive exhibition but amateur boxing is better in that respect than professional. However I wouldn't want to ban it.

The only sports I'd like to see excluded are any that include an element of opinion in the results. For me it's faster, further, higher, more etc. ie just those that are decided by independent measurement.

I do wonder what your objections are to (say) sailing or air sports (which aren't in the Olympics anyway) I ask as a former dinghy sailor and glider pilot. I find some of your other exclusions somewhat bizarre too. How odd that you didn't include cycling.

Geoff

I have sailed and loved it - just don't see it as a olympic sport. Never been gliding but suspect I'd enjoy that too but again not a sport to me.

TheStone

Here's what I'd take out:

1) Non Sports
A sport is defined simply as anything that could potentially be won by someone fatter than me.
(i.e. darts). This would probably rule out Archery and Golf.

2) Subjective.
Take out any sport that needs to be voted on or judged in some way. Ice skating, diving, gymnastics etc.
You will be given the chance to reinvent your sport to be objective.
For example: ski jump is half distance, half style points. They could make this all distance, but you
have to land and ski to end.
I'll be kind and allow boxing as the judging is for safety reasons - they can't fight all night

3) Not Highest Prize in your Sport.
Take out tennis, football etc. If you don't spend 4 years planning for the Olympics, you shouldn't be there.
I might allow track cycling and boxing as they're kind of different sports from their larger related ones.

4) Money
Take out any sports where daddy can buy you a medal. Horses, maybe sailing, probably golf.
Change track cycling, so all on the same bike.

5) Deliberately Slow
Take out any event where you're not going the fastest you can. Walking, most swimming events. (butterfly ffs)

... wouldn't leave too much

teagar

iainment wrote:

I have sailed and loved it - just don't see it as a olympic sport. Never been gliding but suspect I'd enjoy that too but again not a sport to me.

Ever raced sailing boats using the olympic courses?

It's definitely a sport.

The olympics is about being the pinnacle of all sports, particularly those sports which do not enjoy a high enough interest all year round to have a professional season which is the sport's primary focus.

Definitely in favour of women's boxing...

I still wait for the day that there will be the same number of female as male competitions though.

teagar

TheStone wrote:

Here's what I'd take out:



5) Deliberately Slow
Take out any event where you're not going the fastest you can. Walking, most swimming events. (butterfly ffs)

You'd have to take out sweep-oar rowing as well then. Skulling is much faster.

afx237vi

Le Commentateur wrote:

The biggest issue may be the scheduling. Boxing already takes up the entire fortnight just for all the men's matches in the numerous weight categories. In fact they might actually start slightly earlier than the official opening day.

There are only 3 weight divisions for the women, and one of the men's divisions is being dropped to make room.

I don't understand the objection to women's boxing being added to the Games. Most of the anti- comments I've seen on TV or read online seem to be confusing amateur boxing and pro boxing, both of which are completely different.

Amateur boxing is far more about skill than brute force. The boxers wear headguards, the women wear chest guards, and the gloves are padded more than in pro boxing, and the bouts are only four rounds of two minutes (as opposed to 12 rounds of 3 minutes for pro boxing). It's virtually a different sport.

Furthermore, a lot of people seem to object to women boxing, but have no problem with women doing tekwondo or judo at the Olympics? Taekwondo, where the sole objective is to kick your opponent in the head, instead of punch. Very odd.

spen666

TheStone wrote:

...5) Deliberately Slow
Take out any event where you're not going the fastest you can. Walking, most swimming events. (butterfly ffs)

... wouldn't leave too much

That's most distance events, The Madison on the track etc

They are not going flat out except for little bits of the event - eg the sprint for the finish

TheStone

teagar wrote:

TheStone wrote:

Here's what I'd take out:



5) Deliberately Slow
Take out any event where you're not going the fastest you can. Walking, most swimming events. (butterfly ffs)

You'd have to take out sweep-oar rowing as well then. Skulling is much faster.

Yep, and why have one event with a little man in the front and one without?
One with 2 sticks each, one with 1 each. They're just making up events.

I'll add another rule

6) Global Participation
Must be played by a number of people in a number of countries. Maybe make the medals
available some proportion of that?

.... that might rule out women's boxing ...

teagar

afx237vi wrote:

Amateur boxing is far more about skill than brute force. The boxers wear headguards, the women wear chest guards, and the gloves are padded more than in pro boxing, and the bouts are only four rounds of two minutes (as opposed to 12 rounds of 3 minutes for pro boxing). It's virtually a different sport.

They do have to box a tournament though, which can be a lot of fights close together if you do well, rather than a big one off fight every other month.

afx237vi

TheStone wrote:

3) Not Highest Prize in your Sport.
Take out tennis, football etc. If you don't spend 4 years planning for the Olympics, you shouldn't be there.
I might allow track cycling and boxing as they're kind of different sports from their larger related ones.

Road cycling would have to go, then.

I agree with this in theory, but there's always the tricky problem of the women's football tournament and the women's road cycling. Tennis can definitely go...

teagar

TheStone wrote:

teagar wrote:

TheStone wrote:

Here's what I'd take out:



5) Deliberately Slow
Take out any event where you're not going the fastest you can. Walking, most swimming events. (butterfly ffs)

You'd have to take out sweep-oar rowing as well then. Skulling is much faster.

Yep, and why have one event with a little man in the front and one without?
One with 2 sticks each, one with 1 each. They're just making up events.

It's the back of the boat.... :roll:

afx237vi

teagar wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Amateur boxing is far more about skill than brute force. The boxers wear headguards, the women wear chest guards, and the gloves are padded more than in pro boxing, and the bouts are only four rounds of two minutes (as opposed to 12 rounds of 3 minutes for pro boxing). It's virtually a different sport.

They do have to box a tournament though, which can be a lot of fights close together if you do well, rather than a big one off fight every other month.

True, but my main objection is that certain commentators were painting a picture of women getting battered to a bloody pulp all in the pursuit of Olympic glory. That just doesn't happen, even in big mismatches.

TheStone

spen666 wrote:

TheStone wrote:

...5) Deliberately Slow
Take out any event where you're not going the fastest you can. Walking, most swimming events. (butterfly ffs)

... wouldn't leave too much

That's most distance events, The Madison on the track etc

They are not going flat out except for little bits of the event - eg the sprint for the finish

No, I'm meaning the fastest you can complete that event in. If it's a foot race over 40km, it's faster to run than walk. Doesn't matter that you go slower than 100m pace.

I'm happy to allow different distances (within reason), but not a slower style than the best available. Why have backwards swimming, but not running??? Again, making up events.

Yep, the Madison would have to go - no harm done.

teagar

afx237vi wrote:

teagar wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Amateur boxing is far more about skill than brute force. The boxers wear headguards, the women wear chest guards, and the gloves are padded more than in pro boxing, and the bouts are only four rounds of two minutes (as opposed to 12 rounds of 3 minutes for pro boxing). It's virtually a different sport.

They do have to box a tournament though, which can be a lot of fights close together if you do well, rather than a big one off fight every other month.

True, but my main objection is that certain commentators were painting a picture of women getting battered to a bloody pulp all in the pursuit of Olympic glory. That just doesn't happen, even in big mismatches.

Yeah.

If men can get battered to a bloody pulp though why can't women?

As long as you don't start getting tag-team mixed doubles boxing.

TheStone

afx237vi wrote:

TheStone wrote:

3) Not Highest Prize in your Sport.
Take out tennis, football etc. If you don't spend 4 years planning for the Olympics, you shouldn't be there.
I might allow track cycling and boxing as they're kind of different sports from their larger related ones.

Road cycling would have to go, then.

I agree with this in theory, but there's always the tricky problem of the women's football tournament and the women's road cycling. Tennis can definitely go...

Yep, as much as I like the Olympic RR, it would have to go.
Good point on the women's sports. Needs some more thinking.

afx237vi

teagar wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

True, but my main objection is that certain commentators were painting a picture of women getting battered to a bloody pulp all in the pursuit of Olympic glory. That just doesn't happen, even in big mismatches.

Yeah.

If men can get battered to a bloody pulp though why can't women?

As long as you don't start getting tag-team mixed doubles boxing.

Well there's a women's branch of MMA now, so the opportunity already exists...

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/16082009/ ... n-mma.html

My point about amateur boxing is that no-one gets battered to a bloody pulp.

AidanR

It's the back of the boat.... Rolling Eyes

Incorrect. The 8 will have a cox in the stern, but then you don't have coxless 8s. 4s, however, will almost always have the cox in the bow, and this is where the comparison is being made.

BigG67

I also struggle with judgement based sports - i.e. those that are marked rather than timed for placings. And get the overall point....

However, if there's a message here from the history of the Olympics, ancient games included wrestling and gymnastics. IIRC it wasn't about winning but about a celebration of physical prowess.

BUT there is a really grown-up money part to this as well.

Olympic inclusion opens significant public funding for development of a sport in a country and can be a vehicle for good. Sport has a role in healthier lifestyles, law and order, inward investment and general national pride, infact I got to attend a conference recently that made a case for the impact of sport on everything from world peace to the environment. Some with and some without much success.

Without inclusion this opportunity would be much more narrow.

But the bigger message is that the Olympics can be a vehicle for greater good and some sports open doors and bring new counties and people to the family.





Then again I NEVER got synco swimming..........

BigG67

TheStone wrote:

teagar wrote:

TheStone wrote:

Here's what I'd take out:



5) Deliberately Slow
Take out any event where you're not going the fastest you can. Walking, most swimming events. (butterfly ffs)

You'd have to take out sweep-oar rowing as well then. Skulling is much faster.

Yep, and why have one event with a little man in the front and one without?
One with 2 sticks each, one with 1 each. They're just making up events.

I'll add another rule

6) Global Participation
Must be played by a number of people in a number of countries. Maybe make the medals
available some proportion of that?

.... that might rule out women's boxing ...

There are guidelines on participation levels and with the Committee voting it does stop a single country getting a sport in that suits them.

BigG67

I'm glad on one mentioned the amateur issue. There are VERY few sports that define amateur that I'm aware of - boxing, golf...I'm sure that there migh be some more but not many?

Sure some are by their nature amateur because they can't make money but the "Olympic ideal" was long ago lost and now you can make a living from athletics, sailing, swimming etc etc

The Chingford Skinhead

Boxing is an excellent sport. It requires fitness, flexibility, strategic thinking and a great deal of skill. It is also good for its local community as it regularly takes troubled kids and channels their energy in a disciplined way. You'll always have the odd exception but boxing clubs cause far less problems in local areas than rugby clubs with their associated drinking and violence - sorry, wrong class, it would be violence in the case of boxers, it's high jinx for rugby.

Boxing, both ameteur and professional results in less serious injuries and tatalities than rugby and horse riding events - despite (or because of) its violent intent. But its catchment area is generally the poor which is why the well off don't understand it. Why else would the rubgy playing doctors of the BMA always want to ban it while turning a blind eye (sometimes literally) to the sports that they and their kids do...

teagar

AidanR wrote:

It's the back of the boat.... Rolling Eyes

Incorrect. The 8 will have a cox in the stern, but then you don't have coxless 8s. 4s, however, will almost always have the cox in the bow, and this is where the comparison is being made.

Last time I coxed in a race we weren't allowed to race in a bow-loaded boat for safety reasons!

afx237vi

The Chingford Skinhead wrote:

Boxing is an excellent sport. It requires fitness, flexibility, strategic thinking and a great deal of skill. It is also good for its local community as it regularly takes troubled kids and channels their energy in a disciplined way. You'll always have the odd exception but boxing clubs cause far less problems in local areas than rugby clubs with their associated drinking and violence - sorry, wrong class, it would be violence in the case of boxers, it's high jinx for rugby.

Boxing, both ameteur and professional results in less serious injuries and tatalities than rugby and horse riding events - despite (or because of) its violent intent. But its catchment area is generally the poor which is why the well off don't understand it. Why else would the rubgy playing doctors of the BMA always want to ban it while turning a blind eye (sometimes literally) to the sports that they and their kids do...

Wow, it must be difficult riding a bike with that enormous chip on your shoulder. Not everyone who plays rugby is a Pimms-drinking toff, and I suppose not every boxer is a lovable salt-of-the-earth rascal.

ride_whenever

teagar wrote:

AidanR wrote:

It's the back of the boat.... Rolling Eyes

Incorrect. The 8 will have a cox in the stern, but then you don't have coxless 8s. 4s, however, will almost always have the cox in the bow, and this is where the comparison is being made.

Last time I coxed in a race we weren't allowed to race in a bow-loaded boat for safety reasons!

What was that, the only time I can think of that bow-loaders are banned are bumps racing...