Is it a sport if computers are supporting us?

bluechair84

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/components/gear-shifters/product/dura-ace-di2-transmission-34981

Discuss!?

I'm all for aid in the real world, ABS, traction control, but surely a sport is man pitched against man? Is this a step closer to torque monitors and automatic shifting? I'm sure I heard of ABS for mountain bikes recently... I love the evolution of materials and design in a bike, but Is the inclusion of electronic aid really what mountain biking is all about? Is this just putting part of the skill of the rider in the hands of the pre-programmed, thus removing some of the competitive components of riding?

I say RUN AWAY! I mean CYCLE AWAY! Un-assisted!!

Danlube

I understand what you are saying. However, i like the idea of an electronic drivetrain, keeping the manual shifting though of course.

Daz555

If you want ABS on the cheap, just go back to cantilever brakes.

Skonk

I agree with you but I think the electronic shifting doesn't cross the line.

You still tell it when to shift, it just removes some of the machanical problems associated with shifting that arn't really in the riders control.

Is it really worth £1700 though? I dont think so personally.

paul.skibum

You are replacing a cable with a wire - the effect is the same just smoother which can only help reduce wear. The gears aren't shifting for you.

Danlube

paul.skibum wrote:

You are replacing a cable with a wire - the effect is the same just smoother which can only help reduce wear. The gears aren't shifting for you.

No, its wireless.

paulrockliffe

The controls might be wireless (not sure), but there's definitely power cables from the battery to each deraileur.

I quite like it, I doubt the UCI would ever allow automatic transmission, but it would be a usefull training aid to be able to chose a cadence and have the bike maintain it for you.

When is someone going to come up with a good two wheel drive system for us off roaders though?

Sarnian

I like the Idea, although It will probably be a very long time before us mortals get hold of this.

At the end of the day you still have to push a button to make It shift, so you can still make a bad gear selection, It's just making It a little smother and quicker.

Belv

It doesn't make going up Ventoux any easier (in fact, 50g harder), so still a sport for me.

The Northern Monkey

looks alright... what happens if your batteries run out though?

geordiefreerider

If you read the article benj, the battery lasts about 1500 miles and only takes an hour to charge !! Which isnt bad I reckon !!

geordiefreerider

paulrockliffe wrote:

The controls might be wireless (not sure), but there's definitely power cables from the battery to each deraileur.

I quite like it, I doubt the UCI would ever allow automatic transmission, but it would be a usefull training aid to be able to chose a cadence and have the bike maintain it for you.

When is someone going to come up with a good two wheel drive system for us off roaders though?

Found this 2 wheel drive bike http://www.abikestore.com/Merchant2/mer ... e_Code=abs

paulrockliffe

Thanks, how does that work? Looks like a Halfords special with some spurious claims tacked on the discription?

It would need a direct link form the rear hub to the front hub, with some sort of limited-slip differential perhaps, otherwise how do you keep both wheels at the same speed relative to pedals?

That 50g weight penalty, surely the pros would just use a less OTT battery and charge it a bit more often?

RealMan

Theyve designed this new one so it warns you like a week in advance I think about the batteries going low. The 50g extra weight or whatever isntt important at all, as the UCI weight limit is easily attainable. They will just shave 50g off with a lighter stem or something.

What I do like about the new Di2 is how it can adjust automatically to stop chain rub while youre riding, a very neat feature. I've used it, and it is very very smooth.

However, I am interested in knowing if it is wireless - what if two people with it are riding next to each other? Would be very interesting.

Lapierre t 400

looks like a wired system to me look at 1.15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXVhm3xakq0
If it is a wireless system I would thing every single one runs on a slightly diffrent frequency

RealMan

Lapierre t 400 wrote:

If it is a wireless system I would thing every single one runs on a slightly diffrent frequency

Great, youve just ruined the image of people changing other riders gears without them knowing.

bluechair84

Skonk wrote:

I agree with you but I think the electronic shifting doesn't cross the line.

You still tell it when to shift, it just removes some of the machanical problems associated with shifting that arn't really in the riders control.

Is it really worth £1700 though? I dont think so personally.

I'm strangely hypocritical about this... On the one hand I see weight loss, more efficient suspension and improvement in brakes as valuable evolutionary steps in biking... But when it comes to electronic interference I start to get a bit 'old git syndrome'...
I guess I see the electronic aids as too great-a-step from the bread and butter of our sport. I can see how things like this will evolve to eventually give a factory-sealed advantage. But then, so does the engineering behind the rest of the bike. We don't all ride steel rigids now.

It just ain't natural is it! I get far more reward from riding my hardtail because great riding is down to me and less to do with what I've bought into.

The Northern Monkey

geordiefreerider wrote:

If you read the article benj, the battery lasts about 1500 miles and only takes an hour to charge !! Which isnt bad I reckon !!

But i'd forget!! my laptop dies on me almost every other day

geordiefreerider

^^^lol yeah my phones the same !!

rolf_f

bigbenj_08 wrote:

looks alright... what happens if your batteries run out though?

You have a nice, albeit very expensive, single speeder!

timthetinyhorse

Rolf F wrote:

bigbenj_08 wrote:

looks alright... what happens if your batteries run out though?

You have a nice, albeit very expensive, single speeder!

/\/\/\/\ha ha class/\/\/\/\

i like the idea of this but i would imagine the time scale before us normal riders get hold of such a system being huge!

rob

lesz42

i reckon three generations down the product line, its will be cheap ( as in normal XTR prices)

llamafarmer

bluechair84 wrote:

I'm strangely hypocritical about this... On the one hand I see weight loss, more efficient suspension and improvement in brakes as valuable evolutionary steps in biking... But when it comes to electronic interference I start to get a bit 'old git syndrome'...
I guess I see the electronic aids as too great-a-step from the bread and butter of our sport. I can see how things like this will evolve to eventually give a factory-sealed advantage. But then, so does the engineering behind the rest of the bike. We don't all ride steel rigids now.

It just ain't natural is it! I get far more reward from riding my hardtail because great riding is down to me and less to do with what I've bought into.

It's not really an electronic aid though is it, it won't make anyone a better rider as it stands, it's just an improvement on the current system of gear shifting. I've always thought the future of MTBing would be hub gears and/or systems like the Hammerschmidt, so this may be the biking equivalent of the minidisc anyway. It's not going to be cheap, but nor is it a massive leap forward imo. Nice piece of technology though.

bluechair84

llamafarmer wrote:

bluechair84 wrote:

I'm strangely hypocritical about this... On the one hand I see weight loss, more efficient suspension and improvement in brakes as valuable evolutionary steps in biking... But when it comes to electronic interference I start to get a bit 'old git syndrome'...
I guess I see the electronic aids as too great-a-step from the bread and butter of our sport. I can see how things like this will evolve to eventually give a factory-sealed advantage. But then, so does the engineering behind the rest of the bike. We don't all ride steel rigids now.

It just ain't natural is it! I get far more reward from riding my hardtail because great riding is down to me and less to do with what I've bought into.

It's not really an electronic aid though is it, it won't make anyone a better rider as it stands, it's just an improvement on the current system of gear shifting. I've always thought the future of MTBing would be hub gears and/or systems like the Hammerschmidt, so this may be the biking equivalent of the minidisc anyway. It's not going to be cheap, but nor is it a massive leap forward imo. Nice piece of technology though.

I can see how using electronics on a bike will start to open doors to new things, with a torque monitor in the rear cassette you could have auto gears. You are carrying a battery to run devices related to the running of the bike. Isn't part of biking supposed to be us, with some engineering, and nature enjoying being away from the hub-bub of modern day essentials like electricity? I guess though this isn't for 'us' though is it, not for the meer mortals Sarnian Racers only so they can have their XX groupie and electric gears :shock:
I'm all for tech advance and stagnating with the old isn't good for the sport. But brining power to a bike; battery operated aids (surely leading to processor operated aids one-day) makes me cringe!

Daz555

Electronic shifting is a far smaller step than indexed gears. I have no problem with it at all. Not convinced that moving to something that needs batteries is the way forward though.

Perhaps we'll see hydraulic shifters become mainstream instead.

paulrockliffe

What did you all think of that Cannondale fork with electonically adjustable damping that was about a few years ago?

bluechair84

I missed the 'leccy lefty... It still comes across as a factory set system which gives the rider less to do...
Always thought hydraulic shifting could have been interesting. I'm sure the big S would have experimented with it, would love to know what the barriers were to something like that.

ride_whenever

there is a german company that does hydraulic gears...

MrChuck

paulrockliffe wrote:

What did you all think of that Cannondale fork with electonically adjustable damping that was about a few years ago?

I think K2 had some sort of electronic active suspension a while back too.

paulrockliffe

Yeah they did, I tihnk it was basically an electronic lockout though, once they realised they could use valves to lock out I think it died. There was talk of using it to develop a variable damping system that took feedback from the terrain and adjusted the damping accordingly. I'm all for cool toys and especially cool toys on bike.

bomberesque

llamafarmer wrote:

I've always thought the future of MTBing would be hub gears and/or systems like the Hammerschmidt, so this may be the biking equivalent of the minidisc anyway.

^^ agree

I rekon the future is frame (or BB) mounted gearbox with single or 2 stage belt drive

You could build one today, but they're not light or accessible enough (yet) to do what we need better, cheaper *and* lighter than the systems we have. Like someone once said about the rotary engine "yeah, it does what a piston engine does just as well as a piston engine, but not better and that's just not enough"

btw, iirc Mavic made a wireless gear shifting system some 20 years ago. I expect this new one works better and costs about the same.

/edit; as for some aids being acceptable and some not, I don't really care, so long as its teh riders legs driving the wheels