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markwalker

So the tour of Pendle was won yesterday at an average speed of over 28.2 miles per hour over a hilly 94 mile route.

Is this not directly comparable to the best european race speeds? this is not a Kermeese, Pendle is a great big hill.

Everyone thinks European Cycling has a drugs problem, but maybe we need to re consider our thoughts, afterall these guys are doing this clean!

teagar

markwalker wrote:

So the tour of Pendle was won yesterday at an average speed of over 28.2 miles per hour over a hilly 94 mile route.

Is this not directly comparable to the best european race speeds? this is not a Kermeese, Pendle is a great big hill.

Everyone thinks European Cycling has a drugs problem, but maybe we need to re consider our thoughts, afterall these guys are doing this clean!

Can someone sort out a doping section in this forum. This is getting beyond a joke.

As long as they keep passing the tests I don't really give a sh!t anymore.

Stop it!

attica

teagar wrote:

Stop it!

Actually I think Mark has a very salient point, if these riders are clean, then it is possible to race at these high speeds, therefore we should stop casting aspertions at anybody who is a little bit fast (I'm thinking Bertie on the Verbier here perhaps).

Is it possible that advances is bike technology, dietary and training improvements and the like are improving speeds without any pharmaceutical involvement?

frenchfighter

http://new.britishcycling.org.uk/road/a ... f-Pendle-0

Russell is racing with Candid in Tour of Ireland this year and did so last year.

afx237vi

teagar wrote:

markwalker wrote:

So the tour of Pendle was won yesterday at an average speed of over 28.2 miles per hour over a hilly 94 mile route.

Is this not directly comparable to the best european race speeds? this is not a Kermeese, Pendle is a great big hill.

Everyone thinks European Cycling has a drugs problem, but maybe we need to re consider our thoughts, afterall these guys are doing this clean!

Can someone sort out a doping section in this forum. This is getting beyond a joke.

As long as they keep passing the tests I don't really give a sh!t anymore.

Stop it!

Genuine question, because I don't know the answer - what type of drug testing do they do for Premier Calendar races?

Kléber

teagar wrote:

As long as they keep passing the tests I don't really give a sh!t anymore

Not saying it's the case with the humble Premier Calendar events but burying your head in the sand is one way to let the problem build up until someone dies.

deal

Kléber wrote:

teagar wrote:

As long as they keep passing the tests I don't really give a sh!t anymore

Not saying it's the case with the humble Premier Calendar events but burying your head in the sand is one way to let the problem build up until someone dies.

Once someone dies what incentive is there to make changes which could reveal the extent of past inaction

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

teagar wrote:

As long as they keep passing the tests I don't really give a sh!t anymore

Not saying it's the case with the humble Premier Calendar events but burying your head in the sand is one way to let the problem build up until someone dies.

I think you are being dramatic here other than pass all the relevant tests and have a non suspcious blood passport what more can a rider do ?

teagar

Kléber wrote:

teagar wrote:

As long as they keep passing the tests I don't really give a sh!t anymore

Not saying it's the case with the humble Premier Calendar events but burying your head in the sand is one way to let the problem build up until someone dies.

Eh?

I'm not saying don't test them? I'm not saying don't introduce more tests? I'm saying stop all this relentless, boring, irritating, and frustrating doping insinuations and accusations. Well over half of the threads on the pro-race part of the forum are to do with doping, and it's always the same sh!t.

I'm not burrying my head in the sand for the last time (the amount of times people accuse me of that). You need to be realistic. You can't catch all the dopers clearly, so just try as hard as you can and leave it at that. Don't ruin every race result or any discussion of a race with chat about cheating all the bloody time.

I hate it when people dope as much as the next person, but this constant barrage of dope chat constantly, to the point where people are getting banned from the forum is just beyond the pale.

Why not have a discussion about the actual race, rather than the doping implications of the result?

Eh?

I would contribute to that, but I didn't watch the race.

Kléber

MG and teagar: I was just concerned that some might think that basic testing is all the sport needs and as long as the riders jump through these hoops, all is well. As we know, passing the tests isn't proof of innocence, so just because riders pass tests doesn't mean we stop being vigilant. But this is miles from launching witch hunts!

Instead, the testing process always has to evolve. There's no passport scheme in Britain for example and testing is rare.

For what it's worth, the cost-benefit of doping in the Premier Calendar probably just doesn't stack up, why spend several thousand pounds on CERA when the prize money available is so small. Indeed, this is the Pro section and discussion of Premier Calendar events isn't very big here as they are semi-pro races, with a few full timers but probably the majority of the field are amateurs with day jobs.

graeme_s-2

Attica wrote:

Actually I think Mark has a very salient point, if these riders are clean, then it is possible to race at these high speeds, therefore we should stop casting aspertions at anybody who is a little bit fast (I'm thinking Bertie on the Verbier here perhaps).

Is it possible that advances is bike technology, dietary and training improvements and the like are improving speeds without any pharmaceutical involvement?

I've been thinking about this on and off for a while. There was the oft-repeated phrase of trying to ride on "bread and water" alone. Well "bread and water" have improved somewhat dramatically when you think of the sport and cycle specific energy products that are available to cyclist now. Our understanding of physiology, nutrition and training techniques have also improved dramatically.

When Tom Simpson died cyclists would try to ride up mountains after deliberately dehydrating themselves to lower their weight. Studies now show that dehydration can cause a drop in performance of up to 30% for athletes, and that's just one specific area, think of the gains when these things are all added up.

dave_1

markwalker wrote:

So the tour of Pendle was won yesterday at an average speed of over 28.2 miles per hour over a hilly 94 mile route.

Is this not directly comparable to the best european race speeds? this is not a Kermeese, Pendle is a great big hill.

Everyone thinks European Cycling has a drugs problem, but maybe we need to re consider our thoughts, afterall these guys are doing this clean!

have you done any? Infact do you care? I have...and they were really hard cause the guys in the race were also really good at cycling.

markwalker

Dave_1 wrote:

markwalker wrote:

So the tour of Pendle was won yesterday at an average speed of over 28.2 miles per hour over a hilly 94 mile route.

Is this not directly comparable to the best european race speeds? this is not a Kermeese, Pendle is a great big hill.

Everyone thinks European Cycling has a drugs problem, but maybe we need to re consider our thoughts, afterall these guys are doing this clean!

have you done any? Infact do you care? I have...and they were really hard cause the guys in the race were also really good at cycling.

Whats your point?

LangerDan

Kléber wrote:

For what it's worth, the cost-benefit of doping in the Premier Calendar probably just doesn't stack up, why spend several thousand pounds on CERA when the prize money available is so small. Indeed, this is the Pro section and discussion of Premier Calendar events isn't very big here as they are semi-pro races, with a few full timers but probably the majority of the field are amateurs with day jobs.

The cost /benefit of doping wouldn't add up in most amateur sports but it still occurs. Riico and Pantani were reputedly doping as amateurs as was Geneviève Jeanson. The money involved in womens pro racing is so low as to make them essentially amateur also yet they too have their doping scandals. And IIRC, the Italian police have even found evidence of doping by "mid-field" riders in Gran Fondos.

markwalker

I guess the post was 2 fold and a comment on a perception i have that it seems far more acceptable to question the performance of foreign pros than domestic ones.

As for low level amateur events, there is a growing weight of evidence that it happens, and perhaps the reason it doesnt come up as much as you might expect is that for most, the chances of being tested are almost non existant.

Im not saying there was wide spread ped use in the tour of Pendle, Ive got no idea. What I am saying is that the level of performance seems to me to be similar to performance levels where its widely accepted that drugs are used.

Now either Im wrong and the performance level is wildly different (and i accept there is a step up) or
There is no wide spread ped use in cycling or
The UK scene is probably no better or worse than the continental pro scene.

I hope that cheating at whatever level is contained in a small group that gets whittled down through education and testing.

eh

I think people under estimate the class of some of the top UK riders, the likes of Matt Stephens, both the Downings, John Tanner, and Julian Winn to name a few have all ridden big races and have come out with their heads held high.

However, for the OP to use the original example as evidence of the ProTour being clean is bizarre. I managed an 82 mile road race at an average of 27mph as a 4th Cat?!!!! Which just goes to prove how useless average speed is as an indicator of anything. Only decent way would be to see everyones power and VO2max and even then they aren't conclusive evidence of doping or not (NB: Despite what Lemond says).

markwalker

eh wrote:

I think people under estimate the class of some of the top UK riders, the likes of Matt Stephens, both the Downings, John Tanner, and Julian Winn to name a few have all ridden big races and have come out with their heads held high.

However, for the OP to use the original example as evidence of the ProTour being clean is bizarre. I managed an 82 mile road race at an average of 27mph as a 4th Cat?!!!! Which just goes to prove how useless average speed is as an indicator of anything. Only decent way would be to see everyones power and VO2max and even then they aren't conclusive evidence of doping or not (NB: Despite what Lemond says).

Fair comments, but i bet your 27mph fourth cat race didnt include the nick of pendle several times in the ciruit

dave_1

markwalker wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

markwalker wrote:

So the tour of Pendle was won yesterday at an average speed of over 28.2 miles per hour over a hilly 94 mile route.

Is this not directly comparable to the best european race speeds? this is not a Kermeese, Pendle is a great big hill.

Everyone thinks European Cycling has a drugs problem, but maybe we need to re consider our thoughts, afterall these guys are doing this clean!

have you done any? Infact do you care? I have...and they were really hard cause the guys in the race were also really good at cycling.

Whats your point?

that some people are faster at cycling bicyles than others. Some peope are really good at what they do, no?

dennisn

Dave_1 wrote:

markwalker wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

markwalker wrote:

So the tour of Pendle was won yesterday at an average speed of over 28.2 miles per hour over a hilly 94 mile route.

Is this not directly comparable to the best european race speeds? this is not a Kermeese, Pendle is a great big hill.

Everyone thinks European Cycling has a drugs problem, but maybe we need to re consider our thoughts, afterall these guys are doing this clean!

have you done any? Infact do you care? I have...and they were really hard cause the guys in the race were also really good at cycling.

Whats your point?

that some people are faster at cycling bicyles than others. Some peope are really good at what they do, no?

Yes

Monty Dog

I'm with Dave on this - the accusation that PED abuse is prevalent in Elite level racing in the UK is laughingly ridiculous - the prize money barely covers your expenses, so to contemplate spending a few grand on 'gear' for a race that carries no UCI points shows a startling lack of understanding - probably from someone whose indoctrinated in the 'win at all costs' mentality when for the vast majority of riders in the Tour of Pendle, there was slim chance of winning, but were just out for the enjoyment of a darned-hard race!

Jeff Jones

markwalker wrote:

So the tour of Pendle was won yesterday at an average speed of over 28.2 miles per hour over a hilly 94 mile route.

Where did you get 94 miles from?

British Cycling has it as 140km / 87 miles:
http://new.britishcycling.org.uk/road/a ... f-Pendle-0

And our own report said 3 x 44 km laps = 132km / 82 miles (there was some additional mileage to get to the circuit)
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/u ... hire-22733

Neither of these look to be particularly quick.

Edit: I see the official site (http://www.cdnw.org/Pendle/TOP.htm) has it as 94 miles. I'd still trust the BC distance.

afx237vi

Monty Dog wrote:

I'm with Dave on this - the accusation that PED abuse is prevalent in Elite level racing in the UK is laughingly ridiculous - the prize money barely covers your expenses, so to contemplate spending a few grand on 'gear' for a race that carries no UCI points shows a startling lack of understanding - probably from someone whose indoctrinated in the 'win at all costs' mentality when for the vast majority of riders in the Tour of Pendle, there was slim chance of winning, but were just out for the enjoyment of a darned-hard race!

People already spend thousands on bikes and equipment, even if it just for the enjoyment of the sport - so why is it so hard to believe the more ambitious domestic riders aren't going to spend a few hundred quid extra on a course of EPO?

As others have said, doping occurs in amateur and junior racing in other countries. There are people doping in granfondos. The infamous Cutting Edge Muscle forum was full of American weekend warriors looking for advice on doping.

moray_gub

Dave_1 wrote:

that some people are faster at cycling bicyles than others. Some peope are really good at what they do, no?

+1 like all sports some particpants are better than others.

dennisn

afx237vi wrote:

Monty Dog wrote:

I'm with Dave on this - the accusation that PED abuse is prevalent in Elite level racing in the UK is laughingly ridiculous - the prize money barely covers your expenses, so to contemplate spending a few grand on 'gear' for a race that carries no UCI points shows a startling lack of understanding - probably from someone whose indoctrinated in the 'win at all costs' mentality when for the vast majority of riders in the Tour of Pendle, there was slim chance of winning, but were just out for the enjoyment of a darned-hard race!

People already spend thousands on bikes and equipment, even if it just for the enjoyment of the sport - so why is it so hard to believe the more ambitious domestic riders aren't going to spend a few hundred quid extra on a course of EPO?

As others have said, doping occurs in amateur and junior racing in other countries. There are people doping in granfondos. The infamous Cutting Edge Muscle forum was full of American weekend warriors looking for advice on doping.

+1 Believing that there are drugs in many sports and on more than a few levels of those sports is easy. Back in the seventies I was doing some weight training at one of the local bodybuilders gym. Basically full of guys trying to get big or bigger(no aerobics).
Anyway, more than a few guys were not at all shy about their steroid use and could often be seen sticking a needle in their butt. Stupid? Sure. Illegal? Pretty much(not as much then as now). Most of these guys were local or State level competitors. So drug use in other areas and sports wouldn't surprise me at all. Even at "lower" levels of competition.

frenchfighter

Bronzie wrote:

Not usually a subject we can smile about, but this story I overheard 2 old time racers talking about made me smile.................

One of them told the story of a friend of his who raced in France in the 60's at amateur level. This guy was in this big race, hanging in there as best he could with the bunch. As the race went on, he started reaching into his jersey pocket for his race snacks to keep him going, popping one in his mouth every few minutes.

After a while he suddenly realised that all the other riders were watching him like a hawk, and he was getting nearer the front of the bunch without really trying. Not being able to speak French, he wasn't sure what he'd done to arouse their attention. Finally it dawned on him...........................
!!
!!
!!
!!
!!
!!
!!
!!
!!
!!
...............they didn't have Smarties in France and the other riders thought he was popping so many amps that he was liable to explode at any second. :shock:


Apologies if that is your story to whoever I overheard tell it, but it's too good to not share.

16simon

eh wrote:

However, for the OP to use the original example as evidence of the ProTour being clean is bizarre. I managed an 82 mile road race at an average of 27mph as a 4th Cat?!!!!

What race can 4th cats do that's 82 miles long? Most races at this distance are National Bs, which 4ths can't ride.

deejay

afx237vi wrote:

As others have said, doping occurs in amateur and junior racing in other countries. There are people doping in granfondos. The infamous Cutting Edge Muscle forum was full of American weekend warriors looking for advice on doping.

And they all rode their bicycles at the weekend in the States.

Dave_1 wrote:

that some people are faster at cycling bicyles than others. Some people are really good at what they do, no?

Interesting sentence, that one. (and yes they are)

Actually some people are better at many other things in life and they opt for whatever is their choice and probably because the are good at it.
Therefore they gain much more satisfaction and pleasure at what they are good at. ?
I personally wouldn't get much satisfaction of winning if I needed drugs to do so. (although I've had "Painkillers" when I shouldn't have ridden but did so because of the Team)
I could win the occasional 2nd Cat or a middle markers TT but nothing special and just enough to keep me motivated a long time ago.

afx237vi

deejay wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

As others have said, doping occurs in amateur and junior racing in other countries. There are people doping in granfondos. The infamous Cutting Edge Muscle forum was full of American weekend warriors looking for advice on doping.

And they all rode their bicycles at the weekend in the States.

Er... yes, and?

If there are internet forums full of people asking how to use EPO in order to beat their club-mates at the weekend, the argument about cost/benefit doesn't really work. Some people like to win, whatever the reward is.

dave_1

Moray Gub wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

that some people are faster at cycling bicyles than others. Some peope are really good at what they do, no?

+1 like all sports some particpants are better than others.

Exactly, that's life...it's a tough lesson for some though

eh

eh wrote:

However, for the OP to use the original example as evidence of the ProTour being clean is bizarre. I managed an 82 mile road race at an average of 27mph as a 4th Cat?!!!!



What race can 4th cats do that's 82 miles long? Most races at this distance are National Bs, which 4ths can't ride.

Dunno if its changed but I rode about 5 races in the mid 2000's that were E/1/2/3/4 races.

But that wasn't my point, the point is that average speed is a rubbish indicator of true performance because courses are different, even the same race has course changes between years, weather conditions change, competitors change, team organisations change, etc.

Monty Dog

If spending a few grand on kit every year is a sign or an inclination to use PEDs, then I'm as guilty as the next man, but perhaps is more symptomatic of the cynicism and the jealousy of others..