Why are the ASO so anti Vino

flattythehurdler

in particular. He hasn't done anything that lots of other cyclists haven't, so why pick on him in particular? Is there something else going on?

andyp

I don't think they are picking on him. They didn't want Basso at the race this season, and I doubt the likes of Ricco, Schumacher or Kohl will be particularly welcome in the future either.

The Tour is their race, they are free to invite whomever they choose to compete in it.

stagehopper

flattythehurdler wrote:

in particular. He hasn't done anything that lots of other cyclists haven't, so why pick on him in particular? Is there something else going on?

He shows no contrition, still denies it, sneers in the face of the drug testing protocols and is playing on his notoriety.

Would you want him in a sporting event you were organising?

symo

Is it because he does performance enhancign drugs?

bikerZA

symo wrote:

Is it because he does performance enhancign drugs?

And more importantly, has shown absolutely no remorse, and expects it to be his god given right to immediately step back into a ProTour team.

Kléber

Imagine if you were hosting a summer BBQ and a guest picks a fight and trashes your garden. When you confront them, they have the nerve to deny it and in fact joke about it and even after two years have passed, they have yet to apologise. Would you invite them back?

markwalker

Kléber wrote:

Imagine if you were hosting a summer BBQ and a guest picks a fight and trashes your garden. When you confront them, they have the nerve to deny it and in fact joke about it and even after two years have passed, they have yet to apologise. Would you invite them back?

yes, every bbq needs livening up and its the same with the tour.

I watched a superb dvd of the tour last night, Armstrong, Ullrich Heras Zubeldia hamilton and the Kazak monster. That particular stage (I think it might have been 13) was won by a very young looking Sastre.

Great stuff

avoidingmyphd

bikerZA wrote:

Is it because he ... expects it to be his god given right to immediately step back into a ProTour team.

To be fair to him (the other reasons on this thread are spot on!), he doesn't think god gave him the right to join Astana. He thinks he gave it to himself by helping to set up the team. And he has a point, really. Totalitarian propaganda is not my idea of welcome cycling sponsorship, but they wouldn't be in the sport without him.
(just about to press submit and I realise that if he thinks he's God, then I am wrong).

Dgh

ASO have the biggest bike race around, the one non-cycling fans have heard of. Reasonable to want to keep unrepentent cheats out of their race.

markwalker

Dgh wrote:

ASO have the biggest bike race around, the one non-cycling fans have heard of. Reasonable to want to keep unrepentent cheats out of their race.

perhaps that should be the wrong unrepentant cheats?

flattythehurdler

Whilst I agree with all of the above, they seem to have a particular cob on for vino, I just wondered was there any other reason.

Kléber

What have they said about Vino that they haven't said about others?

knedlicky

Sorry, but I disagree with much of what’s said here.

I don’t think remorse or contrition or repentance should ever be a condition for re-entry into one’s former life, if one’s found guilty of an offence, given a sentence, and serves that full sentence. Whether the sentence is x years in clink or x years competition ban, or whatever, it’s never x years plus “And Thou shalt show thy remorse”.

And, unlike the guy who trashes your garden at a BBQ, where everybody sees it, nearly all doping offences are based on circumstantial evidence, so as far as I’m concerned those found guilty have the right to say they didn’t as many times as they like.

That doesn’t mean I believe Vino, but I welcome him back, and wish the organisers would too; he’s more likely to liven and colour things up than many others.

In Vino Veritas!

deal

markwalker wrote:

Dgh wrote:

ASO have the biggest bike race around, the one non-cycling fans have heard of. Reasonable to want to keep unrepentent cheats out of their race.

perhaps that should be the wrong unrepentant cheats?

the ones stupid enough to get caught ?

nick hanson

Isn't it something to do with the fact that as soon as he was caught,he stated he was retiring,with immediate effect.
It was a while ago,but I seem to remember at the time,It was suggested by people far more knowledgable than me,that by doing this he was ducking out (or trying to) of being given a ban etc,then he WOULD return later.
Something like he has done (returned,after saying he was retiring.....)

Yorkman

The stance taken against him is no different to what would hapen if Ulrich decided he was going to race again.

They were team mates on one of the most prolific doping teams in recent memory, they deserve all they get.

donrhummy

andyp wrote:

I don't think they are picking on him. They didn't want Basso at the race this season, and I doubt the likes of Ricco, Schumacher or Kohl will be particularly welcome in the future either.

The Tour is their race, they are free to invite whomever they choose to compete in it.

Only until 2010. After that, they have to let all ProTour teams (at least 18 of them) ride in the TDF.

donrhummy

avoidingmyphd wrote:

bikerZA wrote:

Is it because he ... expects it to be his god given right to immediately step back into a ProTour team.

To be fair to him (the other reasons on this thread are spot on!), he doesn't think god gave him the right to join Astana. He thinks he gave it to himself by helping to set up the team. And he has a point, really. Totalitarian propaganda is not my idea of welcome cycling sponsorship, but they wouldn't be in the sport without him.
(just about to press submit and I realise that if he thinks he's God, then I am wrong).

As much as I'm not a fan of him, Vino believes he can ride again for one BIG reason: it's the rules! I don't know why everyone keeps ignoring this. The RULES state that he was suspended for two years and then eligible to ride again. If you don't like it, don't criticize Vino, lobby the UCI to change the rules!

avoidingmyphd

I'm not sure why you quoted me there don! The rules don't entitle him to a protour team ride. They just make him eligible for one should a pro tour team want to employ him.

I think bikerZA was alluding to the fact that none seem to want to, except possibly Astana, and he muscled in there in quite obvious fashion!

stagehopper

knedlicky wrote:

Sorry, but I disagree with much of what’s said here.

I don’t think remorse or contrition or repentance should ever be a condition for re-entry into one’s former life, if one’s found guilty of an offence, given a sentence, and serves that full sentence. Whether the sentence is x years in clink or x years competition ban, or whatever, it’s never x years plus “And Thou shalt show thy remorse”.

And, unlike the guy who trashes your garden at a BBQ, where everybody sees it, nearly all doping offences are based on circumstantial evidence, so as far as I’m concerned those found guilty have the right to say they didn’t as many times as they like.

That doesn’t mean I believe Vino, but I welcome him back, and wish the organisers would too; he’s more likely to liven and colour things up than many others.

In Vino Veritas!

Finding someone else's blood in a riders blood sample is as "circumstantial" as seeing someone trash your garden.

moray_gub

andyp wrote:

I don't think they are picking on him. They didn't want Basso at the race this season, and I doubt the likes of Ricco, Schumacher or Kohl will be particularly welcome in the future either.

The Tour is their race, they are free to invite whomever they choose to compete in it.

Tom Boonen ?

afx237vi

Moray Gub wrote:

andyp wrote:

I don't think they are picking on him. They didn't want Basso at the race this season, and I doubt the likes of Ricco, Schumacher or Kohl will be particularly welcome in the future either.

The Tour is their race, they are free to invite whomever they choose to compete in it.

Tom Boonen ?

They didn't want him, either. He only got in after a judgement from CAS.

It's a little different, though, because they had invited Quick Step and wanted to exclude one particular rider, which they can't do. It's much easier to just not invite the whole team, a la Astana in 2008.

avoidingmyphd

ATM - strictly speaking they invite teams who are then at liberty to include whichever riders they like.

So ASO have two ways to exclude a rider: either to not invite their team (like Astana 2008) or come to some friendly agreement with an invited team about who will ride (Basso 2009). The third option, of trying to dictate who invited teams bring is not available to them. The courts say so (Boonen 2009) (although I guess they could change the rules...)

This is going to change though because after 2010 ASO will be losing some of their independence again, and will have to invite all pro tour teams. So the "don't invite the team" option will disappear as regards unwelcome riders on a pro tour roster. This does not rule out "friendly" agreements with teams about who is not welcome, and I anticipate that there will be many.

andyp

Moray Gub wrote:

andyp wrote:

I don't think they are picking on him. They didn't want Basso at the race this season, and I doubt the likes of Ricco, Schumacher or Kohl will be particularly welcome in the future either.

The Tour is their race, they are free to invite whomever they choose to compete in it.

Tom Boonen ?

Good point. I assume it's because he failed an out of competition drug test, so there is a difference, albeit subtle, compared to the likes of Vino and Basso. It'd be interesting to examine the jurisdiction CAS has over ASO.

Anyway, Boonen rides for Quick Step and if you take any action or make any comment about them then that next phone call is from Patrick Leferve's lawyers.

timoid.

donrhummy wrote:

avoidingmyphd wrote:

bikerZA wrote:

Is it because he ... expects it to be his god given right to immediately step back into a ProTour team.

To be fair to him (the other reasons on this thread are spot on!), he doesn't think god gave him the right to join Astana. He thinks he gave it to himself by helping to set up the team. And he has a point, really. Totalitarian propaganda is not my idea of welcome cycling sponsorship, but they wouldn't be in the sport without him.
(just about to press submit and I realise that if he thinks he's God, then I am wrong).

As much as I'm not a fan of him, Vino believes he can ride again for one BIG reason: it's the rules! I don't know why everyone keeps ignoring this. The RULES state that he was suspended for two years and then eligible to ride again. If you don't like it, don't criticize Vino, lobby the UCI to change the rules!

Don't the rules also state that he needs to pony up a years worth of salary?

donrhummy

Timoid. wrote:

donrhummy wrote:

avoidingmyphd wrote:

bikerZA wrote:

Is it because he ... expects it to be his god given right to immediately step back into a ProTour team.

To be fair to him (the other reasons on this thread are spot on!), he doesn't think god gave him the right to join Astana. He thinks he gave it to himself by helping to set up the team. And he has a point, really. Totalitarian propaganda is not my idea of welcome cycling sponsorship, but they wouldn't be in the sport without him.
(just about to press submit and I realise that if he thinks he's God, then I am wrong).

As much as I'm not a fan of him, Vino believes he can ride again for one BIG reason: it's the rules! I don't know why everyone keeps ignoring this. The RULES state that he was suspended for two years and then eligible to ride again. If you don't like it, don't criticize Vino, lobby the UCI to change the rules!

Don't the rules also state that he needs to pony up a years worth of salary?

No, not every rider signed that agreement. It's only for the ones that signed it. They didn't make it an actual rule.

RichN95.

Surely the difference between Basso and Boonen is that Quick Step had already been invited when Boonen had his latest coke incident, so there was no chance for ASO to make a 'No Boonen' provision to the invitation as they seem to have done with Liquigas.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

Surely the difference between Basso and Boonen is that Quick Step had already been invited when Boonen had his latest coke incident, so there was no chance for ASO to make a 'No Boonen' provision to the invitation as they seem to have done with Liquigas.

I'm not clear ASO did make a "no Basso" provision. Did they?

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Surely the difference between Basso and Boonen is that Quick Step had already been invited when Boonen had his latest coke incident, so there was no chance for ASO to make a 'No Boonen' provision to the invitation as they seem to have done with Liquigas.

I'm not clear ASO did make a "no Basso" provision. Did they?

No idea. But it doesn't seem like Basso to willingly miss the Tour.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

No idea. But it doesn't seem like Basso to willingly miss the Tour.

I dunno. He wants to show them he can play nice, so doing the right things in Italy (where he doesnt' suffer those problems) is a good way to go about it. He's done LBL which is an ASO race.

deejay

iainf72 wrote:

I'm not clear ASO did make a "no Basso" provision. Did they?

I don't think that Liquigas would want to take that chance.
They had enough disgust from other teams when they signed him, didn't they, ? and overcome that by saying he was for the Giro only.

Vinokourov has a team (and is the Team Captain again) that was built for him originally, but while he was away Bruyneel got involved by saying he would change things around and clean up the image.
This he did by bringing all his old staff and riders from the former Discovery/Postal set up.
Vinokourov comes back into "his team" that is paid for by the Kazakhstan Government and he wants it changed from a USA team to one that promotes his country.
He has said that the old fella who is not a team member can pack his livestrong bags and clear off.

We will now have the disgraced captain leading his team again and the ASO will then apply their rule that they did with Bruyneel, ie if you are good boys then we might invite you in 2011.
The ASO have their sponsors to think about (and apply their wishes) and they only run these events to make a profit and that means keeping the sponsors happy.

Vinokourov was a long time member of that Telekom/T Mobile outfit which has passed into history with a huge list of Allegations against it.

IMO, he should have had a 10 year ban. !

I don't recall seeing an agreement between the ASO and the UCI, so enlighten me please. ??