Post-incident analysis: what happened on the way home

tjwood

I had a minor collision on the way home today (minor in the sense that no harm was done to anyone or any property). But I'm trying to work out what happened and how I can avoid it in future (I guess if the timing had been slightly different it could have been much worse...)

Here's the setup:



The car is waiting to enter the roundabout. I am approaching from the north in the left hand lane - I want to take the exit to the south.

At time 1 I give an arm signal (albeit fairly short) that I am taking the next exit. At this time I eyeball the driver who is looking my way, so I think he's seen me.
Shortly afterwards the driver pulls forward. We both brake more or less immediately and we meet at 2 (as it happens my front wheel hits the side of his, which has just come to a stop at this point, and I was going pretty slowly at the point of contact). I land on my feet straddling the bike, give a raised-hand wave to indicate that I'm OK, realise that my chain has fallen off and move to the side to put it back on. The driver disappears off wherever. As my knobbly MTB tyre hit his alloy wheel more or less head on there is no damage to my bike or his car.

As I said I'm trying to work out what happened and how I can avoid it again. There are a couple of possibilities I can think of:

- the driver looked in my direction while I was at 1, but didn't *see* me. He pulled forward, then saw me and stopped.
- the driver saw me but also saw my signal and misinterpreted it - either he thought I was taking the exit before him (although I'd passed that by the point I gave the signal), or he misinterpreted my raised arm as an indication I was letting him go. He pulled forward, then stopped when he realised I was carring on.

The first possiblility I don't suppose I can do much about (I was wearing hivis, and had my lights on, as it was overcast and a bit rainy, though at 7pm not actually dark). The second got me wondering - is the signal at 1 (which is exactly what the highway code says you should do) really necessary? Does it actually help anyone or is it actually doing more harm than good as it can be misinterpreted? (I said I gave a fairly brief signal - this was so I could put my hand back on the bars and had more control of my steering as I was negotiating the roundabout. If I'd gave a longer signal it might have been less likely to be misinterpreted - but then I wouldn't have been able to control the emergency stop as well as I did). Are arm signals on roundabouts a good idea or is it best to signal purely by your position in the road?

Any thoughts?

biondino

Making your presence, and your intentions, absolutely clear on a roundabout is paramount, so use arm signals as obviously as you can.

This guy, I think, either didn't see you or wasn't aware how far away you were. It looks from your diagram that regardless of your indicating, he should have been waiting for you. The only alternative is, as you say, that he thought you were taking the previous turning - maybe there's a trick of perspective that made it look like you were pointing that way, or that you hadn't already passed it by the time you indicated.

Eau Rouge

When I drive I'm a BMW driver, so naturally I don't think people should be indicating at all on roundabouts, it just causes confusion.

I don't think he actually saw you, or at least, didn't register you as "something not to drive out in front of", i.e traffic. I don't know how accurate your drawing is, but I would say you were too much to the left of your lane, I'd give consideration to being a lot closer to the middle of that lane if you don't have the 'protection' of cars around you to stop people pulling out in front of you. People are used to looking for traffic in the middle of the lane, thats where there brains are focused on. You, on the inside edge, barely register at all. You do register, but, as you saw, often later, after the car will have started moving into the "empty" roundabout.

doog442

biondino wrote:

Making your presence, and your intentions, absolutely clear on a roundabout is paramount, so use arm signals as obviously as you can.

.

thats easier said than done, try going clockwise (as required ) at speed around a roundabout with the bike leaning right and then having to stick a left arm out as you battle centrefugal force and commence a manouvre through the centre of gravity into a left hand lane whilst riding one handed

it aint easy :shock:

AndyManc

Entirely his fault , personally I wouldn't have indicated to exit the roundabout where you did but it's not a fault on your part.

You were on the left hand side so clearly your intentions were to continue ahead, I would have waited till I past the emerging vehicle before I indicated.

All you can do is make yourself more obvious, maybe more central in the left hand lane, still, something similar happens to me on most days .... it's another case of motorists not looking properly.


.

tjwood

Mmm yeah I'm not sure if my position on the road was exactly as shown on the diagram. I guess it's a balance between being far enough over to be visible and not so far as to risk interfering with the other lane of traffic to my right (at least I can see what's in my lane, I can't see whoever is coming up in the lane behind me and how close they might be).

I agree with doog, signalling on roundabouts isn't easy, on smaller roundabouts than this I don't signal on the roundabout itself because I'd rather be in complete control of the bike when negotiating a tight roundabout. I guess on massive roundabouts it's easier but then they probably present even more hazards for you to worry about.

Thanks for your reassuring comments, I'm sure this won't be the last time something like this happens, but would like to avoid it if possible. Good job I was alert enough to stop where I did really.

always_tyred

My guess also is that you were not registered as traffic.

However, at all roundabouts, assume people have NOT seen you. Most drivers don't know how they are supposed to tackle them either, so paranoia is good.

You did do the right thing by indicating.

Arguably, you might be able to take the primary in that lane and it might give you a bit more time to avoid people encroaching into the roundabout. This might not be the best thing to do if its a bit of a racetrack.

Basically, I can't really see how you did anything wrong - there but for the grace of, and all that.

White Line

Roundabouts can be pretty dangerous if other drivers don't know what you intend on doing, and if you don't stand your ground, as it were.

I find that being able to ride around corners fast with one hand is a skill that gets used quite a lot. Take primary before the roundabout, and maintain it until you are safely off it.

I reckon the driver either just thought you were taking the first exit - not expecting a cyclist to indicate :roll:; or didn't see you. I doubt it was a case of "cyclists stop for me". Or, I hope so anyway.

Glad you're okay.

chuckcork

Playing devils advocate, the picture shows in the wedge of traffic island between the 2 "1's" a shadow which looks like it would be signage?

If your diagram is accurate it is quite possible this sign obscured the drivers vision of you and vice versa, approaching at a car speed he simply might not with the visual clutter have seen you well enough.

Otherwise you did well to stop and did everthing right. Next time though get a road bike and blast through, you'll be in and out of there quicker :twisted:

fnegroni

First of all, I would like to point out it was most likely the driver's fault 100%. Signage, as pointed out by chuckcork, might have hindered the driver's vision/
But, I wonder if this happened when the sun was low and glare was obscuring you making you invisible to him. Did you have your front lights on? Reflective gear?
As for positioning, I think it would help to take a more primary or even slightly to the right position in your lane, especially roundabouts.
This notwithstanding the fact that it wasn't your fault and therefore any of the above suggestions are just optional.

jedster

Just a couple of comments

1. on a two lane roundabout, when going straight on/second exit I would tend to be in primary in the outer lane (one you were in) or even slightly further towards the inner lane. I am trying to signal through road position that I am definitely NOT going to take the first exit (to avoid either a pullout or a driver in the inner lane gunning it across my bows to exit the roundabout)

2. Like you I tend to signal on large roundabouts IF I think it is safe to do so. I don't think I would have signalled when you did just becasue I would have wanted two hands on the bars in case th driver pulled out forcing me to brake.

But these are only very subtle differences from your approach. I think the driver didn't look carefully enough

tjwood

Thanks for your comments. It's led me to do a fair bit of thinking which I'm sure can only make me safer in future.

To clarify a few points, not that it really matters but:
- I had a look on the way home today, you are right there is a sign however it's raised 6-8' off the ground so it wouldn't obstruct the view of a car driver. It was also set back from where his front window would have been anyway.
- The driver wasn't approaching at speed. He had stopped and given way to at least the car in front of me. So I guess he was looking for a gap, thought that the absence of something as big as a car was a gap, and started to pull forward - before he properly processed what he'd saw and noticed me.
- There was no sun. It was very overcast, but not dark, and yes I had front lights on and was wearing a hi-vis tabard. (Even if there had been sun, I was approaching from the north...).


I had a think about positioning and perhaps it would have been better for me to be a foot or so further to the right than I was (the diagram isn't that accurate though). Incidentally I don't really like the term "primary" position since that suggests there is some kind of default position for you to be in - I'd like to think you should always take the most appropriate position for the hazard you are negotiating without having any lazy "default" setting ;-) Though I will pay more attention to my positioning in future and particularly on roundabouts consider what difference it makes to my visibility.

Thinking about signalling, I think again this is something that will depend on the hazard you are negotiating. In advanced driving you are taught always to have both hands on the wheel when cornering otherwise you are not in full control of the vehicle - and I'm sure the same is true on a bike, no matter how well practiced you are you can't take one hand off the bars without giving up a bit of steering control (and as Jedster pointed out if your arm is in the air you're not going to be able to brake as quickly if necessary). So there is a trade-off to be aware of. Another thing you are taught in advanced driving is only to give a signal where it will benefit other road users - in the case of a cyclist moving from the left-most lane of a roundabout to exit the roundabout it is probably unlikely anyone will actually benefit from the signal so perhaps best avoided in this case, given the possibility for it to be misinterpreted and the fact that you can't do it without losing some control of the bike.

Anyway this has been good food for thought for me, so thanks.

biondino

Ultimately, in this situation, the cyclist has to be ready for exactly what the driver did. It's not fair, but it's realistic. The driver was hardly being reckless, he just didn't see you for whatever reason - it could have been as simple as camouflage, despite your apparent brightness. So just hang back, keep an eye on him and be ready to stop if necessary - i.e. basically what you did, but a yard or so quicker

ellieb

In the dim & distant past when I was a motorcycle courier, I had a similar sort of incident. Night time, me on a large motorbike with headlight on, on a roundabout correctly positioned, indicating. Pretty much like the OP's situation. Car arriving at the junction before the one I was due to exit, at some speed. He looks straight at my headlight, brakes sharply slowing to a near stop. When I can't avoid him, he pulled out.

Once I had picked myself up, sprinted up the road and waited until he felt it was safe to unlock his car door :
I said. " Did you see me?"
"Yes"
"So why did you pull out?"
" I don't know" :shock:

Once in a while sh*t happens. Sometimes you are lucky, sometimes you aren't. Sadly, sometimes there is nothing you can do about the situation.

fossyant

Happens mate..did to me last December..... although I was hit by a car doing 30...... two lanes coming onto RB, me on it, one driver stops, one is not looking...bang.....

Mike Healey

Since he clearly didn't see you, whether or not you signalled is irrelevant. In any case, if you were gong straight ahead on a roundabout, i.e. north to south, there's no requirement to signal.

Assuming that your description is correct, a classic smidsy.

Agree that taking the lane is often necessary on a roundabout.