Green: What is it for?

BdeB

This is not a Thor v Cav thing. Thor won the green jersey and that is that. However i was interested in a comment by Chris Boardman who suggested the green and KOM jerseys should be weigthed more to stage wins. Which begs the question what is the green jersy for? It has been traditionally thought of as the sprinters jersey but is this right? Some say it is for the most consistant finisher for every stage.
If it is all about consistant finishing why do they have intermediate sprints and why do some finishes (mountain top) have less points than others surely if it is about consistant finishing then every stage should be equal. If it is about sprints then it seems a bit strange that someone with one stage win can beat someone with 6 stage wins. Again this is not against Thor he won it fair and square by the rules this year. But if it is the sprinter's jersey it is a bit strange that someone can win the jersey by effectively being a better climber than others so he can win the intermediate sprint points. So i wonder if there should be a revision with maybe a bigger points gap between 1st and 2nd. After all sprinting is about winning.
Interestingly Thor himself seems to think the green is about sprinting. When asked about winning the greenhe said cav is the fastest sprinter but the green shows he (Thor) is the best. (which begs the question of how you define a sprinter. The fastest surely?) Anyway it was something i was thinking about and thought i would leave it till now so it wasn't a Cav should have won post.
I for one would like it to be the 'Sprinters' jersy just as the polka dot is the 'climbers' jersey. What o others think?

Pokerface

It's about consistent RIDING - not finishing.


As Cav showed - you can sit in the bunch every day and sprint to victory at the line, but the points jersey is about the most consistent rider (on flat days) - who is willing to do the extra work and come to the front DURING stages. Not just at the end.

redddraggon

It's definitely a sprinters jersey, as a sprinter is likely to win it. Unlike the Giro where the points jersey the points aren't weighted towards flat stages like in the Tour, DDL won it this year (although he won't be holding onto it for much longer), because of his consistent finishing on all stages, hilly and flat.

BdeB

Pokerface that wasn't what happened this year it was the hilly stages that won it for Thor and if that is really the case why only 6 points at a intermediate and 35 for the finish. If it is about riding at the front all day why not 10 at each intermediate and 10 at the finish.

nick hanson

I think exactly the same as you.Thor would say whatever suits him,& with the rules as they are,he did win fair and square.
Unfortunately I'm old enough (just!) to remember when there was a combine jersey.
This was basically a mishmash of the points in all the competitions,which were combined to give an 'overal' winner.
Now it does seem as the green jersey somewhat covers this,because it is glaringly obvious that the best,& most consistant sprinter didn't win green this year.
Thor only beat Cav on the uphill finish into Barcellona,couldn't get near him any other time.
The best way to rectify this situation is to have the green jersey decided on final sprint points only,& intermediate points used as a referance if there is a tie on final sprints.

redddraggon

BdeB wrote:

But that wasn't what happened this year it was the hilly stages that won it for Thor.

Only intermediate sprints. Where was he at the top of Ventoux or Arcalis? Cav could have tried for the intermediate sprints too that day where Thor went to mock up a couple of points, but he didn't bother.

It was the DQ that cost Cav the green jersey. At the end of the Tour Thor had 280pts and Cav 270pts, if he hadn't been DQed he'd have won Green.

BdeB

Again this wasn't meant to be a Thor v Cav. Thor got more points and i was trying to be diplomatic and not mention the DQ it is just a reflection on the jersey competitions. Chris B suggested that if you weight both jersey competitions to the finishes then we would really have the best climber in spots and the best sprinter in green. That is if you want the green to be for the sprinters.

takethehighroad

They are weighted in favour of the stage finshes, in both competitions

In the polka dots, the last climb on every stage (so long as it's 2nd Cat or above) is worth double points. Hence Contador still finished in the top few becuae he got double points at Arcalis Verbier and the Colombiere.

With Green, Thor could get a maximum 12 points out on the road, but then at the finish there was 35 points available, nearly three times more. The green jersey is right the way it is, this was proved by Nicolas Roche's top ten finish in the competition. He wasn't necessarily going for stage wins, but by getting into breaks and finshing highly on most stages, he got enough points to finish in the Top 10.

Pokerface

Some stages have 3 intermediate sprints (are there any with 4!?).

Thor won the jersey because he made the extra effort on that 'hilly' day to go and get the points. But it was that ONE hilly day where he won it, not a series of hilly days.

Call it a Sprinter's jersey and give it to the guy who wins more often - or keep it as a POINTS jersey and give it to the guy who gets the most points. I don't see the problem here.

Or is it just because people assume the jersey goes to the best sprinter?

markwalker

If youd like to see Cav in green, the rules as they are are a benifit to him.

Its unlikely hell carry on with this advantage for years and as his body changes hell have the physical maturity to compete long after his pure sprint dominanace has waned.

BdeB

Of course this is subjective but i for one would like it to be the 'sprinters' jersey, just as the KOM is the climbers jersey.

redddraggon

BdeB wrote:

Of course this is subjective but i for one would like it to be the 'sprinters' jersey, just as the KOM is the climbers jersey.

Contador was the best climber in the race by far, and he never won the KOM jersey.........

Cumulonimbus

It does seem a bit silly that the sprinter who wins far more stages than anyone else doesnt win the green jersey but i like the way that the green jersey involves more tactical thinking than simply trying to win stages. Road cycling is about more than just cycling along a load of flat roads. I thought Cav's best win was on stage 19 where he had to get over the 2nd cat (long 4%) climb near the finish.

Also, to add to the above where people were saying where Hushovd got extra points on Cav, there was also the lumpy stage 13 where he came second in the bunch sprint on the stage where Haussler won

BdeB

which was the point Chris Boardman was making if it is really the Kingo f the mountains wouldn't it be nice if the best climber won it.

john-e-big-guns

There was[years back 80's??] a Red jersey for the best sprinters....along with the Combine Jersey for the rider with most points in all Cat's...both where dropped

Paulie W

I struggle to get excited about the Green or Polka Dot jersies. The woes of the KOM competition have been well documented - when was the last time the actual best climber won it? - but the Green jersey seems to have come in for less flak (until this year at least), probably necause the winners have been close to being the best sprinter, if not always the very best. But of course it is not strictly speaking the sprinters jersey although it favours such men. Someone said that it favours the most consistent rider not finisher but in fact it favours the guy who is willing to do the work to pick up the intermediate points - that's not really anything to do with consistency. Hushovd and in the past Zabel are/were great at this but even for someone who loves stage racing I'm a bit 'so what?!' - it's easy to understand why a more casual observer might find the green jersey competition a bit of a mystery.

afx237vi

BdeB wrote:

Of course this is subjective but i for one would like it to be the 'sprinters' jersey, just as the KOM is the climbers jersey.

Really? Pellizotti was the best climber in this year's race?

The green jersey favours the pure sprinters FAR more than the KOM jersey favours the climbers. These days the KOM jersey is nothing more than a glorified breakaway classification.

disquieting_museeuws

The old red jersey was for the intermediate sprints only I believe, not the finishing sprints.

The green jersey rewards consistent riding with a bias towards the sprinters - I think it's the best solution in an imperfect world, and stage winners get their own reward anyway. The jerseys (apart from yellow which purely rewards the person who rides round France in the shortest time) need an element of tactics and intrigue to keep them interesting. I do agree the KOM has lost some prestige, though Pellizotti was a worthy winner for his work in breakaways IMO.

donrhummy

I agree. I think when one guy wins 6 stages and the other 1 stage (and there were only 7 sprint stages), the six win guy should win the green jersey. They need to give a few more points for a sprint stage victory.

AO1504

Cav had the option of getting more involved in the intermediate sprints.

bikerZA

the winner of green is the most consistent sprinter, not necessarily the quickest.

JackCB

AO1504 wrote:

Cav had the option of getting more involved in the intermediate sprints.

That's the thing isn't it. It can be a sprinting competition if all the riders who are in the running for the jersey want to make it one.

The problem is that it's rare for all the contenders to be involved in the intermediate sprints, as we saw with Thor, and then the points are really 'breakaway points' rather than sprint points. It's a bit of a shame that Cav was disqualified and then seemingly gave up on the green. If things had gone differently I wonder whether he (+ teammates) would have attempted to follow Thor, then they could have contested the sprints. That's how the competition should work.

redddraggon

bikerZA wrote:

the winner of green is the most consistent sprinter, not necessarily the quickest.

6 out of 7 bunch sprints seems consistent to me...

iainf72

redddraggon wrote:

bikerZA wrote:

the winner of green is the most consistent sprinter, not necessarily the quickest.

6 out of 7 bunch sprints seems consistent to me...

So sprint = 35 for win, 30 for second

If you won 6 of 7 you'd get 210

If you got 2nd in 7 of 7 you'd get 210

redddraggon

iainf72 wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

bikerZA wrote:

the winner of green is the most consistent sprinter, not necessarily the quickest.

6 out of 7 bunch sprints seems consistent to me...

So sprint = 35 for win, 30 for second

If you won 6 of 7 you'd get 210

If you got 2nd in 7 of 7 you'd get 210

Thor wasn't that consistent though....

FullFrameRob

Lets take this hypothetical situation based on the TDF Green Jersey points system.

7 sprint stages

Riders A wins 6 stages & doesnt get any points in the 7th stage and collects a total of 210pts

Rider B wins 1 stage but comes 2nd in 5 stages & 3rd in another collecting 211pts

Rider B wins by 1 point but who is the better sprinter.

RichN95.

The problem with it for me is that there are too many points for the minor places, which means that if you miss out completely on a stage (easy to do - crash, puncture, DQ) then it puts you a long way out of the running.

At the moment two 8th places gets more points than a win and a nowhere, which doesn't seem quite right to me.