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Any Clean Tour winners in the last 20 years???? - except GL

LangmanLangman Posts: 178
edited August 2009 in Pro race
After watching The Tour this year, I was left with the usual feeling that the winner was not clean. It was all to easy. But it got me thinking - has there been a 'clean' winner in the last 20 years except Greg Lemond? I can't think of anyone?

Anybody care to put forward any candidates?
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  • TusherTusher Posts: 2,762
    Carlos Sastre seems geniune to me.

    Not just because his fellow Spaniards call him Don Limpe.....sorry,whatever the Spanish is for Mr Clean- but because of the effect the death of his brother-in-law had on him.

    (jose-Marie Jiminez)
  • gabriel959gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    Indurain was probably clean too - he was just superhuman. Oscar Pereiro probably was too.

    Not so sure about Armstrong or Contador though.
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  • aarwaarw Posts: 448
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Indurain was probably clean too - he was just superhuman. Oscar Pereiro probably was too.

    Not so sure about Armstrong or Contador though.

    Indurain? ignorance is bliss for me on that one for me. i grew up watching him.....but he wasn't clean.

    Pereiro? Like AC, he refused to give his DNA as proof against the Puerto case. Why?

    Armstrong? Just watched ESPn, he rode away from a handful of dirty riders and blew them away...1999. The year of the sample the french claimed to have found EPO in his blood after re-testing many years later.

    Maybe Landis was telling the truth? :roll: :lol:

    I reckon Sastre is probably your best bet, but i wouldn't put the house on it. GL could well have been the last clean winner. We may never know.
  • LangmanLangman Posts: 178
    I overlooked Sastre - I think he could be the best bet.

    I think Indurain was doped for sure.
  • RamanujanRamanujan Posts: 352
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Indurain was probably clean too - he was just superhuman. Oscar Pereiro probably was too.

    Not so sure about Armstrong or Contador though.

    talk about being naive
    :roll:
  • cswebbocswebbo Posts: 220
    Possibly Sastre? I would like to think he was not part of the CSC Puerto gang.
  • gabriel959gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    Ramanujan wrote:
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Indurain was probably clean too - he was just superhuman. Oscar Pereiro probably was too.

    Not so sure about Armstrong or Contador though.

    talk about being naive
    :roll:

    :?

    Why was GL clean and Indurain not? It is because GL can speak English and has repeated hundreds of times he didn't dope. Hey so has Indurain done in Spanish.

    Didn't know that about Pereiro, so that would put him in the list too. Pantani and Ullrich we all know what was going in there.

    Not sure about Armstrong and Contador but hey, you can't say the doped because they don't want to give the DNA!
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  • andypandyp Posts: 8,709
    Ex-Banesto rider Thomas Davy testified in court about the systematic doping regime he experienced when he was riding for Banesto in the early 1990s.

    I also think Indurain was coached by Michele Ferrari?

    Given that EPO usage was rampant from the early to mid 1990s then I think it's naive to think that Indurain was not using, regardless of whether he's a nice guy or not.

    His early Tour performances would suggest he wasn't a natural three week stage race rider in the way that Hinault, Fignon and Lemond were.
  • LangmanLangman Posts: 178
    Oh yeah Indurain was doped, recently Fignon has admitted to drug use and says it could have lead to the cancer he now has.
  • RoscobobRoscobob Posts: 344
    Pretty sad when sportsmen are considered guilty until proven innocent :(
  • disgruntledgoatdisgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Roscobob wrote:
    Pretty sad when sportsmen are considered guilty until proven innocent :(

    Whilst I agree with you, and believe the presumption of innocence is paramount in terms of sanctioning and catching cheats... In terms of how people percieve them, they probably should have thought of that before they took all those drugs.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,709
    Roscobob wrote:
    Pretty sad when sportsmen are considered guilty until proven innocent :(
    If you followed cycling in that period then I think you'll know that most of the big named riders and their domestiques were following team wide doping programs throughout the 1990s. The Festina affair demonstrated this and there is evidence from other teams and riders that this was common in most teams, i.e. Banesto, Once, Gewiss, Telekom, TVM etc.

    As there was no EPO test available until 2000 it's no surprise that teams did this, is it?
  • Sastre's TT perfromance the hang onto yellow on the penultimate day in 2008 was highly suspect IMHO.

    And he is ex Riis.
    \'You Come At the King,You Best Not Miss\'
  • gabriel959gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    andyp wrote:
    Ex-Banesto rider Thomas Davy testified in court about the systematic doping regime he experienced when he was riding for Banesto in the early 1990s.

    I also think Indurain was coached by Michele Ferrari?

    Given that EPO usage was rampant from the early to mid 1990s then I think it's naive to think that Indurain was not using, regardless of whether he's a nice guy or not.

    His early Tour performances would suggest he wasn't a natural three week stage race rider in the way that Hinault, Fignon and Lemond were.

    Are you referring to this? http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/banesto-named-in-drug-case-636949.html He was only there 1995 and 1996 though.

    His early Tour performances you say, he finished 10th the year before and had also finished 2nd in la Vuelta previously that year (and he also finished 7th in 1990). He had also won Volta a Cataluyna, Paris-Nice previously to that Tour win...

    Hey may be he doped, but you could say the same thing about probably every other cyclist that has ever won the Tour de France or a GT.
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  • FJSFJS Posts: 4,820
    There have been too many revelations to presume beyond any level of doubt that any pro rider has been riding completely 'clean', since about the mid-19th Century I'd say. And that includes Greg Lemond, however valuable his current anti-doping stance is.

    What, I think is more useful than looking at 'clean' Tour winners, is who has won without blood doping. Steven Rooks has recently admitted he used EPO, starting with it in 1989. This suggests he finished second in the 1988 TdF still without EPO. Fignon admitted to using EPO I think also in the 1990s, after his Tour wins. Did they use some stimulants? possibly, but that's a different thing.
  • LangmanLangman Posts: 178
    The 90's must have been a free for all, I am sure the 80's were the same.

    Its a shame that when ever you watch the tour you assume the winner must be on something - and almost certainly is. Hopefully with the likes of Wiggins putting forward blood results it will force the sport to clean up. It was always the case that clean riders where isolated and abused by the peloton - which is crazy.

    I where a clean rider that been beaten by what turned out to be dirty riders I would be very bitter indeed, only Lemond seems to be like this.
  • FJSFJS Posts: 4,820
    andyp wrote:
    Roscobob wrote:
    Pretty sad when sportsmen are considered guilty until proven innocent :(
    If you followed cycling in that period then I think you'll know that most of the big named riders and their domestiques were following team wide doping programs throughout the 1990s. The Festina affair demonstrated this and there is evidence from other teams and riders that this was common in most teams, i.e. Banesto, Once, Gewiss, Telekom, TVM etc.

    As there was no EPO test available until 2000 it's no surprise that teams did this, is it?

    Absolutely right.
    One thing though, it seems with hindsight that some teams were better at using it effectively earlier than others. Think for instance about the even at the time very suspicious 1-2-3 coupe of Gewiss-Ballan in the 1994 Fleche Wallonne. It is reasonable to assume most of the peloton was using EPO at that stage, but apparently Gewiss was more effective with it.
  • DghDgh Posts: 180
    It is sad when sportspeople are presumed guilty, but that's the state into which men's road racing has got itself. Look at what the Spanish media say abotu Valverde - they're indignant about points of law, rather than adressing whether he's guilty or not. We talking sporting justice here, not sending people to prison.

    Re Indurain, ok, he's a good guy, but he dominated in a time when doping was rife. Doesn't mean he doped, but it does mean there is a question-mark. He generally keeps quiet about this subject, but then he does about most subjects so maybe nothing in that.

    Re LA, his explanation for the difference in his pre and post-cancer riding is the same as Wiggins' for his transformation into a GC rider - lost weight and better prep. I doubt that Wiggins dopes. LA hasn't helped his image on this front by some of his stances, but that could be simply because he's a stubborn sort of guy.

    As for Fignon, in his book he doesn't admit to taking EPO, but talks about learning about it when he moved to Gatorade.


    G
  • DghDgh Posts: 180
    I'm happy to accept that GL was clean - he's never been one to gloss over the doping issue, and he seems quite bitter about it - a bit like Christine Arron in athletics.

    They guy who turns by stomach is Stephen Roche. When Kimmage wrote "A Rough Ride", Roche was up in arms, threatening to sue people as I recall, despite the fact that Kimmage thought the sun shone out of his censored . But Matt Randel's book on Pantani reports evidence found in Italian judicial enquiries that points towards Roche using EPO while at Carrera at the end of his career.

    Doesn't make Roche any worse than a lot of other riders around in the 90's, but makes his attitude towards Kimmage seem pretty shitty. But then he's not alone in that.
  • LangmanLangman Posts: 178
    I don't know if fignon used epo but I he used steroids he has recently admitted this.

    For me another rider that seems to have slipped pretty much under the rader is Stephen Roche - there is no question in my mind that this guy was a dirty rider, I know a judgement was made against him recently with regard to his final few years but I think this guy doped big time in his TDF, Giro, World Champ winning season. He was with Carrera and those guys had doping down to a T, they even doped amatuars that were going to be joining them to see how they reacted - read the death of Marco Pantani - pretty interesting if depressing.
  • LangmanLangman Posts: 178
    Dgh - you must have been writing your post when I was - I agree completely. The book you mention is a good eye opener.
  • PokerfacePokerface Posts: 7,960
    While I suspect that many riders are/were using something - I just am trying to imagine the logistics of this in the modern age. Especially during a 3-week tour.

    For instance - people are guessing that Contador/Armstrong were both using during this year's Tour. And possibly many other riders?

    Astana team bus searched for hours. Nothing found. So - how does all this doping actually work? Were are the products kept? How are they used. Who disposes of the evidence? (All in the context of a 3-week Tour).

    Just figure it would be hard to hide it all. And yet they do....
  • bikerZAbikerZA Posts: 314
    ummm, why not GL?
  • LangmanLangman Posts: 178
    For me there are a few reasons why not GL.

    The way he was unable to keep up the year after he won the tour - when epo took off.

    His reaction since has been one that I can identify with, he is bitter about doping as I would do if my career had been shortened due to cheats. And despite his reaction nobody has ever to my knowledge pointed an accusing finger at him.

    Also unlike some riders that won the tour Lemond was always a special cyclist and his potential was there for all to see unlike say pantani.
  • disgruntledgoatdisgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Langman wrote:
    For me there are a few reasons why not GL.

    The way he was unable to keep up the year after he won the tour - when epo took off.

    His reaction since has been one that I can identify with, he is bitter about doping as I would do if my career had been shortened due to cheats. And despite his reaction nobody has ever to my knowledge pointed an accusing finger at him.

    Also unlike some riders that won the tour Lemond was always a special cyclist and his potential was there for all to see unlike say pantani.

    Appreciate what you're saying but Pantani WAS always a special talent.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • LangmanLangman Posts: 178
    Not like Lemond.

    Pantani was unspectacular as an amatuar and without EPO he would probably not won a thing.
  • Pantani was unspectacular as an amatuar and without EPO he would probably not won a thing.
    complete twaddle.
  • disgruntledgoatdisgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Langman wrote:
    Not like Lemond.

    Pantani was unspectacular as an amatuar and without EPO he would probably not won a thing.

    Winning the baby giro is unspectacular?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • LangmanLangman Posts: 178
    He was doped as part of Carreras program for that win. Have you read Matt Rendells book? Great read - and really blows Pantani wide open.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,496
    Sastre's TT perfromance the hang onto yellow on the penultimate day in 2008 was highly suspect IMHO.

    And he is ex Riis.

    Nothing suspect at all about it to my mind. He's a better time triallist than people give him credit for.

    In the previous four years, his position in the final time trial was: 17th, 12th, 19th, 16th. So to be 12th again with the Yellow Jersey on the line is not too surprising.

    Plus Evans had a stinker.
    Twitter: @RichN95
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