Dr ferrari on the Tour pt 2

iainf72

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=105

BRADLEY WIGGINS was the surprise of this Tour: he was impressive in the 20' ascent to Verbier, while he still has to improve on longer climbs.
We've noticed the usual unjustified suspects on him too, but what probably struck more was the "license of virginity" he was promptly credited with by Pat McQuaid: I wouldn't want that this transformed into a "license of impunity"...

DaveyL

"ALBERTO CONTADOR dominated the TdF 2009, winning both on the climbs and in time trials, confirming his recent supremacy in stage races.

Antoine Vayer on Liberation and Greg Lemond on LeMonde proposed the usual rancid suspicions on his performances, quoting an average power output of 490w on the Verbier uphill finish: 8.5 km at 7.5% done in 20'55", at the average speed of 24.3 km/h.
An absolutely false valuation: a cyclist weighing 62 kg develops less than 420w at such speed on that gradient.
All it takes is to try and ride 5 minutes on a 7.5% climb at 24.3 km/h with a properly calibrated power-meter on the bike... but evidently the two "experts" did not have the time to do it.

LANCE ARMSTRONG had a good Tour, with excellent uphill performances in the last week, showing us that his outstanding recovery skills are still there."

He's good for a laugh is old Mickey. All it takes is a properly calibrated power meter? Indeed, shame Bertie wasn't using one - Astana could've put Antoine and Greg's gas at a peep right away. Maybe Lance was Hogging the SRM that day...

k-dog

DaveyL wrote:

"He's good for a laugh is old Mickey. All it takes is a properly calibrated power meter? Indeed, shame Bertie wasn't using one - Astana could've put Antoine and Greg's gas at a peep right away. Maybe Lance was Hogging the SRM that day...

Doesn't he mean that he could prove that they were wrong by checking it with a powermeter - not that he was riding with one.

Greg as usual was casting doubt on the performance but Ferrari was saying that he was wrong.

thamacdaddy

Yeah thats how I took at as him saying if you actually work the figures based on his weight the power output avg is actually lower than Greg's remarks and that he could have checked his figures doing a very simple lab test himself.

DaveyL

My point is that both Vayer/Lemond and Ferrari are guessing. If Bertie had been riding with a powermeter, we could have known for sure. Astana could have said "Here you go, this is the Wattage he was doing."

Other teams do it, so why not?

iainf72

I think the point is they're guessing it but they're guessing it way off the mark (apparantly) and then trying to make a case based on that.

Does Wiggins post his power output? Because according to Lemond's number's Wiggins ride on Verbiers would be unbelievable so I guess seeing Brad's numbers would give us an idea of what actually was being produced

frenchfighter

Contador rides by feel and talks of sensations like Sastre. He doesn't ride by numbers.

attica

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador rides by feel and talks of sensations like Sastre. He doesn't ride by numbers.

D'you know, sometimes I get the impression that you might be a bit of a fan of Mr Contador

frenchfighter

Attica wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador rides by feel and talks of sensations like Sastre. He doesn't ride by numbers.

D'you know, sometimes I get the impression that you might be a bit of a fan of Mr Contador

You may be right. He is my out and out favourite and has been all the time for a long time.

DaveyL

The power meter is a device for *measuring* the power the rider produces. It does not need to be used to dictate to the rider how to ride.

frenchfighter

DaveyL wrote:

The power meter is a device for *measuring* the power the rider produces. It does not need to be used to dictate to the rider how to ride.

I agree to some extent, yet it is well known that some riders will not push themselves harder when they reach certain numbers, power or heart rate. They are also used extensively in training.

redddraggon

frenchfighter wrote:

Attica wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador rides by feel and talks of sensations like Sastre. He doesn't ride by numbers.

D'you know, sometimes I get the impression that you might be a bit of a fan of Mr Contador

You may be right. He is my out and out favourite and has been all the time for a long time.

Since July 2007?

DaveyL

frenchfighter wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

The power meter is a device for *measuring* the power the rider produces. It does not need to be used to dictate to the rider how to ride.

I agree to some extent, yet it is well known that some riders will not push themselves harder when they reach certain numbers, power or heart rate. They are also used extensively in training.

It's well known, is it? In a race scenario? Go on.

Anyway this is not the point. In your eyes, Bertie may be an immortal, but he produces Watts when he turns the pedals, just like every other rider. And he or his team could easily, if they so desired, show what numbers he is producing and put this thing to bed. However they choose not to.

frenchfighter

Yes rd from 2007 - from the first time I saw him ride.

frenchfighter

Sure you are right DaveyL, and the same applies to every other rider.

However, the point remains: what will this serve? Ok so he put out 300 Watts - what will the journos say to that. Ok so he put out 500 - and to that? Does it matter much. Don't forget that on an example like Verbier, Lance could have put out more Watts than Contador:

He weighs 21% more than Contador (62 vs 75)
He climbed Verbier 8% slower than Contador (95 secs back on an ascension time of 20mins 55secs).

Now I don't use a power meter, don't interest myself in them, etc, but given these two figures, I would conclude that Lance's details are far more suspiscious?

camerone

frenchfighter wrote:

Attica wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador rides by feel and talks of sensations like Sastre. He doesn't ride by numbers.

D'you know, sometimes I get the impression that you might be a bit of a fan of Mr Contador

You may be right. He is my out and out favourite and has been all the time for a long time.

Out of interest, would you change your views if, heaven forbid, there was a ludicrous situation where he tested positive for a banned substance?

camerone

frenchfighter wrote:

Sure you are right DaveyL, and the same applies to every other rider.

However, the point remains: what will this serve? Ok so he put out 300 Watts - what will the journos say to that. Ok so he put out 500 - and to that? Does it matter much. Don't forget that on an example like Verbier, Lance could have put out more Watts than Contador:

He weighs 21% more than Contador (62 vs 75)
He climbed Verbier 8% slower than Contador (95 secs back on an ascension time of 20mins 55secs).

Now I don't use a power meter, don't interest myself in them, etc, but given these two figures, I would conclude that Lance's details are far more suspiscious?

it wasnt a time trial up the hill, they werent both necessarily climbing as fast as they could, if they were you have a point

frenchfighter

And would you kindly explain why Lance would let all these GC guys ride away from him? He couldn't even suck wheels, even Kloden's. I think he was climbing as fast as he could.

Gazzaputt

frenchfighter wrote:

I would conclude that Lance's details are far more suspicious?

C'mon please get in the real world. :roll:

This is all guess work and I wouldn't take anything from it.

Lance doping on his comeback? No way would he jeopardise his political future.

frenchfighter

camerone wrote:

Out of interest, would you change your views if, heaven forbid, there was a ludicrous situation where he tested positive for a banned substance?

Camerone, that is a tough question. You could say in the same way as anyone does when their hero tests positive. Maybe that is why so many on here don't have favourites, or at least don't make it known.

To be honest, I don't know and will cross that bridge if it ever occurs. For now I will watch and admire Contador's and my other favourite rider's performances without that doubt. I have said it before, but when I watch this sport, the issue of drugs doesn't concern me overly - I want to be entertained and when I hear of someone I liked being a doper than I am sad and take their performances with less admiration, but that is about it.

camerone

not necessarily for the whole climb. i repeat it wasnt a time trial therefore you cannot compare ascent times with any degree of precision.

camerone

frenchfighter wrote:

camerone wrote:

Out of interest, would you change your views if, heaven forbid, there was a ludicrous situation where he tested positive for a banned substance?

Camerone, that is a tough question. You could say in the same way as anyone does when their hero tests positive. Maybe that is why so many on here don't have favourites, or at least don't make it known.

To be honest, I don't know and will cross that bridge if it ever occurs. For now I will watch and admire Contador's and my other favourite rider's performances without that doubt. I have said it before, but when I watch this sport, the issue of drugs doesn't concern me overly - I want to be entertained and when I hear of someone I liked being a doper than I am sad and take their performances with less admiration, but that is about it.

an approach to watching I have to agree with. i hope he isnt doping, and whilst I dont particularly like him he is good to watch. i will be honest I find his TT performance in annecy too good to be true, beating cancellara in more unfavourable conditions just doesnt sit right with me.

frenchfighter

camerone wrote:

not necessarily for the whole climb. i repeat it wasnt a time trial therefore you cannot compare ascent times with any degree of precision.

I'm sorry but your point doesn't cut it with me...

In any case, as I've said I am not a numbers man so don't care what Lance put out, I was just pointing it out so poeple can look past the figures quoted for Contador.

frenchfighter

camerone wrote:

i will be honest I find his TT performance in annecy too good to be true, beating cancellara in more unfavourable conditions just doesnt sit right with me.

Contador is an amazing TT'er and always has been.

Now also consider that the course had a climb in it. No it wasn't long but I can tell you (I was on it and watched from several points) that it was very steep in parts. Contador is the best climber in the world and Cancellara is not noted his climbing (grupetto sometimes). I saw Cancellara come past 2m from me - he was grinding. Contador was flying. At the check point at the top of the climb, Cancellara wasn't doing top (not sure of his exact time); Wiggins beat Ignatiev's time by 5secs then Contador smashed that by 30 secs. So Contador had a large buffer on the descent and Cancellara descended much faster.

Given those details, it doesn't surprise me in the least.

Cancellara did get the biggest cheer of any rider though!

DaveyL

Given your "understanding" of power and exercise physiology, I'm not surprised it doesn't surprise you.

Keep cheering for the wee man.

frenchfighter

You who profess to know about these things, why don't you enlighten me.

Would Lance's power output be higher given the figures I mentionned?

Why given what I wrote about the course would you expect Cancellara to beat Contador? Or to put it another way, why shouldn't Contador have won by 3 secs?

Bronzie

iainf72 wrote:

I think the point is they're guessing it but they're guessing it way off the mark (apparantly) and then trying to make a case based on that.

From what I've read, VAM calculations are very dubious - you have to make a lot of assumptions and without accurate access to wind speed data on the climbs they can be meaningless. See this thread on the Wattage group for more info (you have to be a member to view):

Also discussed here:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07 ... climb.html

iainf72 wrote:

Does Wiggins post his power output? Because according to Lemond's number's Wiggins ride on Verbiers would be unbelievable so I guess seeing Brad's numbers would give us an idea of what actually was being produced

Latest download I can see is his opening TT file:
http://www.slipstreamsports.com/2009/07 ... e-1-monaco

DaveyL

frenchfighter wrote:

You who profess to know about these things, why don't you enlighten me.

Would Lance's power output be higher given the figures I mentionned?

Why given what I wrote about the course would you expect Cancellara to beat Contador? Or to put it another way, why shouldn't Contador have won by 3 secs?

If you are judging whether a ride is within the bounds of human performance, you want to be looking at power-to-weight ratio, not just absolute power.

On the first, flat, 18 km section of the Annecy TT, Contador was faster than Cancellara. he also beat Wiggins (often said to be the greatest pursuit rider of all time, at least until Taylor Phinney gets going) in a pan flat 9 km time trial in the Paris-Nice prologue.

Bronzie

frenchfighter wrote:

Would Lance's power output be higher given the figures I mentionned?

On a climb, a heavier rider must produce more power to climb at the same speed as a lighter one. Their watts per kg (power to weight ratio) will be similar. Figures around 6.2-6.4W/kg are generally quoted as being the maximum physiologically possible without PEDs.

Hence, on a flattish TT, you would expect a heavier more powerful rider (ie Cancellara) to be quicker than a lighter less powerful rider (ie Contador). But what you cannot take into account with this is the rider's frontal areas and drag coefficients which come into effect during a flat time-trial - this sort of information would only be available to the teams from wind tunnel testing and I'm guessing they won't make that sort data available in a hurry.

camerone

frenchfighter wrote:

camerone wrote:

i will be honest I find his TT performance in annecy too good to be true, beating cancellara in more unfavourable conditions just doesnt sit right with me.

Contador is an amazing TT'er and always has been.

Now also consider that the course had a climb in it. No it wasn't long but I can tell you (I was on it and watched from several points) that it was very steep in parts. Contador is the best climber in the world and Cancellara is not noted his climbing (grupetto sometimes). I saw Cancellara come past 2m from me - he was grinding. Contador was flying. At the check point at the top of the climb, Cancellara wasn't doing top (not sure of his exact time); Wiggins beat Ignatiev's time by 5secs then Contador smashed that by 30 secs. So Contador had a large buffer on the descent and Cancellara descended much faster.

Given those details, it doesn't surprise me in the least.

Cancellara did get the biggest cheer of any rider though!

i accept what you say about the course, i wasnt there so take on board the points on the climb etc. but contador was faster on the flat part than cancellara. i use cancellara as the benchmark as one of the undisputed flat TT'ers. I understand contador is not new to TT'ing very well, but surely on the flat he shouldnt be able to match Cnacellara?

stagehopper

camerone wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

camerone wrote:

i will be honest I find his TT performance in annecy too good to be true, beating cancellara in more unfavourable conditions just doesnt sit right with me.

Contador is an amazing TT'er and always has been.

Now also consider that the course had a climb in it. No it wasn't long but I can tell you (I was on it and watched from several points) that it was very steep in parts. Contador is the best climber in the world and Cancellara is not noted his climbing (grupetto sometimes). I saw Cancellara come past 2m from me - he was grinding. Contador was flying. At the check point at the top of the climb, Cancellara wasn't doing top (not sure of his exact time); Wiggins beat Ignatiev's time by 5secs then Contador smashed that by 30 secs. So Contador had a large buffer on the descent and Cancellara descended much faster.

Given those details, it doesn't surprise me in the least.

Cancellara did get the biggest cheer of any rider though!

i accept what you say about the course, i wasnt there so take on board the points on the climb etc. but contador was faster on the flat part than cancellara. i use cancellara as the benchmark as one of the undisputed flat TT'ers. I understand contador is not new to TT'ing very well, but surely on the flat he shouldnt be able to match Cnacellara?

Part of the problem with any assessment is the course was effectively oblong-shaped, and the wind not only was varying in speed but switched direction 180 degrees between Cancellara's ride and the GC leaders coming back. The GC leaders had a tailwind for some of that flat section which Cancellara didn't benefit from. They then suffered into the blockwind at the end whereas Cancellara flew with the wind behind him.