Aero Wheels

mrc1

I daren't post this on one of the road forums for fear of being overloaded with "data" about wattages and god knows what else.....

Basically I lap Richmond Park at around the 18-18.5 minute mark on Mavic Aksiums and wondered what sort of timing difference a pair of aero wheels would make (for example something with a 50ish mm profile eg Zipp 404)?

I'm not looking for specific numbers but just a rough estimate to help me work out whether they are worth the outlay - I have managed to get an elite entry in the London Duathlon and figure that if they save me 30 seconds over a lap it will be worth it but it wont be worth it if i save 5 seconds.......

jonginge

Want. Zipp. 404s...

I circle RP on rims with a similar aero profile (Aksiums on commuter, Ksyrums on others) and would be interested to know also. IP aka Jash has Fulcrum Racing zeros and Ffwd deep section carbon jobs. Wonder what the difference round RP is.

gabriel959

Are you aware that they cost a fortune? I suppose it doesnt matter much seeing as you adding a Ciocc to your fleet.

The thing is that Zipps are tubulars and unless you are going to race properly I don't think it is worth it to buy something like that.

mrc1

Yeah I REALLY want to be sure that they make an appreciable difference as aero wheels are stupidly expensive!!

I suspect they would be at their most useful on the run from Robin Hood to Roehampton Gates as that is just head down and flat out but I await Jash's comment, otherwise I will have to brave the the Road boards.......

il_principe

JonGinge wrote:

Want. Zipp. 404s...

I circle RP on rims with a similar aero profile (Aksiums on commuter, Ksyrums on others) and would be interested to know also. IP aka Jash has Fulcrum Racing zeros and Ffwd deep section carbon jobs. Wonder what the difference round RP is.

All I'm gonna say is that I've lapped RP in 17:01 (clockwise) with FFWD deep rims (Clincher) on. Never done that with the Zeros but that's hardly a scientific experiment and I don't use any tribars etc!

mrc1

Haha I was just using the Zipp's as an example as they are the first wheel that I could think of. I'm not asking for zipp specific advice - just whether aero wheels in general will make a big enough difference.

Re cost I am fully aware how much they are and would not be able to buy the zipps but I am starting to break into elite category tris and duathlons so if they make a big enough difference I would consider getting aero wheels.....

gtvlusso

Hmm - It is allot to spend whatever you decide.

I went with a disk rear and a 90 front - Zipp wheels for Triathlon/Ironman. I went with approx 5 mins off my total time (over 112 miles) depending on weather conditions (after searching web forums) - which, I personally find very hard to believe! I was too buggered after doing my bike ride on the triathlons, that I competed in, to "do the math" and work out my differential between event and training ride/mock race. My bike was a P3 Cervelo, so it would have looked a bit crap without the full on carbon wheels anyway!

My 10 mile time was down to the top end of 19 minutes with fantastic wheels - but I think it was becaue I slogged my guts out as opposed to aerodynamics.......won't get near those figures again in my mid 30's!

Ultimately, when you get to an event - adrenaline take over and pushes you harder anyway and nothing can beat simply getting fitter and working harder - cheaper than wheels too - so any maths you do to work out your efficiency are probably flawed by a percentage anyway. Think placebo effect - i.e. you go faster not because of the wheel efficiency, but you enjoy owning them and they look bitchin'.

Richmond Park is about 7 miles is it?! Wheels do make a big difference in terms of weight and efficiency, but don't go nuts (unless you are minted!) - a set of Mavic Cosmic Carbones would be good for RP - deep'ish rim, carbon, will not catch too much on a cross wind - could use them as a summer wheel most days.

I am, of course, coming from a point of view where I sold the lot to buy a new kitchen....so I may be jealous! :-)

gabriel959

mrcartledge wrote:

Haha I was just using the Zipp's as an example as they are the first wheel that I could think of. I'm not asking for zipp specific advice - just whether aero wheels in general will make a big enough difference.

Re cost I am fully aware how much they are and would not be able to buy the zipps but I am starting to break into elite category tris and duathlons so if they make a big enough difference I would consider getting aero wheels.....

I know this is going to sound silly but if you are prepared to spend that sort of money you should head to the roadie section as there are some people there that know what they are talking about!

mrc1

Thanks GTV some good advice.

The race is in a couple of months and I have a few races in the meantime and will hope to peg a lap time of around the 17-17.5 minute mark on the day as it is a drafting allowed race and I will also have the adrenaline you mentioned (this is by far the shortest cycle distance race I have entered so I am going to focus more on out and out speed over one lap as opposed to endurance over 4-5 laps which is where my current PB came from).

I suppose I am getting to that stage where having a set of wheels that will shave time off means I can hit the same time as using the aksiums but save energy in the process for the run.....

jonginge

gtvlusso wrote:

My 10 mile time was down to the top end of 19 minutes with fantastic wheels - but I think it was becaue I slogged my guts out as opposed to aerodynamics.......won't get near those figures again in my mid 30's!

Chapeau, sir. Great time.

Best (and last) 10 I did was a short 23. Was 17 at the time and on my (now) red and white hack bike, though. (That was more than half my life ago :shock: .) Beer and general lazyness at uni hampered my burgeoning TT career. I coulda been a contender, I tell ya*


* not really

gtvlusso

See what you can pick up on t'interweb cheap! See how you feel on them. Deep rims do get badly affected by crosswind - always fun on a downhill section! My road wheels have a 35mm deep V rim and my "current" race wheels are Cosmic Carbones, unused this year :-(

I think the PLanet X ones are a bit of a bargain as are the Pro Lite wheels - also depends on whether you are going clincher tyres or tubular (tubs) - tubs can be a frickin' nightmare to change if you are not used to it!!!

May need valve extensions too!

cjcp

mrcartledge wrote:

I daren't post this on one of the road forums for fear of being overloaded with "data" about wattages and god knows what else.....

Basically I lap Richmond Park at around the 18-18.5 minute mark on Mavic Aksiums and wondered what sort of timing difference a pair of aero wheels would make (for example something with a 50ish mm profile eg Zipp 404)?

I'm not looking for specific numbers but just a rough estimate to help me work out whether they are worth the outlay - I have managed to get an elite entry in the London Duathlon and figure that if they save me 30 seconds over a lap it will be worth it but it wont be worth it if i save 5 seconds.......

I think there are two points here:

1. whether they will help in RP; and
2. whether they will help in other elite events.

If you're Elite, do you set off early in the London Duathlon, because there seemed to be an awful lot of bike traffic when I spectated last year? It would be worth asking on the 3-Lap Challenge thread. I think Felgen has recently bought some aero wheels and attributed a faster time to them.

mrc1

Yeah I am going to have a scout around the web.

Thanks for the tip off re Planet X ones! I like the Mavic Cosmics - there are videos on youtube of people hitting them with hammers and standing on the spokes etc without any effect, which reassures me about their strength having also seen the TdF video of the guy hitting the dog and his Obermayers turning into dust.......

And very impressive on the TT time by the way!

il_principe

gtvlusso wrote:

See what you can pick up on t'interweb cheap! See how you feel on them. Deep rims do get badly affected by crosswind - always fun on a downhill section! My road wheels have a 35mm deep V rim and my "current" race wheels are Cosmic Carbones, unused this year :-(

+1 especially if you're running a light bike. I weigh 75kg, the bike weighs around 6.9kg and I got blown all over the shop on a windy ride Wiltshire. By "all over the shop" I mean that on several occasions me and the bike got yanked at least a metre to the left\right in the blink of an eye. It was no an enjoyable experience and i was pleased I don't weigh less! Of course I'm sure you won't get wind like that in RP!

mrc1

cjcp wrote:

I think there are two points here:

1. whether they will help in RP; and
2. whether they will help in other elite events.

If you're Elite, do you set off early in the London Duathlon, because there seemed to be an awful lot of bike traffic when I spectated last year? It would be worth asking on the 3-Lap Challenge thread. I think Felgen has recently bought some aero wheels and attributed a faster time to them.

The Elite race sets off at stupid o'clock before the normal challenge race gets going as it is drafting allowed so there shouldnt be any traffic to avoid.

I will brave a question on the 3 lap board.......

gtvlusso

If you are allowed to draft - I would stick with your normal wheels and adjust my position to sit below an opponents arse height - i.e. face in stem! - drafting will achieve more. in terms of energy conservation, than spending a shedload of dosh on new wheels (although new wheels look nice and are every riders dream!!!!). If you buy specific wheels you will use them "X" times a year - set of good yet reasonably priced wheels you may choose to use all year around!

You will also not suffer any cross wind battering....!

TT races are all non-draft events, leads to disqualification - even if it is just a complaint from another rider - organisers are very harsh on it, been there done that!!!

mrc1

gtvlusso wrote:

If you are allowed to draft - I would stick with your normal wheels and adjust my position to sit below an opponents ars* height - i.e. face in stem! - drafting will achieve more. in terms of energy conservation, than spending a shedload of dosh on new wheels (although new wheels look nice and are every riders dream!!!!).

I have to admit that this was playing on my mind. Although it does suppose that my run is fast enough that I am able to get onto someone's back wheel in the first place

cjcp

Yeah, +1. You'll be in a mini-peleton. Probably more important where you place yourself within that bunch and don't do all the work. No harm in getting better wheels, but not convinced about fully aero ones.

cjcp

mrcartledge wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

If you are allowed to draft - I would stick with your normal wheels and adjust my position to sit below an opponents ars* height - i.e. face in stem! - drafting will achieve more. in terms of energy conservation, than spending a shedload of dosh on new wheels (although new wheels look nice and are every riders dream!!!!).

I have to admit that this was playing on my mind. Although it does suppose that my run is fast enough that I am able to get onto someone's back wheel in the first place

So, what's the plan then? Launch the decisive attack at the foot of Broomfield second time round to leave the rest floundering?

mrc1

cjcp wrote:

mrcartledge wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

If you are allowed to draft - I would stick with your normal wheels and adjust my position to sit below an opponents ars* height - i.e. face in stem! - drafting will achieve more. in terms of energy conservation, than spending a shedload of dosh on new wheels (although new wheels look nice and are every riders dream!!!!).

I have to admit that this was playing on my mind. Although it does suppose that my run is fast enough that I am able to get onto someone's back wheel in the first place

So, what's the plan then? Launch the decisive attack at the foot of Broomfield second time round to leave the rest floundering?

To be honest I was thinking about employing a few friends to let the other people's tyres down while we are out doing the first run...... :oops:

il_principe

Why are they letting you draft, is that standard practive for Dual's? It's not allowed in Tri's is it?
Drafting of course will make a huge difference, far more than wheel will. Just remember that if you do get in a good bunch make sure you take a turn at the front, it's very bad form not to!

gtvlusso

No drafting in Tri or TT. Very harsh penalties if it is even mentioned....!

il_principe

gtvlusso wrote:

No drafting in Tri or TT. Very harsh penalties if it is even mentioned....!

That's what I thought...

mrc1

I have done a couple of drafting allowed and a couple of non-drafting races - it seems to depend on the event. I think as this is such a short race (5k Run, 1 lap on the bike and a 2.5k run and as it is a relatively small field of elites it would be very difficult not to draft as 5k isnt going to seperate us out much.

mrc1

Il Principe wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

No drafting in Tri or TT. Very harsh penalties if it is even mentioned....!

That's what I thought...

The elite sprint tri race at Blenheim was drafting. As I said above I think they allow it in shorter races just because it would be impossible not to draft due to the short opening event not seperating people.

gtvlusso

I did a couple of duathlons a few years back at Castle Combe racetrack - it was listed as a non drafting event, but with the peloton, it was impossible not too - I think it is more, no drafting if you break away! With TT - you are set off at time intervals, so, in theory, you should never meet, but if you do - no drafting. With triathlon, depends on your swim and transition - ultimately, you probably are too spaced out in the field to try and draft, but if you do uner full regs, you are history!

Forget the wheels - become very slimi and like a wing and get yer face in someones butt!!

Meus Turgum, Vestri Visio - My arse, your face - Socrates*

*I do talk some rubbish!

Pokerface

gabriel959 wrote:

Are you aware that they cost a fortune? I suppose it doesnt matter much seeing as you adding a Ciocc to your fleet.

The thing is that Zipps are tubulars and unless you are going to race properly I don't think it is worth it to buy something like that.

Zipps are not tubular only. I have the clincher version. Heavier - but just as fast (especially on a flat course).

Expensive - yes. But not outrageously so if you shop around.

They probably save me a good minute on a 10 mile TT over regular wheels.

il_principe

mrcartledge wrote:

I have done a couple of drafting allowed and a couple of non-drafting races - it seems to depend on the event. I think as this is such a short race (5k Run, 1 lap on the bike and a 2.5k run and as it is a relatively small field of elites it would be very difficult not to draft as 5k isnt going to seperate us out much.

1 lap? I really wouldn't bother with the wheels then. A car free RP should allow for some serious speed. Just get on the bars/in the drops and fcuking nail it (no need to come out of the big ring at all). Whic direction will you be going?

cjcp

1 lap? You've got to be looking at a 17min lap then going c/wise, surely?

mrc1

Going by last year's course map (they havent confirmed anything yet) it will be a clockwise loop. I prefer anti-clockwise but it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Re the race plan I totally agree with Jash - Single speeding has given me good high GI climbing legs so I plan to power up the hill in the big ring and then just take roundabouts/corners with traffic free abandon and generally smash the course.

cjcp

mrcartledge wrote:

so I plan to power up the hill in the big ring and then just take roundabouts/corners with traffic free abandon and generally smash the course.

I should hope so. I go up that in a 53x21 with a backpack (very, very slowly though). So, if you go into the 39, you'll be a big girl, in which case you shouldn't dare darken our doorstep again. :P


Note: I've consistently gone up that hill faster in the 39 with a higher cadence than I have in the 53 with a lower cadence. It's worth experimenting.