Instead the good bits of the tour, not dope

Neil Buckley

I'm quite new to cycling so I dont really know about the crap in the past like Festina etc etc did read a book on Marco Pantani once which was like a medical report, only really started 2ish years ago and joined a club 6-7 months ago to 'educate' myself about cycling, its great learning about Merckx etc etc and have been enjoying the tour this year being able to understand it, cancellaras decent from a puncture on stage 7, wiggins on pretty much every stage, Millar comming ohhhhhh sooooo close. I'm a bit bored with the crap posts bout 'he got out of bed this morning so must be doped' or ' he shared possibly the same hotel room with someone who had a cold in the 1908 tour must be doping'

So if anyone wants to enjoy the tour like me without pointing there finger at every performance saying its tainted come along....

BTW I have a VO2 max of 59 does that make me smacked off me tits??

Kléber

You're new to the sport Neil. Give it five years and after watching many riders get busted, you'll become more cynical

After all the podiums from the Olympic road race champion and Giro d'Italia are going to be rejigged because of doping. This is becoming a common problem, we watch a race but discover after the event that some of the riders were cheating their way to results, that doping is still skewing the results.

A suggestion: instead of hoping the problem will go away, become vocal on the matter of anti-doping, support the riders who do the right things, back those who condemn the cheats and keep your distance from teams and riders with persistent links to scandal. There are plenty of riders doing a great job.

takethehighroad

You missed the glory days between the Vuelta in 2005 to the Giro in 2007 where the winner of every grand Tour was found to be either implicated in doping or tested positive.

If that doesn't give you cynicism I don't know what will. Watch the classics, the winner's of those only do coke so...

Jez mon

In particular the now farcical 2006 tour. Oscar Pereiro is a good rider, but isn't really a tour de france GC rider, yet he "won" the tour de france.

Neil Buckley

Some good points there, dont get me wrong I absoultly despise the dopers, watching them getting caught is fantastic, proves the blood passport is working, just every performance gets scorn poured over it, like Wiggos for heavens sake!!!!

I'm a big supporter of the Garmin and Cervelo test team, and respect people like Dave Millar, contraversal I know, but least he was honest put his hand up, payed his dues and made the effort to change the sport, also Steve Cummings ive been lucky enough to meet him and have a bit of a ride, decent character who answered some of my proberly stupid questions, and Andy Wilkinson (Lands end - John O'Groats time world record holder) whos pointed me the right way time trailing, and helped me no end racing. Not to mention people like Wiggo, Sir Chris Hoy, Cav, Thor Hushovd, Henrich Hassler, Vicky Pendleton, Marco Pinotti etc etc,

I just dont understand why we give so much column inches on here about all the f**kheads, like Kleber said which is a good point, the plenty of riders doing a great job, to be truthful im a little unsure who they are!

Garry H

Neil Buckley wrote:

people like Dave Millar, contraversal I know, but least he was honest put his hand up, payed his dues and made the effort to change the sport,

You mean the red hand that was inside the cookie jar

bobtbuilder

Unfortunately, so many recent "superhuman" performances in Grand Tours have later proved to be dope-fuelled, that we've started to treat any decent ride with suspicion.

Landis' solo ride, Basso "winning" the Giro by 9 minutes, Heras in the Vuelta, Vinokourov's time trial when he could barely walk following his crash. The list goes on......

Neil Buckley

Be honest I'd love people to explain the history behind all of it but a) if what I read is any thing to go it would just be a witch hunt b) whats confirmed truth anyhow

I thought Dave Millar admitted before he got caught 6 of 1 half dozen of the other he is doing great things for anti doping, least hes being honest and straight up....

Im going to look forward to the mighty Mount Ventoux and watch the fire works go, any predictions people to this explosive stage..................

paulcuthbert

Neil, just enjoy cycling. It's a great thing- and just because someone is implicated, it doesn't mean they're a doper. Far from it. So just ignore anything you hear, is what I'd say

Neil Buckley

Oh trust me I do, I live for getting on me Pinarello, hope Bertie goes to Caisse next year so hes riding one!!!! gutted im going afghan soon, might try start the Helmand Province Crit series could be good!!!! will beat even montoux........actually I proberly doubt it.....

Garry H

Neil Buckley wrote:

I thought Dave Millar admitted before he got caught 6 of 1 half dozen of the other he is doing great things for anti doping, least hes being honest and straight up....
/quote]

No, he got caught, lied for a bit then admitted all. Anyhow, I agree that he's doing great things now. If only the likes of Basso et al would follow in his footsteps.

Bit off topic, but who are the five Jamaican athletes that tested positive at the Olympics? Just heard it on the news :shock:

iainf72

Garry H wrote:

No, he got caught, lied for a bit then admitted all. Anyhow, I agree that he's doing great things now. If only the likes of Basso et al would follow in his footsteps.

One might suggest Basso is doing more to prove he's clean than Millar is.

stagehopper

If there's one big consolation to take out of this tour, I think it's we've seen far fewer superhuman performances which defy explanation than in many a year. That doesn't mean that there's no doping, but it's had the feel of a tour which is "cleaner".

paulcuthbert

stagehopper wrote:

If there's one big consolation to take out of this tour, I think it's we've seen far fewer superhuman performances which defy explanation than in many a year. That doesn't mean that there's no doping, but it's had the feel of a tour which is "cleaner".

And there's been no teams having to withdraw because riders have returned positive tests. A step forward, definitely

Neil Buckley

Just finished watching Ventoux, feel a touch sorry for Tony Martin, grafted all the way up and robbed of it, absoulutly chuffed for Bradley what a gutsy performance, bloke is a hero!!!

deal

iainf72 wrote:

Garry H wrote:

No, he got caught, lied for a bit then admitted all. Anyhow, I agree that he's doing great things now. If only the likes of Basso et al would follow in his footsteps.

One might suggest Basso is doing more to prove he's clean than Millar is.

how do you mean?

RichN95.

Neil Buckley wrote:

Just finished watching Ventoux, feel a touch sorry for Tony Martin, grafted all the way up and robbed of it, absoulutly chuffed for Bradley what a gutsy performance, bloke is a hero!!!

Neil you may be a self confessed novice and I may have been watching this race since 1986, but your sentiments exactly mirror mine.

jackhammer111 - banned

Please don't become all self-righteous and go around waving your arms in the air acting like your hair is on fire every time someone gets implicated.

Understand that the peloton is culture with an institutionalized memory that goes back over a hundred years and drugs have always been part of that .
"The acceptance of drug-taking in the Tour de France was so complete by 1930, when the race changed to national teams that were to be paid for by the organisers, that the rule book distributed to riders by the organiser, Henri Desgrange, reminded them that drugs were not among items with which they would be provided."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_do ... te_note-18

All the shame on you finger wagging and snooty moralizing isn't going to change that fact any more than it can change human nature.

Once you understand that, you can understand why it's no simple matter to stop it. In fact, it will never be completely stopped any more you can stop the rich from scamming the poor.

However, since the sport has been commericalised, homoginized, shrink wrapped and sanitized it's no longer acceptable, and I agree that it's not.

Now that there are millions available to spend on anti-doping enforcement the science is available to, if not stop it, make the rider wonder if the huge risks are worth the ever shrinking rewards.

We may have just seen the cleanest Tour since EPO came into the sport.

If you want be conversant on the topic you have to learn a bit of science. How things like steroids, EPO, HGH, and blood manipulation work. I don't think Gene doping is here yet but I'd bet the Passport people are looking at it.

And of course, learn about the Passport monitoring program.

Just don't bore me pontificating that anyone ever associated with doping is a complete fraud and deserves to burn in hell.

Garry H

jackhammer111 wrote:

Please don't become all self-righteous and go around waving your arms in the air acting like your hair is on fire every time someone gets implicated.

Understand that the peloton is culture with an institutionalized memory that goes back over a hundred years and drugs have always been part of that .
"The acceptance of drug-taking in the Tour de France was so complete by 1930, when the race changed to national teams that were to be paid for by the organisers, that the rule book distributed to riders by the organiser, Henri Desgrange, reminded them that drugs were not among items with which they would be provided."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_do ... te_note-18

All the shame on you finger wagging and snooty moralizing isn't going to change that fact any more than it can change human nature.

Once you understand that, you can understand why it's no simple matter to stop it. In fact, it will never be completely stopped any more you can stop the rich from scamming the poor.

However, since the sport has been commericalised, homoginized, shrink wrapped and sanitized it's no longer acceptable, and I agree that it's not.

Now that there are millions available to spend on anti-doping enforcement the science is available to, if not stop it, make the rider wonder if the huge risks are worth the ever shrinking rewards.

We may have just seen the cleanest Tour since EPO came into the sport.

If you want be conversant on the topic you have to learn a bit of science. How things like steroids, EPO, HGH, and blood manipulation work. I don't think Gene doping is here yet but I'd bet the Passport people are looking at it.

And of course, learn about the Passport monitoring program.

Just don't bore me pontificating that anyone ever associated with doping is a complete fraud and deserves to burn in hell.

I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say thanks Jack, until you came on here and enlightened us all, none of us had any idea what had been going on in the sport. :roll:

Neil Buckley

Nah am not going to start being all emotional when someone gets implicated, innocent till proven guilty and all that good stuff, think cycling could do with remebering that.

I'm just going to enjoy this great sport, seeing what I can learn, I know it wont happen but I would love to see Bradley to go all persuitor when they hit paris because he deserves a stage win, i'm still 50/50 on the green jersey, but did anyone see the 'sprint' between Cav and Thor on Ventoux, nice to see.

But to be truthful Jack your wrong and right someone who HAS doped is a complete fraud and doesnt care about anyone or the sport, but they seem to all be getting caught, but right about assiocation, innocent till proven guilty, not witch hunting which cycling is guilty of!

I have to say thanks to Jack because I obiously still need a fair bit of enlightenment!!

moray_gub

Neil Buckley wrote:

Just finished watching Ventoux, feel a touch sorry for Tony Martin, grafted all the way up and robbed of it, absoulutly chuffed for Bradley what a gutsy performance, bloke is a hero!!!

Garate forced the selection at the bottom of Ventoux twice and then again to take it down to two then shared the work with Martin so i dont think anyone was robbed.

jackhammer111 - banned

Neil Buckley wrote:

Nah am not going to start being all emotional when someone gets implicated, innocent till proven guilty and all that good stuff, think cycling could do with remebering that.

I'm just going to enjoy this great sport, seeing what I can learn, I know it wont happen but I would love to see Bradley to go all persuitor when they hit paris because he deserves a stage win, i'm still 50/50 on the green jersey, but did anyone see the 'sprint' between Cav and Thor on Ventoux, nice to see.

But to be truthful Jack your wrong and right someone who HAS doped is a complete fraud and doesnt care about anyone or the sport, but they seem to all be getting caught, but right about assiocation, innocent till proven guilty, not witch hunting which cycling is guilty of!

I have to say thanks to Jack because I obiously still need a fair bit of enlightenment!!

The reason I included that link to the history of doping is that it's important to have context on the reality of the past and how pervasive doping has always been. The reality is that if you condemn as frauds all riders who took performance enhancers you won't enjoy reading about most of the past of cycling.
I promote a compassionate view of the past that emphasizes the importance of context. (not just in cycling actually)
If someone is convicted of a crime are you one that condemns them as unredeemable for their whole lives? Or can you accept that often good people do bad things or even things that look worse from our perspective than they did from their own.

Neil Buckley

Definatly Jack least your quite balenced on the disscussion and put your points over very well, good people do bad things I guess it's a fact of life, people like David Millar decided to try make a change for the best to help people and to see him at the front today was good, however briefly, but people can at least say yer he did the crime and paid the price but least hes made the effort to make people aware, so I respect him for that an effort to redeem himself, but people like Vinokorov (unsure of the spelling!!) with refusing to pay the anti doping moneys his arrogance on returning, I will go Astana retiring to try get his ban overturned, just says arrogant prick to me and is unredeemable because he was fully in control of what he did and his actions after it prove that he didn't care.

But all in all a great tour, really thought Garmin were going to pull out a what would have been a very very well deserved win, but hey ho!!!! imagine if AC ended up there would be great think that set up would suit him but Caise seems to be the forerunner here? wish I could sprint like Cav, the side shot to the line was fantastic to show the speed and power he puts down!!

Neil Buckley

BTW Moray your not the only person to say that think it must be the Eurosport commentry, and Jack im still reading that mahoosive document, so untill ive read it a bit more mate!!!!

jackhammer111 - banned

Neil Buckley wrote:

Definatly Jack least your quite balenced on the disscussion and put your points over very well, good people do bad things I guess it's a fact of life, people like David Millar decided to try make a change for the best to help people and to see him at the front today was good, however briefly, but people can at least say yer he did the crime and paid the price but least hes made the effort to make people aware, so I respect him for that an effort to redeem himself, but people like Vinokorov (unsure of the spelling!!) with refusing to pay the anti doping moneys his arrogance on returning, I will go Astana retiring to try get his ban overturned, just says arrogant prick to me and is unredeemable because he was fully in control of what he did and his actions after it prove that he didn't care.

But all in all a great tour, really thought Garmin were going to pull out a what would have been a very very well deserved win, but hey ho!!!! imagine if AC ended up there would be great think that set up would suit him but Caise seems to be the forerunner here? wish I could sprint like Cav, the side shot to the line was fantastic to show the speed and power he puts down!!

Well, of course, it is sport so we're alowed to dislike people for whatever reason we choose. so... you and I are on the same page about Vino. A pox on Vino and whatever is left of Astana after Lance and Johan clear out the place.

I'm just hoping they change the jersey so I don't have to get rid of the kit I have.

Gamin sure had a good plan today but in the end Hincapie would have none of it. He took the race back and Cav just blew them away. It was joyous to watch. Understanding what he felt looking up at the Arc de Triomphe is to understand how we get vicarious thrills out of being fans.

DaveyL

iainf72 wrote:

Garry H wrote:

No, he got caught, lied for a bit then admitted all. Anyhow, I agree that he's doing great things now. If only the likes of Basso et al would follow in his footsteps.

One might suggest Basso is doing more to prove he's clean than Millar is.

Only just seen this litle gem. You *are* a card.

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

One might suggest Basso is doing more to prove he's clean than Millar is.

Only just seen this litle gem. You *are* a card.[/quote]

Well, he is, isn't he? You can logon and see his blood results and how many watts he's putting out...

Lordy, even Lemond would have to be satisfied.

Neil Buckley

Think Big G had the last laugh with Garmin..........its pains me to say that too! Chapau le tour!!

DaveyL

And Millar is in a team where they will release blood values, who regularly post riders' power meter data (from real races, mind you), where they let Paul Kimmage room with them during a three week GT, etc.

And Ivan is on Liquigas.

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

And Ivan is on Liquigas.

So is Vinny "Team Sky" Nibali. And Roman "drug free tattoo" K.

DaveyL

Is that a wash-off one like Damian O'Cunego's got?