Tour de France 2009 - A Master Class in Down Hill

nicensleazy

So graceful....enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgVmq4UB ... r_embedded

knedlicky

This video has already been discussed in the section Pro Race, where several people admired Cancellara's skill. I was more conservative in my admiration.

On the recent rest day, Tour riders were asked to say who was the best descender in the peloton and the 'winner' was Hushovd, although I'm unclear how many can judge, when on any descent they are all so spaced out.

pottssteve

Great work for the camerabike to stay with him as well, and some great shots from the helicoptor!

Beautiful riding... 8)

Ollieda

quick question......I was always told when cornering not to have my inside knee sticking out when taking a corner, but Cancellara is doing it on a lot of corners in the vid. Have I been taught wrong or is it just when you get to the level and speed he's at its something you start having to do again? See around 0:30 mark for what I mean, before then he is keeping his knees in.

bobpzero

so they do steer with the hips. in a cycling weekly (cant remember which one as i think its be handed off to someone) it had rob hayles article about his descending skills. tho once cancellara did the bg fit thingy andy priutt noticed cancellara has a body thats shaped perfectly for cycling which seems to be a rare thing. definitely amazing

cee

i have 3 questions about this that maybe some of you road riders can answer....

At those sort of speeds (i.e. crazy fast), would sticking a knee out like that steer the bike....air resistance or something??

Do you think that in some points in that video, that the team cars were actually in his way and hindered him a little?

How do riders such as Cadel Evans (who come from Mountian Biking) compare in the descents to other riders??

Thanks guys and girls.

C

balthazar

Ollieda wrote:

quick question......I was always told when cornering not to have my inside knee sticking out when taking a corner, but Cancellara is doing it on a lot of corners in the vid. Have I been taught wrong or is it just when you get to the level and speed he's at its something you start having to do again? See around 0:30 mark for what I mean, before then he is keeping his knees in.

Sit back and read this article by Jobst Brandt:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

I think it is, by an order of magnitude, the best advice about cycling downhill that you'll find on the web. Reading it again, I'm struck by how concise, thorough, and non-sensational it is.

jrduquemin

That is an amazing display of descending at high speed. Wish I could ride like that :-)

Stewie Griffin

I may have had the Plums to ride like that in my twenties but defo not now in my late thirties

pedylan

pottssteve wrote:

Great work for the camerabike to stay with him as well, and some great shots from the helicoptor!

Beautiful riding... 8)

It wasn't the Lanterne rouge's commuter headcam then?

Pity......

NWLondoner

I wish I could descend like that. If i tried i'd be like Jens Voigt :shock:

mmitchell88

balthazar wrote:

Ollieda wrote:

quick question......I was always told when cornering not to have my inside knee sticking out when taking a corner, but Cancellara is doing it on a lot of corners in the vid. Have I been taught wrong or is it just when you get to the level and speed he's at its something you start having to do again? See around 0:30 mark for what I mean, before then he is keeping his knees in.

Sit back and read this article by Jobst Brandt:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

I think it is, by an order of magnitude, the best advice about cycling downhill that you'll find on the web. Reading it again, I'm struck by how concise, thorough, and non-sensational it is.

But I don't think it answers the query from balthazar. The analogy with dirt bikes (motorcycles) in the article is irrelevant - a better one would be cornering with road/race motorcycles, and those guys stick their knees out every time they meet a corner.

Balthazar - what was the rationale you were given for not sticking the knee out (other than the fact that if you go down you're not wearing kneesliders a la Rossi?)

balthazar

mmitchell88 wrote:

But I don't think it answers the query from balthazar. The analogy with dirt bikes (motorcycles) in the article is irrelevant - a better one would be cornering with road/race motorcycles, and those guys stick their knees out every time they meet a corner.

Balthazar - what was the rationale you were given for not sticking the knee out (other than the fact that if you go down you're not wearing kneesliders a la Rossi?)

You have your names mixed up; I think you're addressing Ollieda, not me. In any case, I'll quote from the cited article:

Some riders believe that sticking the knee out or leaning the body away from the bicycle, improves cornering. Sticking out a knee is the same thing that riders without cleats do when they stick out a foot in dirt track motorcycle fashion. On paved roads this is a useless but reassuring gesture that, on uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or sticking out a knee) puts a side load on the bicycle, and side loads cause steering motions over uneven road. Getting weight off the saddle is also made more difficult by such maneuvers.

I think that is fully relevant to the query.

Rockhopper

Sticking your knee out on on road motorbike is really a track only thing and is used to hopefully avoid loosing the front wheel. They are pushing so hard that they basically then have three points of contact with the road and if they are really good they can pick the front up with their knee and save a crash.
The whole hanging off and sticking out bits of body etc is to keep the bike as upright as possible through the corner.
Re Cancellaras decent - i think he was using the motorbikes that were infront of him to get an indication of what the next corner was going to do.

daviesee

"On paved roads this is a useless but reassuring gesture that, on uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or sticking out a knee)"

So, I should not be leaning my bike?

I am fairly sure that turning the bars while upright at 40mph would end up in a serious disaster :shock:

Validity lost.

ozzzyosborn206

there is more grip in the center of your tyre than the side, harder to know through road ridding but on a mtb if you corner on loose stuff and stick your knee out you are much more likly to slide out than if you keep your knee in even if your bike is at the same angle

balthazar

daviesee wrote:

"On paved roads this is a useless but reassuring gesture that, on uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or sticking out a knee)"

So, I should not be leaning my bike?

I am fairly sure that turning the bars while upright at 40mph would end up in a serious disaster :shock:

Validity lost.

I don't see what is unclear in this, yet you have taken from it a peculiar meaning. The point is to keep centred over the bike: obviously rider and bike lean together round corners. Many cyclists like to push the bike to one side or other during cornering, however, perhaps because they've seen motorcyclists do it; the advice in the cited article is that this is not beneficial for bicycles, and actually detrimental to control.

What does "Validity lost" mean? Now I'm confused!

mmitchell88

balthazar wrote:

mmitchell88 wrote:

But I don't think it answers the query from balthazar. The analogy with dirt bikes (motorcycles) in the article is irrelevant - a better one would be cornering with road/race motorcycles, and those guys stick their knees out every time they meet a corner.

Balthazar - what was the rationale you were given for not sticking the knee out (other than the fact that if you go down you're not wearing kneesliders a la Rossi?)

You have your names mixed up; I think you're addressing Ollieda, not me. In any case, I'll quote from the cited article:

Some riders believe that sticking the knee out or leaning the body away from the bicycle, improves cornering. Sticking out a knee is the same thing that riders without cleats do when they stick out a foot in dirt track motorcycle fashion. On paved roads this is a useless but reassuring gesture that, on uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or sticking out a knee) puts a side load on the bicycle, and side loads cause steering motions over uneven road. Getting weight off the saddle is also made more difficult by such maneuvers.

I think that is fully relevant to the query.

Apologies blathazar - yes, I did get names mixed up.

The reason I said it was not relevant was because the article uses dirt motorbike technique (where feet come off the footpegs) as an analogy for road cycle technique. But what Cancellara was doing was much closer to track motorcycle technique (where feet stay on the footpegs*). The article claims then that it's a useless gesture, but doesn't say why. It only says that when you're leaned over, you've got less control which is worse on uneven surfaces. I don't disagree. I'd just like to know why sticking your knee out on a bicycle is a 'useless gesture' for getting around a corner at high speeds, while motorcyclists frequently use it when racing.

rockhopper wrote:

The whole hanging off and sticking out bits of body etc is to keep the bike as upright as possible through the corner.

The issue of hanging off/getting your knee down and what advantage it offers is widely debated by motorcyclists. But I think this point about the technique is generally accepted. So does Cancellara's 'knee out' technique result in the same phenomenon/advantage? If not, why not? If it does, why isn't it more widely adopted?



*And then Rossi has confused the entire thing by sticking his entire leg out in recent seasons.

balthazar

mmitchell88 wrote:

The reason I said it was not relevant was because the article uses dirt motorbike technique (where feet come off the footpegs) as an analogy for road cycle technique. But what Cancellara was doing was much closer to track motorcycle technique (where feet stay on the footpegs*). The article claims then that it's a useless gesture, but doesn't say why. It only says that when you're leaned over, you've got less control which is worse on uneven surfaces. I don't disagree. I'd just like to know why sticking your knee out on a bicycle is a 'useless gesture' for getting around a corner at high speeds, while motorcyclists frequently use it when racing.

I think the theme of the article is that it is always beneficial for a cyclist to be centred and balanced over the bike, as much as possible. "Knee-out" (or any other contortion) is no more helpful in corners than it is on straight road. It is "useless" because it has no use.

I don't know why motorbike racers do it, beyond allowing engine clearance which may be less of an issue these days. Maybe the slidey knee is a helpful gauge to the precise lean angle for the rider, or some such.

mmitchell88

balthazar wrote:

I think the theme of the article is that it is always beneficial for a cyclist to be centred and balanced over the bike, as much as possible. "Knee-out" (or any other contortion) is no more helpful in corners than it is on straight road. It is "useless" because it has no use.

I don't know why motorbike racers do it, beyond allowing engine clearance which may be less of an issue these days. Maybe the slidey knee is a helpful gauge to the precise lean angle for the rider, or some such.

The interesting part of this for me is that motorcycle racers haven't always used a knee-down technique. When Kevin Schwantz started to popularise it in racing, there was almost open ridicule about why anyone would want to do it, for some of the reasons already discussed (what's the advantage/it's another thing to worry about/you'll upset the bike as you clamber all over it). It's clearly unnecessary for everyday motorcycle road riding, but competitive racers adopted it because it does get you around a corner faster compared with when you keep your knees tucked in.

You're also right - moto racers do use it to guage lean angle. And when they're pushing hard in the corners, if they lose the front there is a natural point of contact which they can literally use to push against. Colin Edwards has shown some spectacular saves in MotoGP in recent years. Not an appealing approach for cyclists however...! :?

...Anyway, I wouldn't argue that stability is all the reason I need for not sticking bits of my body out while descending!

markos1963

mmitchell88 wrote:

balthazar wrote:

I think the theme of the article is that it is always beneficial for a cyclist to be centred and balanced over the bike, as much as possible. "Knee-out" (or any other contortion) is no more helpful in corners than it is on straight road. It is "useless" because it has no use.

I don't know why motorbike racers do it, beyond allowing engine clearance which may be less of an issue these days. Maybe the slidey knee is a helpful gauge to the precise lean angle for the rider, or some such.

The interesting part of this for me is that motorcycle racers haven't always used a knee-down technique. When Kevin Schwantz started to popularise it in racing, there was almost open ridicule about why anyone would want to do it, for some of the reasons already discussed (what's the advantage/it's another thing to worry about/you'll upset the bike as you clamber all over it). It's clearly unnecessary for everyday motorcycle road riding, but competitive racers adopted it because it does get you around a corner faster compared with when you keep your knees tucked in.

You're also right - moto racers do use it to guage lean angle. And when they're pushing hard in the corners, if they lose the front there is a natural point of contact which they can literally use to push against. Colin Edwards has shown some spectacular saves in MotoGP in recent years. Not an appealing approach for cyclists however...! :?

...Anyway, I wouldn't argue that stability is all the reason I need for not sticking bits of my body out while descending!

Keevin Schwantz had nothing to do with the indtroduction of knee out riding, Jarno Saarinen is the rider who first made it popular and Kenny Roberts Snr took it to the next level. The reason for it is that it allows a change of centre of gravity, allowing it to move towards the ground and in towards the bend, this allows the bike to remain more upright and therefore keeps the tyres in better contact with the road. It does have a relevance for cyclists going downhill but obviously we need to pedal so its not much use on the flat unless speed is high. The other thing we can learn from motorbiking is the weighted outside foot. If going around a left hand bend you put the right foot crank down to the 0630 position and then take the weight through the RH foot so you can feel the saddle lighten under your body your cornering should improve greatly.

mmitchell88

markos1963 wrote:

Keevin Schwantz had nothing to do with the indtroduction of knee out riding, Jarno Saarinen is the rider who first made it popular and Kenny Roberts Snr took it to the next level. The reason for it is that it allows a change of centre of gravity, allowing it to move towards the ground and in towards the bend, this allows the bike to remain more upright and therefore keeps the tyres in better contact with the road. It does have a relevance for cyclists going downhill but obviously we need to pedal so its not much use on the flat unless speed is high. The other thing we can learn from motorbiking is the weighted outside foot. If going around a left hand bend you put the right foot crank down to the 0630 position and then take the weight through the RH foot so you can feel the saddle lighten under your body your cornering should improve greatly.

I knew Schwantz didn't introduce the technique, which was why I didn't claim he did - fair do's on the other points.

nolf

1) Mitchell I love your new sig

2) It's worth having a look at countersteering at higher speeds.

Use your inside knee- press against the top tube, then weight on the outside leg, then actually use your handlebars to turn a tiny bit and you can do surprisingly sharp corners.

daviesee

balthazar wrote:

daviesee wrote:

"On paved roads this is a useless but reassuring gesture that, on uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or sticking out a knee)"

So, I should not be leaning my bike?

I am fairly sure that turning the bars while upright at 40mph would end up in a serious disaster :shock:

Validity lost.

I don't see what is unclear in this, yet you have taken from it a peculiar meaning. The point is to keep centred over the bike: obviously rider and bike lean together round corners. Many cyclists like to push the bike to one side or other during cornering, however, perhaps because they've seen motorcyclists do it; the advice in the cited article is that this is not beneficial for bicycles, and actually detrimental to control.

What does "Validity lost" mean? Now I'm confused!

What was unclear was using the phrase "keep centred over the bike". This read as keeping the bike upright during cornering. Due to centrifugal forces this cannot be good advice as the faster you are going the more you have to lean over to combat the centrifugal forces.
There comes a point at high speed where the tyres will lose grip on the side walls if you lean over any further but centrifugal forces will have you understeering. At this point dropping a knee will lower your centre of gravity without affecting the tyres contact point which will reduce the effect of understeer.

There are a whole lot of mathematical calculations going on here which I doubt very few could explain within the split seconds of cornering so we do it all subconsciously and call it "feel". Isn't the human brain amazing! :P

"Validity lost" was referring to the statement which I read to be - staying upright. If that was the intention then as it is incorrect all validity in the rest of the article would be brought into doubt.

We may very well be arguing the same point but confusing each other, and others, with our bad choice of words/phrases.

If it feels good and is not illegal or immoral, then do it!

dbb

markos1963 wrote:

The other thing we can learn from motorbiking is the weighted outside foot. If going around a left hand bend you put the right foot crank down to the 0630 position and then take the weight through the RH foot so you can feel the saddle lighten under your body your cornering should improve greatly.

this is great advice is you want to corner faster on your descending.

another useful tip is to also apply weight to your inside hand on the bars.

these two things really made a difference to my descending when i learned about them and developed the skills.

markos1963

dbb wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

The other thing we can learn from motorbiking is the weighted outside foot. If going around a left hand bend you put the right foot crank down to the 0630 position and then take the weight through the RH foot so you can feel the saddle lighten under your body your cornering should improve greatly.

this is great advice is you want to corner faster on your descending.

another useful tip is to also apply weight to your inside hand on the bars.

these two things really made a difference to my descending when i learned about them and developed the skills.

Its a shame I only learned about this towards the end of a 25 year motorbike riding career, once learned I was so much faster through the bends that my mates thought i had changed stuff on my bike( or I had lost my marbles and had a death wish )

balthazar

daviesee wrote:

There comes a point at high speed where the tyres will lose grip on the side walls if you lean over any further but centrifugal forces will have you understeering. At this point dropping a knee will lower your centre of gravity without affecting the tyres contact point which will reduce the effect of understeer.

I'm afraid that I don't understand any of this at all. I thought understeer was front wheel slip, something that road bicycles can't do because the rider crashes when his tyres lose grip, there being no practically detectable transition between grip and slip. I don't see how tyres can lose adhesion from their side walls, which are constituent parts of the tyre.

markos1963 wrote:

The other thing we can learn from motorbiking is the weighted outside foot. If going around a left hand bend you put the right foot crank down to the 0630 position and then take the weight through the RH foot so you can feel the saddle lighten under your body your cornering should improve greatly.

I think the article I cited addressed this, with respect to cycling.

BTW - Daviesee - love your bike.

dilemna

:shock:

dilemna

:shock:

dilemna

Motorcycle tyres are much fatter in profile than bicycle tyres so are more suited to leaning over. To get around a corner quicker the bike/bicycle has to lean. A motorcycle is much heavier than a bicycle so there is greater weight and friction preventing it from leaving the road when cornering at extremes. The compounds of motorbike tyres are far more robust and grippy when at optimum operating temperature than bicycle tyres.

When cornering fast on both a motorbike and bicycle keep handle bars straight knees in and pull slightly on the opposite bar whilst shifting your weight slightly/leaning into the turn to turn the bike. Place more weight on the outside pedal/peg. The bike/bicycle will go around alot quicker and cleanly. Motorcyclists put their knee down as it helps to turn a bike by lowering the centre of gravity and increasing the force exerted to the centre of the bend making the bike turn. That is why motorcyclists shift their weight to the inside edge/side of the bike and then switch for the next bend going in the opposite direction.

Bicycle tyres are not like motorcycle tyres in that they cannot be ridden at extreme angles without risking dropping the bike and crashing.

dilemna

daviesee wrote:

What was unclear was using the phrase "keep centred over the bike". This read as keeping the bike upright during cornering. Due to centrifugal forces this cannot be good advice as the faster you are going the more you have to lean over to combat the centrifugal forces.

There comes a point at high speed where the tyres will lose grip on the side walls if you lean over any further but centrifugal forces will have you understeering. At this point dropping a knee will lower your centre of gravity without affecting the tyres contact point which will reduce the effect of understeer.

There is no such thing as a centrifugal force. You are confusing a machine known as the centrifuge with a physical force. I think you mean the centripetal force which is the force that a body is exerting toward the centre of a circle about which it is turning ie a bend or carousel.