Half the world are assuming Wiggo dopes. It's gettng me down
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If wiggo dopes given the comments he came out with back when the confidis team pulled out etc then I am totally done with this sport.0
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And we don't think Wiggo's doping because...? If a bestubbled Italian with shifty eyes showed Kohl-like improvement I wonder if the OP would take a different view?0
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A lower climbing cadence is actually more mechanically efficient that a higher cadence, and demands less oxygen for the same power output than a 'Armstrong like' higher cadence.FJS wrote:What I have found striking is that Wiggens has taught himself very much the climbing style with which Armstrong emerged back from cancer in 1998: very high rhytm but steady pace. So not the bursts of Contador or Andy Schleck, but also not the power-grinding of Ullrich, or Voigt
It might be argued that Armstrong could only adopt his high-cadence style because he was boosting the amount of available oxygen with Epo/ blood doping. This is especially so given that Armstrong's unexceptional VO2 max ( 81.2 mL/kg/min according to Ed Coyle, measured just after Armstrong won the world RR Championships) did not give him enough oxygen to produce the sort of power outputs he did on the climbs, never mind do so whilst also paying the cost of sustaining a mechanically less efficient higher cadence.
Back in 2006 Basso was another devotee of the 'high cadence' school of climbing, and we know what he was up to to allow him to adopt such a style. The new 'clean' Basso no longer seems to be able to ride in such a way.
GIRO D'ITALIA TOP 10 PREDICTION
1 Ivan Basso
5th
We said: Remember the 2006 Giro? When he rode up every mountain with his mouth shut, breathing through his skin, pursued only by a buffalo on heat?
Verdict: This was not the same Basso as 2006. He struggled to rediscover his effortless high-cadence style and it looked like it hurt.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/Gir ... 83578.html0 -
Hasn't this been shot down on veloriders already, Howard?Le Blaireau (1)0
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aurelio wrote:
We all know that Armstrong's 'weight loss' explanation for his miraculous transformation from Tour also-ran to multiple winner was nonsense, with his winning Tour weight actually being within a kilo or so of his weight when he won the world RR Championships. However, to play devil's advocate, does Wiggin's explanation of his improved climbing ability fare much better?pedalpower wrote:I also find Wiggins convincing. His weight loss is much more convincing a reason than, in my opinion, it was with Armstrong because he was always basically a skinny sort of guy but with a bit of a paunch...
In the article below he says he is now 71 kg with 4% body fat when previously he was 78 kg. This means that he is now carrying 2.84 kg of body fat. Now assuming all that has changed is that he has lost body fat then at 78 kg he would have been carrying 2.84 plus another 7 kg or 9.84 kg of body fat. At 78 kg this would mean his body fat percentage was 12.6%. This seems to be very high for a 'skinny' pro bike racer!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... -de-france
Maybe he wasn't burning muscle with his diet, but if he wasn't doing any exercises to maintain it, then his upper body muscle mass could easily be reduced very quickly. I assume that for his track work Wiggins would have a fair amount of upper body exercises to do.
Wiggins looks to me like someone who is naturally fairly skinny, but who has built up the muscle. When you're like that (as I am), as soon as you stop working on any particular part of the body, you notice the difference very, very quickly - the muscle just vanishes within weeks.
I also read in Cycle Sport earlier this year that British Cycling nutritionists had done pretty much the same with Steve Cummings - he was training on little more than seed bars and energy drinks, but getting a strong expresso down his throat to really boost his metabolism. Cummings also reported a massive improvement in his climbing abilities. In this case he was burning off upper body muscle, but not leg muscle (which I assume Wiggins was referring to in his article). So to cut a long story short, it's entirely plausible that Wiggins has achieved this massive breakthrough by dieting.0 -
I admit that I have read that thread. That 'Howard' guy certainly seems to know what he is talking about, even if I'm not him. But despite what you say the conclusion of the thread seemed to be:DaveyL wrote:Hasn't this been shot down on veloriders already, Howard?'he's probably right'.
Anyhow, what figures do you get for Wiggin's pre weight loss body fat percentage?0 -
From that Guardian article:johnfinch wrote:Wiggins looks to me like someone who is naturally fairly skinny, but who has built up the muscle. When you're like that (as I am), as soon as you stop working on any particular part of the body, you notice the difference very, very quickly - the muscle just vanishes within weeks.
I've had regular check‑ups with Nigel Mitchell, the nutritionist at the Olympic team, to make sure I'm only burning fat, not any muscle.
Surely that means he was maintaining his lean body mass?0 -
AndyRubio wrote:And we don't think Wiggo's doping because...? If a bestubbled Italian with shifty eyes showed Kohl-like improvement I wonder if the OP would take a different view?
Because Wiggins has always been an out-spoken anti-doper, long before it was fashionable (a bit like, say, Philippe Gilbert). I know that he could have just been a big, lying hypocrite all along, but I don't think you risk winding up the whole peloton for nothing.
He is now in a team which set out with a specific goal of racing clean, even if that translates as fewer wins. Look at the talent on their team - Wiggins, Millar, Zabriskie, Farrar, Vandevelde.... and how many wins did they get last season? 7. I'm sure they could do better than that if they were on EPO. And don't forget them giving Paul Kimmage access all areas to the team. for however long it was.
Wiggins has also twice been taken on by teams looking to clean up their act after doping scandals (Cofidis and High Road), and apart from that he's ridden for Credit Agricole and Francaise des Jeux - not teams noted for doping. So I'd give him the benefit of the doubt more than I would a rider who had ridden for T-Mobile, Astana and then Saunier Duval, although I wouldn't want to go too far down the guilty by association road.0 -
Are there any recent anti-doping quotations from Wiggins that you can refer us to?johnfinch wrote:
Because Wiggins has always been an out-spoken anti-doper, long before it was fashionableAndyRubio wrote:And we don't think Wiggo's doping because...? If a bestubbled Italian with shifty eyes showed Kohl-like improvement I wonder if the OP would take a different view?0 -
aurelio tonight's anti DiLuca twitter?You live and learn. At any rate, you live0
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Why are we debating this? Shouldn't we be asking Pro Cycling to phone up Vaughters and get Wiggins' blood profile and power meter data?
Garmin happily published Vandevelde's blood profile last year and Wiggo's power data was put up on their website in the Giro. Presumably they have it from the year before too when he was fatter so you could compare the two.
Otherwise it's all conjecture and basically comes down to belief one way or the other0 -
aurelio wrote:
From that Guardian article:johnfinch wrote:Wiggins looks to me like someone who is naturally fairly skinny, but who has built up the muscle. When you're like that (as I am), as soon as you stop working on any particular part of the body, you notice the difference very, very quickly - the muscle just vanishes within weeks.
I've had regular check‑ups with Nigel Mitchell, the nutritionist at the Olympic team, to make sure I'm only burning fat, not any muscle.
Surely that means he was maintaining his lean body mass?
No, not really, like I say it could be muscle reduction rather than muscle burning. The difference is that if he were burning muscle, then the body would be metabolising muscle for use as energy. On the other hand, if he stopped exercising his arms and chest, the muscle would become smaller. Have a look at this page for a fairly good explanation of how it all works:
http://beebleblog.com/2008/02/15/can-mu ... -into-fat/
You can check this out for yourself. Do as many press-ups as you can 4 or 5 times a week for about a month. Then stop completely. See how long it takes for the muscle to vanish. Seriously, you'll be shocked to see how quickly you lose it. I was.0 -
aurelio wrote:Are there any recent anti-doping quotations from Wiggins that you can refer us to?
You've got me on that one, but then again maybe the sport is cleaning up in general and cyclists like Wiggins don't feel the same need. Also I've not really read the cycling press very much over the last 7 months or so. I've only bought about two magzines since January.
Last one that I read was in his autobiography when he referred to dopers as pondlife and, if my memory serves me well, called for lifetime bans. Is that recent enough?0 -
Whichever way you try to dress it up his comments suggest that he has tried to ensure that he has not lost any muscle mass.johnfinch wrote:... like I say it could be muscle reduction rather than muscle burning. The difference is that if he were burning muscle, then the body would be metabolising muscle for use as energy. On the other hand, if he stopped exercising his arms and chest, the muscle would become smaller.
As to muscle wastage, I have found that even a minimal amount of activity is enough to maintain muscle and that for significant wastage to occur there had to be practically complete immobility, such as occurs if a limb is immobilised in a cast.
Have you any evidence that Wiggins developed a well-muscled upper body at any stage in his career? Any evidence that he has lost such muscle mass in the last year? As you say, he has always looked pretty 'skinny' to me.0 -
aurelio wrote:Whichever way you try to dress it up his comments suggest that he has tried to ensure that he has not lost any muscle mass.
Personally I don't read it like that - I can't see anything more in this than the fact that he doesn't want his exercise regime to start burning muscle, which would also disappear in the legs, rather than just the parts of the body which he might be targetting for weight loss. But then different people, different interpretations...
Don't forget that diet would also make a big difference here. I presume he laid off the eggs for quite a time (ugh, just noticed the unintentional pun there...)aurelio wrote:As to muscle wastage, I have found that even a minimal amount of activity is enough to maintain muscle and that for significant wastage to occur there had to be practically complete immobility, such as occurs if a limb is immobilised in a cast.
You're lucky! Some people can maintain muscle very easily, others, like me, will lost it very quickly without exercise. Can I just ask what your natural physique is like? I know that sounds a bit dodgy, but it's an innocent question, honest!aurelio wrote:Have you any evidence that Wiggins developed a well-muscled upper body at any stage in his career? Any evidence that he has lost such muscle mass in the last year? As you say, he has always looked pretty 'skinny' to me.
I never actually said that Wiggins HAS lost muscle mass, I only said that it is plausible. Obviously I haven't been able to take down accurate readings of his muscle mass, body fat percentage etc (I tried, but he just kept shooing me away). Although having said that, I have just done a quick google image search for Bradley Wiggins in 2007, and Bradley Wiggins now, and although I haven't exactly got a trained eye for this sort of thing, he does look like he isn't as muscular as he was back then.0 -
aurelio wrote:FJS wrote:It might be argued that Armstrong could only adopt his high-cadence style because he was boosting the amount of available oxygen with Epo/ blood doping. This is especially so given that Armstrong's unexceptional VO2 max ( 81.2 mL/kg/min according to Ed Coyle, measured just after Armstrong won the world RR Championships) did not give him enough oxygen to produce the sort of power outputs he did on the climbs, never mind do so whilst also paying the cost of sustaining a mechanically less efficient higher cadence.
According to FdJ's trainer Wiggins has an exceptional VO2 max thus by your theory able to sustain a high cadence riding style.0 -
Is there not some way a rider can publish their blood/urine tests to prove they are clean? As opposed to everyone hanging around, theorising and waiting for positive tests for EPO/CERA/Testosterone, or whatever... Surely a clean blood test result should be published to put minds at rest
Or does even that not appease the doubters?The most painful climb in Northern Ireland http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs200.snc1/6776_124247198694_548863694_2335754_8016178_n.jpg0 -
paulcuthbert wrote:Is there not some way a rider can publish their blood/urine tests to prove they are clean? As opposed to everyone hanging around, theorising and waiting for positive tests for EPO/CERA/Testosterone, or whatever... Surely a clean blood test result should be published to put minds at rest
Or does even that not appease the doubters?
How clean is the Tour de France?
7/8/2009
JOHN LEICESTER
The Associated Press
"It's clear that riders have learned to dope within the passport," says Michael Ashenden, one of the nine experts the UCI uses to analyze riders' blood.
Correctly manipulating transfusions and mini-doses of EPO requires a certain amount of know-how but not a PhD.
"I could write it down on a post-it note," Ashenden says.
http://www.pennlive.com/sportsflash/ind ... ist=sports0 -
They said the same about Armstrong! Do you have any actual figures?stagehopper wrote:According to FdJ's trainer Wiggins has an exceptional VO2 max thus by your theory able to sustain a high cadence riding style.
By the way I am not saying that Wiggins must be doping, but if a rider's ability is suddenly transformed for the better they do need to be very precise and accurate when given reasons for this change as if they give reasons that don't seem to hold water, suspicions will be intensified all the more.0 -
What pictures did you look at? Any differences should be very obvious. After all 7 kg is 15.4 pounds of fat / muscle! Now perhaps Wiggins really did have a 12.6% body fat, despite looking so 'skinny'. I would think that it was more realistic to think that his body fat percentage was previously about 8%. This would mean, according to your reasoning, that he has lost 7- 8 lb of muscle from his upper body, or about half a stone! That much extra muscle on his upper body should have made him look like a pedalling Arnie Schwarzenegger!johnfinch wrote:I never actually said that Wiggins HAS lost muscle mass, I only said that it is plausible. I have just done a quick google image search for Bradley Wiggins in 2007, and Bradley Wiggins now, and although I haven't exactly got a trained eye for this sort of thing, he does look like he isn't as muscular as he was back then.0 -
aurelio wrote:
What pictures did you look at? Any differences should be very obvious. After all 7 kg is 15.4 pounds of fat / muscle! Now perhaps Wiggins really did have a 12.6% body fat, despite looking so 'skinny'. I would think that it was more realistic to think that his body fat percentage was previously about 8%. This would mean, according to your reasoning, that he has lost 7- 8 lb of muscle from his upper body, or about half a stone! That much extra muscle on his upper body should have made him look like a pedalling Arnie Schwarzenegger!johnfinch wrote:I never actually said that Wiggins HAS lost muscle mass, I only said that it is plausible. I have just done a quick google image search for Bradley Wiggins in 2007, and Bradley Wiggins now, and although I haven't exactly got a trained eye for this sort of thing, he does look like he isn't as muscular as he was back then.
Half a stone off a 190cm body? Again, you'll have to take my word for this, I'm as tall as Wiggins, and half a stone here or there does not make the difference between Arnie and an antelope.
Just type Bradley Wiggins 2007 into Google images and then do Bradley Wiggins 2009. It may just be my perception, but he does seem to have lost a fair amount of bulk since then.
Just as a quick one, here's the man in 2007
http://wa2.images.onesite.com/blogs.tel ... iggins.jpg
And 2009 from the Giro:
http://www.velonews.com/files/images/WIGGINS2.jpg
Like I say, I'm not really qualified to verify Wiggins' claims, as he wouldn't let me near him with my measuring instruments. I'm just going off what I can see. Maybe we need a third opinion.0 -
aurelio wrote:
It might be argued that Armstrong could only adopt his high-cadence style because he was boosting the amount of available oxygen with Epo/ blood doping. This is especially so given that Armstrong's unexceptional VO2 max ( 81.2 mL/kg/min according to Ed Coyle, measured just after Armstrong won the world RR Championships) did not give him enough oxygen to produce the sort of power outputs he did on the climbs, never mind do so whilst also paying the cost of sustaining a mechanically less efficient higher cadence.
Back in 2006 Basso was another devotee of the 'high cadence' school of climbing, and we know what he was up to to allow him to adopt such a style. The new 'clean' Basso no longer seems to be able to ride in such
And presumably Charly Gaul the pioneer of high cadence climbing and possibly the best climber of all was an early pioneer of epo ?
I disagree that Basso no longer climbs with the same cadence - he may not be climbing so successfully with it but the style is pretty similar to what it was.
Fwiw I think Wiggins' high cadence is to be expected given his track background - I wouldn't use it as an explanation for his success but I think it's unfair to imply that high cadence climbing is linked to doping - we've seen plenty of dirty riders pushing big gears after all.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
+1 re antelopes. I am approx the same size as Wiggins (not exactly but fairly close), and I am about 15% body fat, yet I look similar to Brad in 'track mode' a la Beijing. So I think its perfectly reasonable to think he may have been 12% body fat...
Also I bet like most riders he will have gained a little weight over the Winter, and some of these figures of previous weight and weight loss may have been based on his weight then, rather than a year ago at the heaight of the road season. His weight loss *year on year* may not have been as much as the 7kg or so being talked about, even if he has lost 7kg since the off season and lots of post-Beijing celebration?
I'm sure I read something from him recently saying that previously he didn't really need to do anything much at all about his weight because of his track focus, but this year has been very different.0 -
And just to add to that - there were threads on here talking about how much weight Wiggins had lost well before he showed how much better he was climbing - I'm thinking about the pictures taken after Paris Roubaix. It can't be fans looking to explain away his success without thinking of doping because the discussions about his weight predate his breakthrough in the grand tours.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
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johnfinch wrote:aurelio wrote:Are there any recent anti-doping quotations from Wiggins that you can refer us to?
You've got me on that one, but then again maybe the sport is cleaning up in general and cyclists like Wiggins don't feel the same need. Also I've not really read the cycling press very much over the last 7 months or so. I've only bought about two magzines since January.
Last one that I read was in his autobiography when he referred to dopers as pondlife and, if my memory serves me well, called for lifetime bans. Is that recent enough?
I'll offer this recent statement: http://twitter.com/BradWiggins0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:And just to add to that - there were threads on here talking about how much weight Wiggins had lost well before he showed how much better he was climbing - I'm thinking about the pictures taken after Paris Roubaix. It can't be fans looking to explain away his success without thinking of doping because the discussions about his weight predate his breakthrough in the grand tours.
+1
There was a thread at the time that pointed to the blog post where it showed him on podium as a reference.
This whole subject is pretty sad to be honest that a rider has to prove their cleanliness to keyboard warriors even in the face of a lifetime stance of anti doping.
EDIT: image was simular to this: http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/images/new ... 500-70.jpg0 -
Fair comment, but I was not suggesting that some sort of invariant relation exists. What I was arguing is that the view that the adoption of a higher cadence can somehow explain how a rider can produce a higher power output than their measured VO2 max suggests is possible, or as an 'explanation' of a vastly improved level of performance (as was the case with Armstrong) just doesn't hold water.Tom Butcher wrote:I think it's unfair to imply that high cadence climbing is linked to doping - we've seen plenty of dirty riders pushing big gears after all.
Yes, and he does seem to have lost a lot of weight. What surprises me is that if he was so 'fat' (relatively speaking) before, that he didn't think of losing a bit of weight earlier!Tom Butcher wrote:there were threads on here talking about how much weight Wiggins had lost well before he showed how much better he was climbing - I'm thinking about the pictures taken after Paris Roubaix.
He must be the only one to find anything to do with De Luca's bust 'unbelievable'!Paulie W wrote:'ll offer this recent statement: http://twitter.com/BradWiggins
Sad, but perfectly understandable given the legions of doping cyclists we have seen over the years. Wiggins himself has said as much!thamacdaddy wrote:This whole subject is pretty sad to be honest that a rider has to prove their cleanliness to keyboard warriors even in the face of a lifetime stance of anti doping.
Anyhow, I really, really hope that he is riding clean.0 -
Aurelio wrote:
He must be the only one to find anything to do with De Luca's bust 'unbelievable'!Paulie W wrote:'ll offer this recent statement: http://twitter.com/BradWiggins
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As someone else said, that he got caught?0 -
That implies that what is believable, is that you can still dope to the gills and get away with it!Cumulonimbus wrote:
As someone else said, that he got caught?Aurelio wrote:
He must be the only one to find anything to do with De Luca's bust 'unbelievable'!Paulie W wrote:'ll offer this recent statement: http://twitter.com/BradWiggins0
