custom built wheels

downwardslide

Had a small accident on friday and as a result I have a bent rim. Still waiting on LBS to quote to replace the rim, but am tempted to go for a whole new custom built wheel as I suspect this may not work out being much more expensive.
Question is, where should I put the majority of the spend? Cheaper hub with a more expensive rim or vice-versa? for example, tiagra hub with open pro rim, or ultegra hub with open sport rim?

cjcp

Hand builts are a good option.

A good wheel will include both a good hub and a good rim.

I think folks on here have got a variety from Mavic CXP22s or 33 (I've got the latter for the commute on Ultegra hubs and they're great. Cost me just over £200) and Mavic Open Pros.

I've used the Open Sport and wasn't too impressed. I'm only 12.5 stone and I bent the rear rim in four weeks, probably whacked it on a pot hole. It's more flexy than the Open Pro. I went through a stage of hating Mavics last year/early this and opted for Ambrosios, but I save those for sportives etc. If it's commuting, I don't thnk you can go too far with Open Pros, Ultegra or 105 hubs with 32h spokes (depending on your weight).

Aidy

cjcp wrote:

Hand builts are a good option.

A good wheel will include both a good hub and a good rim.

... but also decent spokes, and correct spoke tension.

Getting the right spoke tension is far more important to the overall strength of a wheel than the rim is.

I'd be more inclined to go with putting the emphasis on the hub; better bearings, sealing, and (if it's a rear), a more reliable freehub are things which will probably serve you better in the long run.
Addtitionally, as you've found out, you'll damage rims more readily in crashes, and eventually you'll wear through the braking surface. Hubs will survive, so it's more worthwhile having a decent set.

cjcp

Aidy wrote:

... but also decent spokes, and correct spoke tension.

Getting the right spoke tension is far more important to the overall strength of a wheel than the rim is.

Yes, you're quite right. It's one of the reasons I plump for hand builts. I should have mentioned that.

I'd be more inclined to go with putting the emphasis on the hub; better bearings, sealing, and (if it's a rear), a more reliable freehub are things which will probably serve you better in the long run.
Addtitionally, as you've found out, you'll damage rims more readily in crashes, and eventually you'll wear through the braking surface. Hubs will survive, so it's more worthwhile having a decent set.

But a cheapy rim means that you have more chance of having to rebuild the wheel if it flexes etc. I found that out to my cost with Open Sports. They were cheaper than the Pros, but ended up having to buy another set of wheels. Grrrr. Won't make that mistake again.

downwardslide

right, so what your saying is NO COMPROMISES!
Will have to see if I can stretch the budget a bit.

Clever Pun

good hubs will help you go faster

good rims will last longer

Aidy

Clever Pun wrote:

good hubs will help you go faster

good rims will last longer

I agree, but I'm not sure the emphasis is right.

Weight at the rims is far more important for rotating weight than weight at the hubs.
Decent hubs have better bearings, which last longer.

Aguila

Aidy wrote:

cjcp wrote:

Hand builts are a good option.

A good wheel will include both a good hub and a good rim.

... but also decent spokes, and correct spoke tension.

Getting the right spoke tension is far more important to the overall strength of a wheel than the rim is.

.

How do you measure spoke tension? Or know when to adjust them. I often think I should be checking my spokes but never get beyond twanging them periodically and hoping for the best!!

I'd love to be enlightened.

Aidy

Aguila wrote:

How do you measure spoke tension? Or know when to adjust them. I often think I should be checking my spokes but never get beyond twanging them periodically and hoping for the best!!

I'd love to be enlightened.

A good wheelbuilder will do it by feel.
As far as when to adjust them - when the wheel goes out of true (spokes don't detension uniformly all at once!).

Pitch is a good indicator of tension if you've got a good ear for it.
You can also get spoke tension meters, but they're not cheap, and most wheel builders wno't use them.

Jamey

The pitch of a spoke only tells you about tension relative to other spokes in the same wheel. It won't tell you the overall tension and it won't tell you anything in relation to spokes in a different wheel because pitch is affected by lots of factors.

You could have two wheels built with completely different components and the spokes in both wheels could be at exactly the same tension but they wouldn't sound the same when 'pinged'.

The only way to tell the actual amount of tension is with a tension meter and while they're not cheap they're safely inside the birthday/Christmas present range of prices (from someone close, obviously). That's how I got mine.

And as for saying most wheelbuilders won't use tension meters, well... I'm not sure where you've got that from. National office of statistics, was it?

Skilled wheelbuilders might not use them for wheel combinations they build all the time (eg Open pros on Ultegra or 105 hubs) but I bet that (a) they used a tension meter the first few times they built that combo (b) they use the tension meter for more unusual combos and (c) they use the meter in the final stages of wheelbuilding more often than people think, even for known combos.

Aidy

Jamey wrote:

And as for saying most wheelbuilders won't use tension meters, well... I'm not sure where you've got that from. National office of statistics, was it?

From working in a bike shop, and having a significant number of friends who have worked in bike shops.

Jamey

Then I doubt the wheels were built up to maximum tension.

Aidy

Whilst broadly speaking, more tension is better than less tension, maximum tension isn't necessarily a great thing.

Jamey

By maximum I don't mean the Newton below the theoretical maximum the rim can withstand because as soon as you tried to stress relieve the spokes the rim would buckle, obviously.

Assuming the eyelets hadn't pulled out first, which they probably would have.

I just mean the maximum tension you can get which still allows you to stress relieve the wheel (ie place temporary extra stress on pairs of spokes) without the trueness being affected.

And the only way to know how much tension is in a spoke (ie the actual number of Newtons or Kilogrammes of force) is with a tension meter. Pinging the spokes will tell you if they're tighter or looser than the other spokes in the same wheel (or the same) but you can't tell whether the spoke can take even more tension or not.

Even the tightness of the nipple when turning won't necessarily tell you as that depends on how well lubed it is in the eyelet, how well lubed the spoke threads are and how good a fit it is, although I'd admit that tightness of the nipple is a better indicator of tension than pinging and listening to the pitch. But it's a bit like saying an apple conducts electricity better than a banana... It might be true but neither is as good as copper wire.

I appreciate that there are probably hundreds of people building wheels without tension meters every week in the UK and I'm sure a large number of those wheels (probably the ones belonging to slim riders who don't carry much luggage) never have problems. But the fact remains that the only way to tell the tension (if you want to know) is with a tension meter. Otherwise you're just guessing and while you may have got it right you'll never know for sure.

Aguila

Jamey wrote:

By maximum I don't mean the Newton below the theoretical maximum the rim can withstand because as soon as you tried to stress relieve the spokes the rim would buckle, obviously.

Assuming the eyelets hadn't pulled out first, which they probably would have.

I just mean the maximum tension you can get which still allows you to stress relieve the wheel (ie place temporary extra stress on pairs of spokes) without the trueness being affected.

And the only way to know how much tension is in a spoke (ie the actual number of Newtons or Kilogrammes of force) is with a tension meter. Pinging the spokes will tell you if they're tighter or looser than the other spokes in the same wheel (or the same) but you can't tell whether the spoke can take even more tension or not.

Even the tightness of the nipple when turning won't necessarily tell you as that depends on how well lubed it is in the eyelet, how well lubed the spoke threads are and how good a fit it is, although I'd admit that tightness of the nipple is a better indicator of tension than pinging and listening to the pitch. But it's a bit like saying an apple conducts electricity better than a banana... It might be true but neither is as good as copper wire.

I appreciate that there are probably hundreds of people building wheels without tension meters every week in the UK and I'm sure a large number of those wheels (probably the ones belonging to slim riders who don't carry much luggage) never have problems. But the fact remains that the only way to tell the tension (if you want to know) is with a tension meter. Otherwise you're just guessing and while you may have got it right you'll never know for sure.

Interesting, assuming I bought a tension meter, where do you find the info to tell you what tension to aim for?

downwardslide

Jamey, am I right in thinking you did a bike maintenance course at a bike shop chain?

vorsprung

quote from "Professional Guide to Wheel Building" by Roger Musson, available as a download from www.wheelpro.co.uk.

Tensiometer
A tensiometer measures the spoke tension and shown in Figure 29 is my DT tensiometer. It lightly
clamps onto the spoke and measures the spoke deflection from a load applied via a calibrated
spring. The measurement is then cross referenced against conversion charts supplied by DT to
show the actual spoke tension in Newtons. Why use a tensiometer?

There is an acceptable tension range for building a reliable wheel and some builders like to
measure the tension to ensure they are within this range. In reality obtaining the correct
tension can be accomplished without one and I’ll show you how in the building section.

Some builders like to measure the tension to ensure all spokes are tensioned to the same
value. Using a tensiometer to do this is time consuming and it’s easier and much faster
(and just as accurate) to use the spoke plucking method that I’ll describe.
The rim manufacturers like to specify numeric spoke tension limits for their rims and you
need a tensiometer to check that your spokes are within their limits. I’m not sure what they
base their figures on and whether there’s any scientific basis at all but their figures are
always well below what the rim can withstand.

Some points you need to be aware of:
The best and very expensive tensiometers are only accurate to +/-10% and lower cost
tensiometers are even less accurate.
Manufacturing tolerances of the spokes mean the diameter may vary from batch to batch.

I’ve seen DT Competition spokes (diameter 1.8mm) measuring 1.75mm and if you are using
the conversion charts assuming it’s a 1.8mm it throws a significant error in the tension
measurements. For example I built a wheel and I was sure it was plenty tight enough yet
the tensiometer said it was still low. I then measured the spoke diameter with a micrometer
and the spokes were smaller than the assumed diameter – hence the discrepancy.

In all my years as a professional builder leading up to 2007 I never used a tensiometer. In 2007 I
started building on Stans ZTR rims (www.notubes.com) and they specify low tension limits for
their extra lightweight rims that they say should be adhered to. I’ve spoken to them and they seem
to be knowledgeable on the subject so I build to their specifications and had to buy a tensiometer.
Shown below is a tension reading of 1.27mm using DT Revolution spokes which equates to 1000N
– a little more than the 95Kg that Stan wants but that particular wheel has been raced hard and is
perfect.
Figure 29 DT Tensiometer

Out of curiosity I took a tensiometer to a wheel I’d built without the use of one (using the building
techniques shown later in this book). It just told me that the tension was fine and the spoke
tensions were equal. So in summary – you don’t need one but I’ve no objections if you want to try
one.

cjcp

Saw these in Classifieds:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12638043

greg66_tri_v2.0

Hold on...

<rummages around for broken record>

There we are. I always say this, so you've probably heard it before, but if you're running Campag, consider some factory Campag wheels. Fantastic hubs, and rims that take abuse day in day out and simply do not fall out of true. There are a ton of Campag wheel users out there who will say exactly the same.

Normal service will now be restored.

itboffin

Planet-X B's or C's both perfect smooth and cheap.

roger_merriman

Greg66 wrote:

Hold on...

<rummages around for broken record>

There we are. I always say this, so you've probably heard it before, but if you're running Campag, consider some factory Campag wheels. Fantastic hubs, and rims that take abuse day in day out and simply do not fall out of true. There are a ton of Campag wheel users out there who will say exactly the same.

Normal service will now be restored.

I've found the entry level fulcrums to be tough wheels as well while the milage on that bike is modest i tend to ride fairly lumpy and dirty lanes, rims are starting to get worn etc. but so far lasting well and i'm no lightweight. though from years of MTB i ride light.

cjcp

+1 for Campy wheels in fairness. I used Campy Scirocco and they didn't go out of true once. Hard as nails.

Jamey

downwardslide wrote:

Jamey, am I right in thinking you did a bike maintenance course at a bike shop chain?

Yes, Canterbury Cycles, but that didn't cover wheelbuilding, although they do offer a wheelbuilding course as well. I learnt wheelbuilding through a combination of Roger Musson's excellent e-book and Rob Barker (of these forums) kindly offering to take me through it step-by-step at his place.

Aguila wrote:

Interesting, assuming I bought a tension meter, where do you find the info to tell you what tension to aim for?

Ah, that's a very good question ..The weakest part of a wheel is the rim so you contact the rim manufacturer and ask them what the maximum tension they recommend for that particular model is. Unfortunately, however, they always tell you a number that's way too low, like Roger Musson says in his book. So to save you the bother I'll just go ahead and tell you that all the wheels I've built have been 1200 Newtons (which is 120 KgF) on the drive side after the tyre has been fitted and inflated, which tends to drop the tension down a little as it squeezes the rim depending on how high the tyre pressure is.

A caveat though... I use heavy duty rims (Mavic A719, Rigida Sputnik, Alex ACE-19) rather than lightweight road rims like an Open Pro or something.

Vorsprung - Roger Musson is right that if you follow his method you don't necessarily need a tension meter because his method involves making sure the spoke threads, nipples and eyelets are all well lubricated, which means that using spoke twist as an indicator of tension is more reliable and useful. However, even though I follow his method I still find the tension meter useful for truing as you frequently have more than one spoke you can tighten or loosen to choose from and the tension meter allows you to tighten whichever of the spokes in the region is currently loosest (or loosen whichever spoke is tightest in the out-of-true region) when the pitch is barely distinguishable.

But then again I need to have very true wheel as my brake blocks need to be particularly close to the rim due to the fact that I'm using V-brakes with STi levers and don't want to use cable pull adapters.

downwardslide

Thanks. I'm interested in doing a course, and seemed to remember you'd rated the one you went on. Am ok with the basics, but would like to be able to strip the bike and rebuild it confident in the knowledge that it won't fall to bits again when I start riding it.
Went with the a straigt replacement wheel in the end (It would have been as expensive to lace a new rim to the existing hub!). Think I will leave the custom built wheels until I can afford to replace the pair - may even do one of these courses where you build your own set.

Jamey

I'd recommend a maintenance course for the ability to strip and rebuild (or build from scratch) your own bikes but for wheelbuilding I actually think Roger Musson's book is good enough that you can just read that. You might need to read it a few times and you'll certainly need to have it open on the table next to you when you're building the first few wheels but it's every bit as good as a proper course.

Get it here:
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

Read it, see what you think and if you still want to go on a course then you've only spent £9 but on the other hand if you think you're able to just do it from the book (which I think you will) then you can use the money you would've spent on a course to buy a wheel truing jig and a dishing gauge.

And maybe even a tension meter