Thor 'The Norwhinger' Hushovd

FOAD

alex16zx wrote:

FOAD wrote:

But pull out a loser (ie. never a winner of anything remotely important) who is as nice as pie, cue "tiger" lol Tim Henman, and everyone loves him. Almost encourages people to fail!

Henman never a winner of anything remotely important? Exxcept for his Masters title, of course...beating Federer, Roddick, Davydenko, Kuerten and Grosjean on the way! Tim didn't make it to World Number one but he got to the top 4 in the world. In a solo sport that is also an incredible achievement. I agree that we do sometimes have a culture of celebrating losers who have good spirit and it does any me, but Tim isn't one of those people for me.

Ok, let's put him in perspective. Rarely able to beat any of the top 3 due to a huge gulf in ability, totally unable to pull it off on the world's biggest stage (compare Wimbledon etc. to TdF). Paula Radcliffe, another "lovely" person unable to pull it off at the big one despite winning stuff along the way. I am not saying they were rubbish, all I am saying is that they lacked Cav's mentality to win when it really mattered.

No one would disagree with me if we were talking the England Football team, ranked 4 before the last world cup, and then the usual happens.

FOAD

iainf72 wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

At the end of the day it looks like the best sprinter won't win the sprinters jersey which is sad. Thor Hushovd was clearly wrong to appeal this is obvious when you see the coverage from above. The barriers were poorly placed and even if they werent there was no way Hushovd would have came past Cav. The commisaire should have been man enough to reverse his decision. The personality thing shouldnt come into it.

If the best sprinter has bothered going for the points on the road, maybe he would've won. It's about being consistant - I remember Cav even remarked on how hard that would be.

Is it really about being consistent? Winning 4 out of 5 of the bunch sprints is pretty consistent, but then other things come into play.

Having to get over big climbs for points, that isn't about consistency, it's about getting over big climbs easily.

Then of course he is penalised for being the best sprinter, eg. he goes into a break with Hincapie looking for the intermediates, and is told by the break (containing sprinters who can't touch him) go back to the peloton or we will not ride 'cuz we can't beat you. So he has to go back or sell GH down the river.

So I think there is a lot more to it than consistency.

Stuey01

FOAD wrote:

alex16zx wrote:

FOAD wrote:

But pull out a loser (ie. never a winner of anything remotely important) who is as nice as pie, cue "tiger" lol Tim Henman, and everyone loves him. Almost encourages people to fail!

Henman never a winner of anything remotely important? Exxcept for his Masters title, of course...beating Federer, Roddick, Davydenko, Kuerten and Grosjean on the way! Tim didn't make it to World Number one but he got to the top 4 in the world. In a solo sport that is also an incredible achievement. I agree that we do sometimes have a culture of celebrating losers who have good spirit and it does any me, but Tim isn't one of those people for me.

Ok, let's put him in perspective. Rarely able to beat any of the top 3 due to a huge gulf in ability, totally unable to pull it off on the world's biggest stage (compare Wimbledon etc. to TdF). Paula Radcliffe, another "lovely" person unable to pull it off at the big one despite winning stuff along the way. I am not saying they were rubbish, all I am saying is that they lacked Cav's mentality to win when it really mattered.

And Cav is going to win the TdF is he? He's won a few sprints, it's awesome, but let's get it in perspective.
Tim Henman never won Wimbledon, but Cav will never win the TdF. Winning stages is more analagous to winning tough matches in the early rounds of something like Wimbledon, which Tim did plenty of.
Milan San Remo, like a smaller tournament, which Tim did win plenty of.

FOAD

Stuey01 wrote:

And Cav is going to win the TdF is he? He's won a few sprints, it's awesome, but let's get it in perspective.
Tim Henman never won Wimbledon, but Cav will never win the TdF. Winning stages is more analagous to winning tough matches in the early rounds of something like Wimbledon, which Tim did plenty of.
Milan San Remo, like a smaller tournament, which Tim did win plenty of.

Hardly a comparison. Cavendish is racing against the best in the world in each stage and pulling off wins, for those who take just one stage in the tour ever, it is a career moment.

For Tim to beat some unseeded player from outer Mongolia in round 1 in 5 sets and nearly throw it away isn't quite the same, surely you can see that.

And MSR, the longest Classic in its centenary year. Small race....lol

avoidingmyphd

did i really just read someone classify Paula Radcliffe as some kind of plucky loser?

FOAD

avoidingmyphd wrote:

did i really just read someone classify Paula Radcliffe as some kind of plucky loser?

I certainly suggested she lacked the mentality to win on the big stage despite being the most dominant runner, so you may take that as a yes if you want.

Anonymous

FOAD you are so wise, we all fall at your feet :roll: :roll: :roll:

aya604

FOAD wrote:

alex16zx wrote:

FOAD wrote:

But pull out a loser (ie. never a winner of anything remotely important) who is as nice as pie, cue "tiger" lol Tim Henman, and everyone loves him. Almost encourages people to fail!

Henman never a winner of anything remotely important? Exxcept for his Masters title, of course...beating Federer, Roddick, Davydenko, Kuerten and Grosjean on the way! Tim didn't make it to World Number one but he got to the top 4 in the world. In a solo sport that is also an incredible achievement. I agree that we do sometimes have a culture of celebrating losers who have good spirit and it does any me, but Tim isn't one of those people for me.

Ok, let's put him in perspective. Rarely able to beat any of the top 3 due to a huge gulf in ability, totally unable to pull it off on the world's biggest stage (compare Wimbledon etc. to TdF). Paula Radcliffe, another "lovely" person unable to pull it off at the big one despite winning stuff along the way. I am not saying they were rubbish, all I am saying is that they lacked Cav's mentality to win when it really mattered.

Sorry thats not in perspective. Henman got to 4 wimbledon semis and 4 quarters. He also got to semis at the French & US. To compare wimbledon against the tour you surely must be talking about overall classification.
Thus only Robert Millar comes close.

lloyd_bower

alex16zx wrote:

FOAD wrote:

But pull out a loser (ie. never a winner of anything remotely important) who is as nice as pie, cue "tiger" lol Tim Henman, and everyone loves him. Almost encourages people to fail!

Henman never a winner of anything remotely important? Exxcept for his Masters title, of course...beating Federer, Roddick, Davydenko, Kuerten and Grosjean on the way! Tim didn't make it to World Number one but he got to the top 4 in the world. In a solo sport that is also an incredible achievement. I agree that we do sometimes have a culture of celebrating losers who have good spirit and it does annoy me, but Tim isn't one of those people for me.

Fully agree the amount of cr*p about Henman on this forum is pathetic. He made the very best of his talents, and was no. 4 in the world for a long spell in a game that is played throughout the world.
Indeed, sure he'd didn't win Wimbledon or one of the majors, but won of the next rank down.

RedAende

Paula is far from a plucky loser, think she has been very unlucky with injuries coinciding with big events.

As for Cav, being a bit outspoken is a breath of fresh air and makes for interesting TV. So many top sports stars are trained in corporte marketing PR and waffle on without saying anything, like politicins.

He seemed more concerned with the lose of life than Thor throwing his rattle out his pram.

fast as fupp

COME ON TIM!

*does weak clenched fist*

Stuey01

there is one Wimbledon per year. There are 21 tour stages this year.
To compare apples with apples you really have to be talking about the GC.

Henman played and beat the top guys in tennis. OK he never went all the way in a major but he had plenty of matches against the best of the best.

I think Cav is great, love that he is winning all these stages but lets not go over the top about it, he is a sprinter delivered to the line by the best lead out in the game.
If he was up against the best in the world on an even footing then the other sprinters would have an equivalent lead out train, and Pettachi would be there. But they don't and he isn't.

flattythehurdler

Its not the best sprinter's jersey, its the most consistent rider. And that rider is Thor.

Contrary to opinion on here, he didn't whinge, he just backed the judge's decison. You people need to get a grip.

Anyone else see the crass ITV interview where they asked Hushovd if the jersey was devalued as he "didn't win it fair and square". I'd have punched the interviewer's lights out.[/quote]

Agreed, but we don't know whether hushovd would have won the green (though I suspect he would), that is why the decision is disappointing. It seems the majority on here, however, would rather Cav lost just because they don't like him based on 30 second interviews at the end of a stage.
Anyway whatever Sean kelly says goes as far as I'm concerned.

aberdeen_lune

flattythehurdler wrote:

Its not the best sprinter's jersey, its the most consistent rider. And that rider is Thor.

I thought the most consistent rider went for the GC classification, the green jersey was for the best sprinter and the polka dot for the best over the mountains. Stands back in amazement I had it wrong for all these years wow.

iainf72

Right. yesterdays stage

Points
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 20 pts
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 17
3 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 15
4 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 13
5 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream 12
6 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Cervelo TestTeam 10
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto 9
8 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 8
9 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 7
10 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team Columbia - HTC 6
11 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas 5
12 Tony Martin (Ger) Team Columbia - HTC 4
13 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Team Katusha 3
14 Maxime Monfort (Bel) Team Columbia - HTC 2
15 Christophe Le Mevel (Fra) Française des Jeux

These count towards the green jersey, therefore consistantly finishing in a high position determines the winner. Add in the sprint points on the road and it favours sprinters but it's not only based on sprints.

BdeB

If that is true why are there more points available on flat stages. If it really was about the most consisitant finisher then there would be equal points on every stage even TTs. But as has been said here before that is the yellow jersey. Also if it was about consistant finishing why would they have intermediate sprints? The green is the sprinters jersy and i for one think they should make it more so by making the points difference between 1st and second 10 points.

big_phil

mmmm though I was in the wrong forum....tennis...henman...

Anyway for what its worth - Cavendish did not move from his line.... the barriers "came into" the road which is quite obvious from the white lines on the road..

In fact Cav was not even sprinting.....

fast as fupp

Stuey01 wrote:

there is one Wimbledon per year. There are 21 tour stages this year.
To compare apples with apples you really have to be talking about the GC.

Henman played and beat the top guys in tennis. OK he never went all the way in a major but he had plenty of matches against the best of the best.

I think Cav is great, love that he is winning all these stages but lets not go over the top about it, he is a sprinter delivered to the line by the best lead out in the game.
If he was up against the best in the world on an even footing then the other sprinters would have an equivalent lead out train, and Pettachi would be there. But they don't and he isn't.

he won 4 stages last year when his lead out wasnt the best

iainf72

As I said it favours sprinters. But they have "sprint" points on mountain stages too. And you get points for winning a TT.

Back in the 80's there used to be a nice red jersey for sprint competition.

Stuey01

fast as fupp wrote:

Stuey01 wrote:

there is one Wimbledon per year. There are 21 tour stages this year.
To compare apples with apples you really have to be talking about the GC.

Henman played and beat the top guys in tennis. OK he never went all the way in a major but he had plenty of matches against the best of the best.

I think Cav is great, love that he is winning all these stages but lets not go over the top about it, he is a sprinter delivered to the line by the best lead out in the game.
If he was up against the best in the world on an even footing then the other sprinters would have an equivalent lead out train, and Pettachi would be there. But they don't and he isn't.

he won 4 stages last year when his lead out wasnt the best

Look, I'm not knocking Cav - I think he is great.
I'm just pointing out that winning a stage (or 4) in the TdF does not really compare to a Wimbledon victory.

aya604

Flat stages
35, 30, 26, 24, 22, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 points are awarded to the first 25 riders across the finish.

Medium-mountain stages
25, 22, 20, 18, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 points are awarded to the first 20 riders across the finish.Mountainstage.svg

High-mountain stages
20, 17, 15, 13, 12, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 points are awarded to the first 15 riders across the finish.

Time-trials
15, 12, 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 points are awarded to the top 10 finishers of the stage.

In addition, stages can have intermediate sprints in which 6, 4, and 2 points are awarded to the first three. In case of a tie, the number of stage wins determine the green jersey, then the number of intermediate sprint victories, and finally, the rider's standing in the general classification.

Seems like Cav does not pick up enough points in the intermediate sprints.

Fastlad

big_phil wrote:

mmmm though I was in the wrong forum....tennis...henman...

Anyway for what its worth - Cavendish did not move from his line.... the barriers "came into" the road which is quite obvious from the white lines on the road..

In fact Cav was not even sprinting.....

No, he wasn't sprinting, he was too pre occupied with the whereabouts of Thor so he could block him! He saw the barriers coming and he held his line, he couldn't have gave a flying f%ck if Thor crashed!!! :evil:

eh

It isn't a sprint competition though its a competition for consistent high placed finishes hence why Thor was up there.

Quite frankly as soon as Cav looked around and then moved line he was going to be in trouble, but he'll learn. Still I think reversing the places would have made more sense than the complete DQ but there we go.

avoidingmyphd

the green jersey is not being played out at intermediate sprints. the suggestion that this is where hushovd is getting all his points from is around a lot, but it's a bit misleading!

there has only been one stage where he's done this - st8 where he sneaked off and picked up 12 points in the first 2 intermediate sprints. and one stage, st12, where Cav and Hushovd competed for one intermediate sprint. Cav beat him. the rest of the intermediate sprints have been mopped up by the breakaways, or ignored by Cav and Hushovd.

So the green jersey is being played out in the bunch sprints at the end of stages - either for the stage win, or the minor places behind a breakaway. Hushovd has stayed in touch with Cav by consistently finishing close behind him at finishing sprints. And he has taken the lad in the competition because on the three occasions where he beat him at the end, Cav was further behind than Hushovd is when they're the other way round. When Cav beats Hushovd, he just beats him. When Hushovd beats Cav, he beats him by miles. The uncontroversial ones of of these were Barcelona and Colmar. In both of these stages, Hushovd capitalised on his greater strength to get more points than Cav at the stage finish. The other was the DQ which put Cav at the back of the back.

These are where Cav lost it. Not the intermediate sprints. Now, of course it's easy to say "well he should have gone for more intermediate points" but hardly any have been available because of breakaways.

knedlicky

Bikr23 wrote:

This is the best thing that could happen to Cav.

Agreed. I think it was a 70:30 decision, but Cav needs to learn, and in more than one respect.

oscarbudgie wrote:

I think we'll end up in Paris with Cav having won 5 stages to Hushovd's one yet still losing Green because of an iniquitous points system that doesn't reward winning enough

Surely Cavendish has already benefited from a system which very generously rewards flat stage victors. I’d almost argue having things the other way around might make things more interesting – a one point difference between different placings at stage finishes would tighten up the points classifications (green and polka dot) considerably, maybe making them more open.

Blonde

Cav probably isn't as mature as some of the older guys, but he's a young guy in his 20s - what does anyone expect! He's not going round crashing expensive fast cars and taking recreational drugs as many others would and do in his position (I mention no names!). TH just said what he thought at the time (i.e. immediately after the race when emotions are still running high). I don't know if I think the blocking of TH was deliberate or not. You can't tell from the footage. It looked like the barriers did have a genuine kink in them and stuck out very slightly at the point where TH got trapped but whether that is even relevent is a moot point. The judges decision is final - them's just the rules. Of course it's a bugger for Cav but sh!te happens sometimes. At track racing you can get disqualified if you don't hold your line, endangering others, or actually bring someone else down and even if you feel it wasn't your fault or that it wasn't deliberate, it's just tough luck then too. It's been a really exciting Green Jersey competition up till now.

Le Commentateur

Rest day today. What chance is there that the officials will spend a bit of time reconsidering the penalty?

robmanic1

I suppose the "blocking" situation was debatable, all the more reason for a defence hearing for Columbia, for the organisers to just fold their arms and refuse any appeal seems a little churlish.
Thor is supposed to be a big boy, he should've just strapped on a set, accepted he'd been done (he put himself in a bad position IMO) and got on with it.

fast as fupp

Stuey01 wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

Stuey01 wrote:

there is one Wimbledon per year. There are 21 tour stages this year.
To compare apples with apples you really have to be talking about the GC.

Henman played and beat the top guys in tennis. OK he never went all the way in a major but he had plenty of matches against the best of the best.

I think Cav is great, love that he is winning all these stages but lets not go over the top about it, he is a sprinter delivered to the line by the best lead out in the game.
If he was up against the best in the world on an even footing then the other sprinters would have an equivalent lead out train, and Pettachi would be there. But they don't and he isn't.

he won 4 stages last year when his lead out wasnt the best

Look, I'm not knocking Cav - I think he is great.
I'm just pointing out that winning a stage (or 4) in the TdF does not really compare to a Wimbledon victory.

no it doesnt due to the fact that tennis is totally gay

Tom Butcher

FOAD wrote:

Ok, let's put him in perspective. Rarely able to beat any of the top 3 due to a huge gulf in ability, totally unable to pull it off on the world's biggest stage (compare Wimbledon etc. to TdF). Paula Radcliffe, another "lovely" person unable to pull it off at the big one despite winning stuff along the way. I am not saying they were rubbish, all I am saying is that they lacked Cav's mentality to win when it really mattered.

.

With respect you've got it wrong on Radcliffe. She is a former world champion at the marathon and cross country as well as winning numerous major marathons. If by winning the big one you mean the Olympics she's just been unlucky with injury and illness. If Cav had 2 chances at winning a sprint in 8 years then who knows if he'd have delivered.