Is it just me or is everything ugly?

Cressers

I've noticed a trend for 'designer uglyness' spreading from cars to bikes, I wonder why? Is it a reflection on the lumpen, brutish times that we're living in that people think that they can increase their feeble sense of self-worth by driving or riding an eysore?

Cressers

It's in the eye of the beholder of course, but I see the curved tubes, where straight tubes would be a better engineering solution; oversized forks, ovailized or 'profiled' tubes when a circular tube would be the optimum solution as ugly on road bikes; and the trend has got more out of hand on mountain bikes where designs that look as if they've been left out in the sun too long are fashionable. I feel queasy looking at some of them!

As for cars, it seems that they all are pug-nosed, cyber-creased, slitty-headlighted, high-haunched examples of designers who've suffered a migrane. Even from the rear they have arses like the croc-wearing sink estate women you see slouching in the discount supermarkets.

it's proabably marketing zietgiest, but as far as I'm concerned they can keep it!

finchy

Cressers wrote:

It's in the eye of the beholder of course, but I see the curved tubes, where straight tubes would be a better engineering solution; oversized forks, ovailized or 'profiled' tubes when a circular tube would be the optimum solution as ugly on road bikes; and the trend has got more out of hand on mountain bikes where designs that look as if they've been left out in the sun too long are fashionable. I feel queasy looking at some of them!

As for cars, it seems that they all are pug-nosed, cyber-creased, slitty-headlighted, high-haunched examples of designers who've suffered a migrane. Even from the rear they have arses like the croc-wearing sink estate women you see slouching in the discount supermarkets.

it's proabably marketing zietgiest, but as far as I'm concerned they can keep it!

Are you by any chance Prince Charles?

Cressers

No, Just someone who's noticed over time how the world has become coarsend.

Anonymous

Surf-Matt

Chip \'oyler

So cressers - could you give some examples of aesthetics you agree with?

Examples of cars, bikes, architecture etc

As a designer I'm interested by your comments

TarmacExpert

Cressers wrote:

It's in the eye of the beholder of course, but I see the curved tubes, where straight tubes would be a better engineering solution; oversized forks, ovailized or 'profiled' tubes when a circular tube would be the optimum solution as ugly on road bikes

Surely it is beyond dispute that circular tubing is less aerodynamic? Personally I think modern bikes look much better than boring old circular tubed bikes. One reason why I bought my Tarmac was because I thought it looked fantastic, and I still think it looks fantastic several years later.

BigG67

It is a good debate - the referential aesthetic vs the boundary pushing....

A lot of people think they like "elegant and traditional" references but when many of the true icons of design (especially buildings) were created they were cutting edge.

If you believe in the power of the free market then the tastes of the masses will be addressed.

It's also worth considering what was seen a beauty, including human beauty, has moved. Size, shape, colour (fair skin v tan, not race) have all shifted over time and there was no active design changes there.

blu3cat

Are the curved & profiled tubes used because they offer function, and in a higher end machine, where you start to see these innovations, function should always win out over form.


I personally don't like the curved top tube look look, but that's just my opinion.

It's when you start seeing these functional changes put on as aesthetic items on BSOs, then, that's wrong. (a la ironing board aerofoil on a 1.1 corsa)

MrChuck

blu3cat wrote:

Are the curved & profiled tubes used because they offer function, and in a higher end machine, where you start to see these innovations, function should always win out over form.)

Mix of both I expect- I'm sure a circular, straight tube isn't always the optimal solution so curvy bits have their place, but at the same time designers want to make their stuff stand out so some/a lot of it is probably just for the looks.

ride_whenever

3 of my bikes are steel, so round tubes and tidy welds. Beautiful!

My silly little bike is very hydroformed, but it does give it a LOT of stiffness, which works for the intended use.

Infamous

We had 100 years of straight tubes and boring shapes, carbon frames look much nicer, generally.

beverick

No it's just you......

blu3cat

Infamous wrote:

We had 100 years of straight tubes and boring shapes, carbon frames look much nicer, generally.

erm, not necessarily.

Chap at work here parks a beautiful Ernie Clements FG/SS bike up in deep sunshine yellow, with chromed forks. All steel, and quite frankly, it's understated simplicity makes my carbon look, well a little brash in comparison.

balthazar

I've noticed that many new coveted objects – particularly cars – appear to have been styled with aggression central on the mood board. I can't help but see that trend as a characteristic of destabilised times. People get aggressive when they are scared, and in this decade, many more western people have been scared and confused than in previous recent times.

Also the previous decade of financial boom, instilled a sharpened appetite for new and better, upgrading and aspiring. Perhaps the after effects take time to ebb away.

Apart from which, cycling has moved from being a working class sport to a middle class one, perhaps encouraged by it's popularity growth in the US. Once, a keen club cyclist saved for years to buy a "best" bike which he kept for twenty years. Manufacturers must now cater for the feeding frenzy of rabid professionals who need new and better each year. When there's nowhere else to go, you fetishise ugly. Eg, Pinarello.

Icm76

Cressers wrote:

I've noticed a trend for 'designer uglyness' ... ...riding an eysore?

Cressers wrote:

No, Just someone who's noticed over time how the world has become coarsend.

Onset of grumpy old man syndrome? I don't think there are any more or less stylistic triumphs and disasters today than there have been historically.

When I look at modern bicycle design I see diversity and overall quality that if anything is boring, because nothing stands head and shoulders above its' peers. There is plenty of traditional, retro and plain tube design and geometry amongst the contemporary, curvy carbon. Add the choice of paint schemes and graphics and I see a very broad range of boring, brash and completely OTT styles. Be glad there is so much choice, if anything the eyesores you don't like should make the bikes you do like seem classier and more appealing.

Cressers wrote:

I see the curved tubes, where straight tubes would be a better engineering solution; oversized forks, ovailized or 'profiled' tubes when a circular tube would be the optimum

Are you a bicycle engineer or materials engineer? 'Common sense' is frequently wrong and the scientific, empirical or mathematical solution is not what the layperson would expect. I doubt there are any manufacturers willing to compromise their high performance bikes for looks, if the same styles appear on cheaper bikes it may be unnecessary but it's perfectly normal - the kids will always aspire to ride the same bikes as the pros, and have to make do with something that just looks the same. It shouldn't stop your enjoyment of cycling of bikes styled purely to follow the appropriate function.

Tom Butcher

I tend to agree with Cressers and Balthazar. To my eye many modern bikes are styled in a rather ugly, aggressive, in your face kind of way. The Specialized Tarmac would be one example and some of those Pinarellos the same. I quite like my Look 585 though! In terms of cars I saw one of those big Porsche 4*4s this morning and it's size and styling do shout I'm considerably richer than you. - but even family saloons have moved in that direction - though possibly because of the need to accommodate air bags and crash protection etc. Go down town on a Friday night and I think most people would say a lot of blokes are style themselves to look fairly aggressive too - certainly compared to say 30 years ago.

blu3cat

I do wonder how much of the talk about aggressive styling etc are because we see the past through slighty rose tinted specs.

Modern Design is tomorrow's classics.

On Weekends in times gone past, were the Mods / Rockers etc not aggressive looking?

Cressers

Well compare and contrast the Morris Minor, the VW beetle/campervan, and the Mini, and some of the recent offerings from SEAT, BMW, and AUDI, that spring to mind. Ther are no doubt many others but most cars look the same to me. While the Morris is seen as freindly and unthreatening, that can't be said of the modern designs.

No I'm not a cycle designer, and can't cite examples of 'classic;' designs that I like, perhaps because if a design does what its designed for well, and unobtrousively, it ceases to be a 'design'!

As others have mentioned, there is an increasing trend to 'agression' in design. As we now realise that the social housing of the 1960's was partly to blame for the problems of today, will we in the future accept that bullish, 'assertive' cars promoted 'road rage'; a phenomenon that died as oil passed $300 per barrel...

Chip \'oyler

Cressers - your answer is full of flaws. Of course you're entitled to your opinion.

It would take me ages to write a full answer as to why - but as I'm a designer, have studied Design history and take a very keen interest in the subject, then I'm better placed to say that you're talking rubbish.

Icm76

Cressers wrote:

As others have mentioned, there is an increasing trend to 'agression' in design. As we now realise that the social housing of the 1960's was partly to blame for the problems of today, will we in the future accept that bullish, 'assertive' cars promoted 'road rage'; a phenomenon that died as oil passed $300 per barrel...

Interesting idea, maybe it's as much to do with the car interior. Perhaps road ragers should be forced to drive cars with pastel pink interiors (like the prison cells of violent offenders) and calming green exteriors! Though I'm sure the route cause of the problem is more to do with the frustration of driving in today's awful traffic.

mfin

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Cressers - your answer is full of flaws. Of course you're entitled to your opinion.

It would take me ages to write a full answer as to why - but as I'm a designer, have studied Design history and take a very keen interest in the subject, then I'm better placed to say that you're talking rubbish.

I don't think being a designer actually means a more educated opinion in this case, the guy's only talking about how he perceives some particular bike designs isn't he?

Plus, its 'designers' that have 'designed' all of these poor shapes in the first place! ...so a designer's opinion means no more than anyone elses as far as I can see unless you believe by some (perhaps blinkered) default it is more 'considered' (oh, and by the way I'm a designer of 20 years experience myself albeit graphic based). We all have eyes and can decide what we like.

I agree with the orginal thread post somewhat. There's a lot of designs that don't 'flow to the eye' out there at the moment, and a lot of the time produced by big manufacturers with huge r&d and marketing capabilities. For example some curves in tubes look right and some just seem to look wrong (some Pinarello's or Bianchis with downtubes that look like they're sagging fall into this category for me).

Its not even a case of form following function often, more an attempt to get a shape that looks distinctive in the market place, but we all look at things differently so what will turn some people on will turn others off.

I think the references to cars some people are making is a great way to compare. My example would be that modern designs often prove to date very quickly whereas a great design of the same time will not if the proportions and lines within it are right. I'd point to a Mk1 VW Golf versus a Ford Sierra that were out at the same time pretty much. One of those still looks good but one of those looks pretty laughable.

Surf-Matt

Struggling to find any of these ugly...

balthazar

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Cressers - your answer is full of flaws. Of course you're entitled to your opinion.

It would take me ages to write a full answer as to why - but as I'm a designer, have studied Design history and take a very keen interest in the subject, then I'm better placed to say that you're talking rubbish.

You needn't take ages. A rubbishing of somebody's position needs some support, however. Just be direct and concise.

I work in art and design as well, which is why I found this thread interesting. I'd like to hear your perspective.

Chip \'oyler

balthazar wrote:

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Cressers - your answer is full of flaws. Of course you're entitled to your opinion.

It would take me ages to write a full answer as to why - but as I'm a designer, have studied Design history and take a very keen interest in the subject, then I'm better placed to say that you're talking rubbish.

You needn't take ages. A rubbishing of somebody's position needs some support, however. Just be direct and concise.

I work in art and design as well, which is why I found this thread interesting. I'd like to hear your perspective.

Do you know what - I can't be bothered. I watched a sketch on Mitchell & Webb last night and I'm slowly turning into the guy in the sketch. So from now on I'm not going to get angry or reply to anyone's 'ranting' postings.

Comedy has such a great way of telling the truth.

rogerthecat

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