Shouting at RLJers

rhext

Shoulder of Lamb wrote:

Try to hold the rage down, I really don't think it helps. But I do agree with your sentiments.

However, the whole RLJ annoys me as when I talk to non-cyclists that's all they seem to harp on about.

For example, I was at my doctor's the other day and he asked me about how much exercise I was getting, so I told him I cycle commute. He then said:

"So, do you stop at the lights?"
"I stop when the light is red"
"And at pedestrian crossings"
"Yes"

What annoys me about this is its as if cyclists RLJing is the worst crime on the road. I mean, cars, lorries and buses jump red lights all the time. Drivers are on their mobiles. Drivers speed and think that it is their right to break the speed limit. I had a berk in a merc today pull out to the rightwithout indicating as I was safely (until that point) filtering to the right of the traffic.

Cyclists are most likely to hurt themselves when they RLJ. When drivers speed, use their mobile or neglect to indicate they are likely to hurt other road users (as well as themselves).

Ha! Next time, remember to ask him if he ever breaks the speed limit!

The thing I love about this perennial is the attempts at rationalisation. "I RLJ, but I'm experienced and do it carefully, unlike the other numpty lawbreakers". Sounds just like the "I'm an experienced and careful driver, well capable of judging what is a safe speed, so speed cameras are nothing more than an unfair tax as they can't distinguish me from all the other numpty lawbreakers." argument.

So, do I obey the red lights or don't I? 99% of the time I obey the law (...I mean, if you come to a completely gridlocked junction, are you really going to hang around waiting for the lights to change? Even when nobody else can move regardless of the colour of the lights?) . I never, on the other hand, get upset that there appear to be some cyclists who break it more often than me. Neither will I complain if there happens to be a copper around who decides it's worth ticketing me on the very rare occasions when I do it. There are so many other things to worry about on the roads. Like the drivers who consider themselves well capable of judging what is a safe speed.....[/i]

alfablue

Wallace1492 wrote:

In what way? Motorised vehicles will be stopped by cops for jumping red lights. Cyclists will not, neither will peds that cross on the red man. It is very subjective. There are penalties for vehicle drivers are there not? Not so for cyclists or peds, hence no talking bollox here.

I have never, ever accused a poster of writing bollox before, but in this case it is unarguable

Wallace1492

Rolf F wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

Not at all, you are in a vehicle, a cyclist is a glorified pedestrian. Rules of road apply to motorised vehicles, and are open to intepretation by others, RLJing on a bike is like jaywalking, i.e. acceptable when done safely and considerately.

Quite simply you have no choice in a car, you do on a bike. Hence the debate.

Oh dear :roll:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_069837 - note rule 69.
You can try to justify RLJ as much as you like but trying to re-invent the highway code to suit your personal tastes is a bit of a hopeless task.

The worst I do is cross pedestrian crossings as the light is changing (for the traffic - light still firmly red for the pedestrians) and I try not to do that either. I do that on occasion in the car as, seemingly, do most drivers so I'm not being inconsistent.

I see the rules, but they are not laws are they, I don't think they are. I certainly do not see cyclists being pulled up for RLJ, have never seen it.

I am not saying it is right or wrong, as I am no hypocrite, I admit i do it, but only when i deem it safe to do so. When i started commuting I did not do it at all, but have got braver and more, perhaps, reckless.

I do like too see all the comments on the pro's and con's. Seems to be firmly on the "Do not do it" side for now. Perhaps it should be outlawed, maybe the problem is only in London - I am in Glasgow and there is no issue here.

Roastie

Wallace1492 wrote:

This debate should be about poor cycling manners and awareness not simply RLJ, which is a manifestatiion, be it the most obvious one, of selfishness, inconsideration and arrogance.

Nail, head.

I think RLJing winds me so much because it is the most obvious expression of not giving a sh1t about anyone except oneself.

I agree with the views that we've had enough RLJ debates - from eitehr side of the fence we'll probably not change each other's minds. But I do think it is worth talking about the way that the "above the law" behaviour of some cyclists (and not just RLJing) doesn't do our cause any good. Urg. I'm rambling.

bracketed

Wallace1492 wrote:

...neither will peds that cross on the red man. It is very subjective.

Can we please put to bed the whole jaywalking peds thing?

Peds can use and cross the road wherever and whenever they like in the UK - there is no such thing as jaywalking. Even against a red man.

I remember reading somewhere, and I will try to dig out the link, that when light-controlled ped crossings were being developed, one of the reasons that we ended up with a red man as opposed to an instruction DO NOT CROSS for example, is that you cannot instruct a ped not to cross the road if he/she wants to. The red man is a suggestion, albeit intended to be quite a strong one.

You can instruct a cyclist riding on the road to stop at a red light though. So we aren't really peds on round legs - we are vehicles.

owenlars

Spot on Roastie!

Soul Boy

Whats the point???? We all know we should stop at read (other that Wallace that is). if somebody RLJ's, they know they're doing wrong, and the best response you'll get is a mouthful of abuse.

Really if you can't be bothered to abide by the Highway code, get back on the bus and let the driver take that responsibility for you, you have no place on the road.

I seemed to be one of a handful that stopped at lights this morning, really the situation in London has gone to hell of late.

Roastie

Rich158 wrote:

A bunch of wankers the lot of them

This is the funny thing. Most of these people are probably perfectly nice in other circumstances (much like our friends who travel in 1.5 ton metal boxes), just fo rsome reason this whole big city mentality takes over and they act like twerps, perhaps on the assumption that they'll never meet those who they've just p'ed off again?

Wallace1492

Roastie wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

This debate should be about poor cycling manners and awareness not simply RLJ, which is a manifestatiion, be it the most obvious one, of selfishness, inconsideration and arrogance.

Nail, head.

I think RLJing winds me so much because it is the most obvious expression of not giving a sh1t about anyone except oneself.

I agree with the views that we've had enough RLJ debates - from eitehr side of the fence we'll probably not change each other's minds. But I do think it is worth talking about the way that the "above the law" behaviour of some cyclists (and not just RLJing) doesn't do our cause any good. Urg. I'm rambling.

Thanks Roastie, thought no-one would notice this!!
Find the whole debate interesting as I am a newbie here, so not seen previous threads.

There are too many inconsiderate cyclists, but thankfully not that many up here, but the few that are get on my goat.

Maybe I am talking bollox, maybe not, but I do have quite an open opinion, and hopefully anm free to express it here, on the matter, and am just saying what I see here in Glasgow.

jonginge

Wallace1492 wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

Not at all, you are in a vehicle, a cyclist is a glorified pedestrian. Rules of road apply to motorised vehicles, and are open to intepretation by others, RLJing on a bike is like jaywalking, i.e. acceptable when done safely and considerately.

Quite simply you have no choice in a car, you do on a bike. Hence the debate.

Oh dear :roll:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_069837 - note rule 69.
You can try to justify RLJ as much as you like but trying to re-invent the highway code to suit your personal tastes is a bit of a hopeless task.

The worst I do is cross pedestrian crossings as the light is changing (for the traffic - light still firmly red for the pedestrians) and I try not to do that either. I do that on occasion in the car as, seemingly, do most drivers so I'm not being inconsistent.

I see the rules, but they are not laws are they, I don't think they are. I certainly do not see cyclists being pulled up for RLJ, have never seen it.

I am not saying it is right or wrong, as I am no hypocrite, I admit i do it, but only when i deem it safe to do so. When i started commuting I did not do it at all, but have got braver and more, perhaps, reckless.

I do like too see all the comments on the pro's and con's. Seems to be firmly on the "Do not do it" side for now. Perhaps it should be outlawed, maybe the problem is only in London - I am in Glasgow and there is no issue here.

The rules with the MUST disignation are in fact laws within the road traffic act. If you'd made more than a cursory glance at the highway code you'd know that. They even put the relevant section of the act in brackets:

69

You MUST obey all traffic signs and traffic light signals.

[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD reg 10(1)]

biondino

Wallace1492 wrote:

Agree to a point. I stop at most reds, but there are a few that are a lot safer with a head start on the traffic.

How come I have never felt this way?

Wallace1492 wrote:

Done properly and safely, RLJ does not inconvenience anyone, and in fact can help in the safetly of the cyclist.

Done properly and safely, handgun ownership is completely not-dangerous! Nuclear power, done properly and safety, is a wonderful miracle! Self-tattooing, done properly and... sigh, what's the point.

Shoulder of Lamb wrote:

cars, lorries and buses jump red lights all the time

No they don't!

I tell you what - if any c*** hits me because he's attempting to RLJ I will very much hit him back.

Roastie

Wallace1492 wrote:

Thanks Roastie, thought no-one would notice this!!

I think there are too many on this thread either discussing going off topic debaing the rights and wrongs of RLJ, or complaining that the off-topic topic is boring. :roll: :P

Roastie

Il Principe wrote:

It seems to be getting worse atm, I'm becoming less and less "zen" about it all.

Ditto. I'm even Zen about cars nearly taking me out, but this just drives me batty.

Wallace1492

Soul Boy wrote:

Whats the point???? We all know we should stop at read (other that Wallace that is). if somebody RLJ's, they know they're doing wrong, and the best response you'll get is a mouthful of abuse.

Really if you can't be bothered to abide by the Highway code, get back on the bus and let the driver take that responsibility for you, you have no place on the road.

I seemed to be one of a handful that stopped at lights this morning, really the situation in London has gone to hell of late.

Hey!! I know I should stop at red, and I often do. Just had my devil horns on for a wee while to spark up the debate. Didn't realise I was stirring a hornets nest, and didnt reasise that London was so bad for it, move up here - its great!! On second thoughts, don't, I like my commute as it is.

I will still jump a few, but think we should shout at inconsiderate or dangerous cycling, be it at a red light, junction, pavement, ped xing, park, cycleway, canal etc.

DonDaddyD

There is one crossing that to this day I cannot fathom how not to RLJ as the road layout demands it. By Wimbledon South the first lights after the junction heading to Colliers Wood.

OK my road in two lanes and then after the junction merges into one. On the other side the opposit happens the road merges into two. Where the crossing is the pavement buldges out and there is no ASL. Waiting behind a car isn't really an option whenyou've got vehicles all fighting for position as they merge and hazards of the right. This leaves little room for me and the car next to me, which will move off with me once the lights go green.

I've been in this position both in a car and and on a bike and in both instances the situation is hairy. Even when sitting in a car I've wished the cyclist would RLJ and get out of my way because the road ahead is pretty tight as well.

The only place I pass the crossing but not the junction is at Brixton mega junction by the townhall heading onto Coldharbour Lane. I pass the crossing but not the junction to give me space to move off as the 5 second light means three lanes of traffic will floor the gas the minute their light goes green. Many cyclists have been doing this for years - I might add even before they changed the junction layout - so you can't drive straight across from Cold Harbour Lane - more than 10yrs ago.

In both instances I've never been shouted out by RLJers or have shouted at them.

Today I broke the speed limit.

shoulder_of_orion

biondino wrote:

Shoulder of Lamb wrote:

cars, lorries and buses jump red lights all the time

No they don't!

Yes they do.

Probably 2-3 times a week I will go through an amber light changing to red and a car, lorry or bus will follow me through a full red. It happened this morning.

One time, in the distant past, before I had learned the error of my ways, I went straight through a red light at the Southernly approach to London Bridge, all the peds had already started crossing, so I moved into the middle of the lane without looking, wrongly assuming that no vehicle would be following me and it would therefore be safe to move to the middle of the lane and pass through the middle of the junction where the peds had not reached yet.

I was hit, from behind, by a double-decker bus, going straight through a red light.

Aidy

Yes they do.

Probably 2-3 times a week I will go through an amber light changing to red and a car, lorry or bus will follow me through a full red. It happened this morning.

Have to say, I see this on almost a daily basis.
But then, I can't say I've never followed a car/van/bus through a light that's just changed red either.

DonDaddyD

Shoulder of Lamb wrote:

biondino wrote:

Shoulder of Lamb wrote:

cars, lorries and buses jump red lights all the time

No they don't!

Yes they do.

+1!

mapleflot

Roastie wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

This debate should be about poor cycling manners and awareness not simply RLJ, which is a manifestatiion, be it the most obvious one, of selfishness, inconsideration and arrogance.

Nail, head.

I think RLJing winds me so much because it is the most obvious expression of not giving a sh1t about anyone except oneself.

I agree with the views that we've had enough RLJ debates - from either side of the fence we'll probably not change each other's minds. But I do think it is worth talking about the way that the "above the law" behaviour of some cyclists (and not just RLJing) doesn't do our cause any good. Urg. I'm rambling.

+1
My main fear is that if the RLJ trend continues (increases) it will become a logical argument that cyclists are not regular traffic and then that `cycle lane use, as opposed to cycles in ''car'' lanes, should be mandatory for cyclists WHEREVER SUCH LANES [sic] EXIST'. (cue councils painting 6 inch wide lanes in gutters ending at trees and bollards with give way triangles ...to ants and beetles?.. every 5 feet.)
Signalled junctions? `CYCLISTS DISMOUNT' signs. `Glorified pedestrians' after all.

It will become a vicious circle of dog eat dog = separate whenever possible i.e. cyclists in the physical and legal gutter.
Things may seem bad now but they could get a lot worse. Put the CTC against the AA, the RAC, and Jeremy `Mr Common Sense' Clarkson, and see who wins in the lobbying department.

moonio

I'm totally fed up with having close shaves with RLJ's crossing junctions in front of me, but limit my responce to singing 'He's a red light jumper' in the style of the Beatles song 'Paperback writer'
If anyone wants to join me here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwap79uy1G8

Paulie W

moonio wrote:

I'm totally fed up with having close shaves with RLJ's crossing junctions in front of me, but limit my responce to singing 'He's a red light jumper' in the style of the Beatles song 'Paperback writer'
If anyone wants to join me here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwap79uy1G8

I was kind of disappointed that this was a video of the Beatles and not one of you singing 'your version'!

Roastie

moonio wrote:

I'm totally fed up with having close shaves with RLJ's crossing junctions in front of me, but limit my responce to singing 'He's a red light jumper' in the style of the Beatles song 'Paperback writer'
If anyone wants to join me here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwap79uy1G8

I'll try to think of that next time to restore my zen.

Agent57

Wallace1492 wrote:

Agent57 wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

RLJ when safe to do so is fine

I assume you think it is also fine if I do it in my car or on my motorcycle as well then. After all, my car or motorbike will get across the junction and out of the way faster than a cyclist anyway.

Not at all, you are in a vehicle, a cyclist is a glorified pedestrian. Rules of road apply to motorised vehicles, and are open to intepretation by others, RLJing on a bike is like jaywalking, i.e. acceptable when done safely and considerately.

Quite simply you have no choice in a car, you do on a bike. Hence the debate.

Absolute poppycock. You're a road-user, thus bound by all the rules and regulations which apply to road-users. To highlight a section from the Highway Code, specifically directed at cyclists:

Highway Code Rules for cyclists (59-82) wrote:

69

You MUST obey all traffic signs and traffic light signals.

[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD reg 10(1)]

71

You MUST NOT cross the stop line when the traffic lights are red. Some junctions have an advanced stop line to enable you to wait and position yourself ahead of other traffic (see Rule 178).

[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 36(1)]

It's not acceptable, and it's against the law.

Uncle Bernie Love

I find that catching and overtaking RLJ-ers is far more theraputic than shouting at them.

I've got to say though, on my commutes around London, the cyclist that observes red lights appears to be in the minority and I am concerned that we will get legislated off the road "for our own safety"

mapleflot

Have actually thought of getting one of these stickers for the commuter rear fender if only in the hope that the RLJ-drafter behind me will read it and expect -me- to stop at a red light:

http://www.stopatred.org/pledge.php

alex16zx

If more than 1 cyclist came up to a junction near me I'd be shocked!

rolf_f

Agent57 wrote:

Highway Code Rules for cyclists (59-82) wrote:

69

You MUST obey all traffic signs and traffic light signals.

[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD reg 10(1)]

71

You MUST NOT cross the stop line when the traffic lights are red. Some junctions have an advanced stop line to enable you to wait and position yourself ahead of other traffic (see Rule 178).

[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 36(1)]

It's not acceptable, and it's against the law.

Concentrate man! We've already posted rule 69 to death on this thread!

BTW isn't it a Bike Forum rule that all threads eventually degenerate into RLJ

Roastie

mapleflot wrote:

Have actually thought of getting one of these stickers for the commuter rear fender if only in the hope that the RLJ-drafter behind me will read it and expect -me- to stop at a red light:

http://www.stopatred.org/pledge.php

Funny you mention that. This morning I decided I was getting one for my bike, pronto.

Yeah, makes me think: Like so many other forms of negative behaviour (and I really don't give a toss to argue the right and wrong of it all), the message needs to made clear that this is not acceptable behaviour.

Roastie

Ah, just remembered:

Yesterday as I was stopped at the light on Albert Bridge Rd (at Sun Gate), a stupid RLJer wobbles past a police car through the junction. Blue lights on. I shout "Get him!" (I've been feeling very shouty lately), dude on the motorbike next to me laughs. 1xRLJer has a date with Plod. Made me feel all warm inside.

rinko

Saw my first red light jumper yesterday evening on the ride home. I had been moving with the traffic up a hill to a light controlled ped crossing (as it's very tight due to a central devider).

Woman rides off pavement on the opposite side of the road and filters down the middle of a narrow section of road and straight through the lights, then nearly collects a ped who was crossing a little further down as he expected the traffic to have stopped.

I just blurted "idiot", almost without thinking, at her. Not that it was massively dangerous (apart from for the near miss ped), but it really grated with me for some reason. Passed her a few hundred yards up the road with a shake of the head.

Conversely, I was forced to RLJ this morning due to some roadworks. No traffic around and no amount of weaving and arm waving would result in a green light for me, so after about a minute of doing my best YMCA on a bike impression I cautiously rode through. On looking back, that light was on red too and I guess I would have had to wait a good few minutes more before a car had appeared (or I could have unclipped and walked the bike along the pavement I suppose).

:roll: