Points on Licence

ellieb

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/sou ... 148763.stm

Any of our resident legal eagles like to comment?

Anonymous

It is something you can get points for in England, don't know about Scottish Law.

It is a dangerous thing to do for him and others but it seems harsh!

simple_salmon

How does that tally with this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds ... 146444.stm

Also, what has it got to do with your driving licence? He wasn't in his car; what would they have done if he didn't have a driving licence?

Seems like a pretty inconsistent response to me.

Cressers

He should appeal!

Anonymous

Just because you can get points doesn't mean you will get them. I would personally take the second course of action unless the riding was so bad and there wasn't any remorse.

It is down to an officer's discretion as to how to deal with the matter!

I agree ss, it does seem strange wrt your licence. If you don't have a licence you would have to be summonsed to court. You can still get points though at court even without a licence!

Aaah, British Law.

SBezza

Your license is for a MOTOR vehicle though, and as such if the person has committed an offence then they should get a fine, but not points, as the offence was not in a motor vehicle.

Will look at the DVLA website, that gives the codes of each driving offence, and see if one tallies up with what the guy has done on a push bike.

I certainly would talk to a legal expert to see if it could be quashed.

Edit: looking at the DVLA I guess he could be done under a code of MW10 - Contravention of Special Road Regulations, this is a 3 point penalty, so it depends on what code they have done him for.

Anonymous

Yep.

MW10.

It's not a case of being quashed, the offence has been committed and it has been dealt with in a correct manner.

However, I feel it is harsh and verbal advice and removal would be better, unless, as I said before, there were exacerbating factors.

The chap could take the matter to court and argue the case for not having points (which is what I would do). However, if still found guilty he would have to pay court costs.

ellieb

well according to this:

http://www.bikeforall.net/content/cycli ... he_law.php

There are no offences for which a cyclist can get penalty points. Confusing innit?

SBezza

NapoleonD wrote:

It's not a case of being quashed, the offence has been committed and it has been dealt with in a correct manner.

Well this is what the legal experts would try and quash, can you get points on a MOTOR vehicle licence, if the offence was indeed carried out when not in charge of a MOTOR vehicle.

You are not suppose to walk along a motorway either, would you get points on a license for this, I doubt it.

An offence has been committed of that there is no doubt, and a fine should be imposed, it is just the points that I would have an issue with personally, hence I would look into it further.

Anonymous

You may have an issue with it but in law it is correct, you can get points on your licence if you have one for an endorsable offence on your pedal cycle.

I too would have an issue with the points! But, as they say, the law is an ass.

The 'legal experts' would only be able to argue a case for no points like they could with any motoring offence, not get the conviction quashed.

SBezza

SBezza wrote:

An offence has been committed of that there is no doubt, and a fine should be imposed, it is just the points that I would have an issue with personally, hence I would look into it further.

ellieb

To clear things up...not The penalties have been dropped, but it doesn't say whether this is because of the bad PR or becasue they couldn't impose penalty points.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/sou ... 149629.stm

Barrie_G

The right result in the end then 8)

Anonymous

Thank goodness for that.

Just checked with the legalities and it is an obligatory endorsement, discretionary disqualification for the motorway offence!

Mithras

Having just read some information on Motorway offences, the following are the sentences that can be handed out.
■A fine of up to £ 2,500;
■Your licence will be endorsed;
■You may be disqualified for some of the more serious offences.

From what I understand, this means your license will be endorsed if you are caught cycling on the Motorway. If you haven't got a licensce DVLA will create a ghost license.
So if you commit an endorsable ofence, even if you don't have a licensce you still get points.

ellieb

So if you walk onto the motorway will you get an endorsement on your driving licence? :?

Anonymous

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah,

Clarified this now by delving into the annals of traffic law wisdom on the Police National Legal Database, hidden away in some dusty corner. (I'm not kidding, it's taken me ages to find it, but I kept plugging away because it was so ridiculous...)

It took some finding!

If you look at the standard wording of the offence it includes pedal cycles etc...

However if you look at it specifically for each type (which isn't linked to and doesn't come up on a search...)

Pedestrians, horse drawn carts, hand drawn carts and pedal cycles -

Non-endorsable 30 quid ticket or fine up to lvl 4 from court if it gets that bad.
Makes a hell of a lot more sense but by jove why is this stuff so hard to find???

Phew, there is some sense!

ellieb

Well done. It's nice to see informed research

Anonymous

I'm not just an ugly face!

beverick

ellieb wrote:

So if you walk onto the motorway will you get an endorsement on your driving licence? :?

This is covered by two separate pieces of legislation. If you join the motorway on foot (ie down a slip road or over the boundary fence) you are liable for a non-endorsable fixed penalty in the same way as if you were on a pedal cycle. If you joined the motorway as a driver you are 'misusing' the motorway and are liable for an endorsable penalty.

Applying the same logic, if you stopped your car on the motorway and then pedalled off on a bike you're still a driver and would get a fixed penalty.

Bob

downfader

One thing hasnt been asked - how the hell did he not realise he was entering a motorway??? We have signs up on a couple of ours at the Bursledon entrance one end directs you to the motorway, other turn offs from the RAB go to A and B roads iirc.

They tend to be pretty well sign posted, LOL! This guy appears to have fallen into the same trap that many heavy goods lorries have done when breaking small bridges, or drivers who end up in the river. Satnav is your enemy - plan your route beforehand

spen666

NapoleonD wrote:

Yep.

MW10.

It's not a case of being quashed, the offence has been committed and it has been dealt with in a correct manner.

.....

EXCEPT

it was not dealt with in the correct manner as the police issued an endorseable fixed penalty for a non endorseable offence

Anonymous

spen666 wrote:

NapoleonD wrote:

Yep.

MW10.

It's not a case of being quashed, the offence has been committed and it has been dealt with in a correct manner.

.....

EXCEPT

it was not dealt with in the correct manner as the police issued an endorseable fixed penalty for a non endorseable offence

Please see my later reply. At first look, according to law you could. Even the central ticket office said this was the case. When I delved deeper I posted what I found...

spen666

NapoleonD wrote:

You may have an issue with it but in law it is correct, you can get points on your licence if you have one for an endorsable offence on your pedal cycle.

.....

For a police officer you are very ignorant of the law.

You CAN NOT get an endorsement of your driving licence for a pedal cycle offence.


If you think otherwise, then please name the offence

Anonymous

spen666 wrote:

NapoleonD wrote:

You may have an issue with it but in law it is correct, you can get points on your licence if you have one for an endorsable offence on your pedal cycle.

.....

For a police officer you are very ignorant of the law.

You CAN NOT get an endorsement of your driving licence for a pedal cycle offence.


If you think otherwise, then please name the offence

Please read this thread in full before before calling me ignorant. You are looking quite foolish by posting replies before reading the full story.

I can only go off what the Police National Legal Database says. Plus there are some gaps in my knowledge of the law. Penalties for pedal cycling on the motorway are not really a priority in my legal knowledge.

Anonymous

Still awaiting an apology...

Mithras

Napoleon you may be waiting a while. He's a lovable rogue is Spen but the chances of him appologising in public to a Police officer are limited.
I read PNLD too and came to the same initial conclusion and understanding as you did. Glad you delved a little deeper, things can't be as busy on your patch as they are on mine!

Anonymous

No, Manchester is a sleepy hollow

spen666

NapoleonD wrote:

spen666 wrote:

NapoleonD wrote:

You may have an issue with it but in law it is correct, you can get points on your licence if you have one for an endorsable offence on your pedal cycle.

.....

For a police officer you are very ignorant of the law.

You CAN NOT get an endorsement of your driving licence for a pedal cycle offence.


If you think otherwise, then please name the offence

Please read this thread in full before before calling me ignorant. You are looking quite foolish by posting replies before reading the full story.

I can only go off what the Police National Legal Database says. Plus there are some gaps in my knowledge of the law. Penalties for pedal cycling on the motorway are not really a priority in my legal knowledge.

You stated that

in law it is correct, you can get points on your licence if you have one for an endorsable offence on your pedal cycle

That is wrong. There is no endorseable offence for cycling.

You have access to the PNLD, so do I, plus I also have access to many other legal text books, the relevant statutes and appendicies to the Road Traffic Acts and the relevant regulations. Not one of them has an endorseable offence for cycling as far as I and my colleagues, court clerks and barristers I know are aware.

If as you claim there are endorseable cycling offences, then please name just one such offence.

I will apologise to you if you can show that I am wrong.


You say I am foolish for not reading the fuill story? How do you make out I have not read the full story, which incidentially I have?

I repeat what I said, you are very ignorant of the law for a police officer. You are simply wrong on the subject of endorseable offences for cycling

spen666

Mithras wrote:

Napoleon you may be waiting a while. He's a lovable rogue is Spen but the chances of him appologising in public to a Police officer are limited.
I read PNLD too and came to the same initial conclusion and understanding as you did. Glad you delved a little deeper, things can't be as busy on your patch as they are on mine!

As I said to Napoleon, name just 1 such offence then?

spen666

I find it rather worrying that we have police officers who are making false assertions about the law.

What is worrying? it is worrying that these people are there to enforce laws and seem to want to enforce laws that do not exist and to punish people in ways that they have no power to so do.

Perhaps this is a good reason why the use of fixed penalty notices etc are not necessarily the advantage to society that they may at first seem.

Who is there to check the actions of the police in such circumstances? Most people will pay up the fixed penalty and take the consequences for a quiet life, even if the police have acted unlawfully