Stage 4 - the Team Time Trial

Coriander
Coriander Posts: 1,326
edited July 2009 in Pro race
Hello,

I was looking to see how long tomorrow's stage is when i found this on the LeTour site:

"The team time-trial is making a comeback in the Tour de France, but with one major change: the time recorded on the line will be taken into account without tables. Real time is still the absolute rule at the 2009 Tour. That is also why the route in Montpellier is short."

What do they mean by tables? And what difference will not having tables make?

Thanks guys
«1

Comments

  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    They tried a formula last time to cap the losses by teams, so for example if say Sastre lost a lot of time thanks to his relatively weak team, the actual loss on GC would be adjusted.

    As you can imagine, it was awkward and rightly they've scrapped it.
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    There used to be a system by which teams had their losses limited to keep the GC from being distorted too much.

    For example, if the finishing order tomorrow is Garmin, Astana, Columbia, then under the old system the maximum time loss for the Astana riders would be 20 seconds, even if they finish 28 seconds down. For 3rd place it would be 30 seconds... 4th place 40 seconds... regardless of their "real" time.

    The system was designed to keep teams like Euskaltel from losing minutes upon minutes.

    Now that system has been scrapped. The TTT has been made shorter so time gaps shouldn't be huge. All teams get their actual time.
  • iain_j
    iain_j Posts: 1,941
    Maybe they're referring to the year(s) when there were "caps" on how much time each team could lose, say if the 2nd placed team was more than 30 seconds down, their loss would be capped at 30. Likewise for 3rd place capped at 1 minute, 4th at 1:30, etc, to minimise the splits.

    I'm making the numbers up but you get the idea.

    So this year, that'll be gone, if a team is 5 minutes down that's what they'll be.
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,812
    I think it could have been lost in translation. In the past they used a strange system that subsidised the time that could be lost. So for example, if you finished second by 50 seconds it was changed to thirty, third place was changed to forty seconds lost etc etc, but this year it's as you are at the finish, that's why the stage is shorter than previous TTT's, at around 37km or so.
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,812
    Aren't we just a font of knowledge. Prompt too ;)
  • Coriander
    Coriander Posts: 1,326
    Aaaaahhh, it all becomes startingly clear suddenly. Thank you.

    So Evans will b*ggered by tomorrow evening? Or am I being too harsh on Silence-Lotto?

    But under the old system - why did they bother holding a TTT? It seems pretty pointless if they're going to effectively ignore the times recoreded, was it intended as more of a spectacle than a genuine race?

    And, am I right in thinking that tomrorow the time awarded to each team member will be the time of the 5th man to cross the line? Or is it that they have to have 5 men still racing as team when they cross the line for their result to be valid?
  • iain_j
    iain_j Posts: 1,941
    It was to stop riders like Evans being b*ggered by their rubbish teams. So yes, if they're worried about that, why have the TTT :?

    And yes it's the time of the 5th man the whole team gets.
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    iain_j wrote:
    And yes it's the time of the 5th man the whole team gets.

    Unless they get dropped
    I like bikes...

    Twitter
    Flickr
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Coriander wrote:
    Aaaaahhh, it all becomes startingly clear suddenly. Thank you.

    So Evans will b*ggered by tomorrow evening? Or am I being too harsh on Silence-Lotto?

    But under the old system - why did they bother holding a TTT? It seems pretty pointless if they're going to effectively ignore the times recoreded, was it intended as more of a spectacle than a genuine race?

    And, am I right in thinking that tomrorow the time awarded to each team member will be the time of the 5th man to cross the line? Or is it that they have to have 5 men still racing as team when they cross the line for their result to be valid?

    Yes, the time is taken as the 5th rider crosses the line, but if you get dropped and finish behind the rest of your team, then you get your own time.
  • iain_j
    iain_j Posts: 1,941
    Oh - I thought it was regardless. What's counted as "dropped", not right in with the team, or so many seconds behind?
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    iain_j wrote:
    Oh - I thought it was regardless. What's counted as "dropped", not right in with the team, or so many seconds behind?

    Same as in any other stage - more than a couple of bike lengths I guess.
  • Coriander
    Coriander Posts: 1,326
    iain_j wrote:
    Oh - I thought it was regardless. What's counted as "dropped", not right in with the team, or so many seconds behind?

    Oi, that was my next question...

    But I'll add another one - does the team suffer a penalty if fewer than 5 of them cross the line together as an obvious team?

    And if the team does get spread out and there are only, say 3 of them, together crossing the line, do those three still get the time of the 5th man? But then again I guess you wouldn't bother busting a gut to finish if that were so, you'd wait for the 4th and 5th men...

    Tactics, tactics... I don't play chess because I don't do tactics, how the hell am I supposed to ever understand this bike racing thing??
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    Time is of the 5th man, even if he comes in after the team.
    I like bikes...

    Twitter
    Flickr
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Coriander wrote:
    iain_j wrote:
    Oh - I thought it was regardless. What's counted as "dropped", not right in with the team, or so many seconds behind?

    Oi, that was my next question...

    But I'll add another one - does the team suffer a penalty if fewer than 5 of them cross the line together as an obvious team?

    And if the team does get spread out and there are only, say 3 of them, together crossing the line, do those three still get the time of the 5th man? But then again I guess you wouldn't bother busting a gut to finish if that were so, you'd wait for the 4th and 5th men...

    Tactics, tactics... I don't play chess because I don't do tactics, how the hell am I supposed to ever understand this bike racing thing??

    Yeah the second one. There would be no point sprinting for the line because they still get the time of the 5th man, even if he has been left behind.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    afx237vi wrote:


    Yes, the time is taken as the 5th rider crosses the line, but if you get dropped and finish behind the rest of your team, then you get your own time.

    Yep seem to recall that happening in a previous TTT when it was wet and a few riders lost it on the home straight and lost a few minutes...........Gibo Simoni was one i think.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • iain_j
    iain_j Posts: 1,941
    redddraggon wrote:
    Time is of the 5th man, even if he comes in after the team.

    OK confused now. So where does "unless he gets dropped" come into it?
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    iain_j wrote:
    redddraggon wrote:
    Time is of the 5th man, even if he comes in after the team.

    OK confused now. So where does "unless he gets dropped" come into it?

    There are 9 riders in a team, right? Say the first 8 riders finish together. They all get the time of the 5th rider across the line. The 9th rider gets whatever time he finishes with, even if it's 5 minutes behind his team-mates.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    iain_j wrote:
    redddraggon wrote:
    Time is of the 5th man, even if he comes in after the team.

    OK confused now. So where does "unless he gets dropped" come into it?

    Riders 1-5 all get the tsame time of no 5 even if rider no 5 is way behind, riders 6-9 also get the same time if they finish in the same pack as 1-5 . Riders 6-9 will get an individual time if they get dropped and by that i presmue the normal time gap rule applies of a bike length or two.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    iain_j wrote:
    redddraggon wrote:
    Time is of the 5th man, even if he comes in after the team.

    OK confused now. So where does "unless he gets dropped" come into it?

    Anyone who finishes behind the 5th man, and detached from the 5th man's group, gets his own individual time, not that of the fifth man
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • iain_j
    iain_j Posts: 1,941
    Gotcha. I thought you meant they get #5's time unless #5 was dropped. Thanks.
  • Cumulonimbus
    Cumulonimbus Posts: 1,730
    As an example look at the first stage of the Giro

    http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/200 ... ts/giro091

    This was a team trial and, since, it was the first stage, only the times from the team time trial counted towards the overall. Garmin were the second fastest team. However, looking at the overall you can see that, whereas Columbia have nine people with the same time, Garmin only have five. This was because they only ended up with 5 men at the front. All their other riders finished later and are therefore lower in the overall.

    This can be important in the TTT because if one of the GC guys gets dropped then the team have to decide whether to wait for them or not (i think this happened to Delgado in 1989????). Say Frank or Andy Schleck cant hold last wheel tomorrow - do they wait for him or just carry on? People who get dropped early on can also get eliminated on time i think.
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    ^ That stage also partially explains why the Tour organisers wanted to try and limit the time losses. Take a look at the time gaps. Some teams lost nearly 2 minutes in 20 km. The last time the Tour had a TTT it was 67 km!
  • jackhammer111 - banned
    jackhammer111 - banned Posts: 245
    shall we use this now as a place to talk about and watch the race itself?
  • deltadawn
    deltadawn Posts: 168
    I found the start order here at cyclingfans.com:

    http://www.cyclingfans.com/node/412

    Dawn
  • Quite Frankly
    Quite Frankly Posts: 386
    The order is decided by where each team finished in the overall team classification after Stage 3 for anyone who was unsure. So Caisse start first because they are bottom in the team standings in 20th position and Astana go off last because they're the best team so far.
  • jackhammer111 - banned
    jackhammer111 - banned Posts: 245
    Quite Frankly wrote:
    The order is decided by where each team finished in the overall team classification after Stage 3 for anyone who was unsure. So Caisse start first because they are bottom in the team standings in 20th position and Astana go off last because they're the best team so far.

    and by going off last should be able to keep cancellara in yellow. :D
  • Unsheath
    Unsheath Posts: 49
    That will be the least of their concerns. They'll be trying to get every second into their other GC rivals.
  • jackhammer111 - banned
    jackhammer111 - banned Posts: 245
    Unsheath wrote:
    That will be the least of their concerns. They'll be trying to get every second into their other GC rivals.

    by winning tomorrow, but not by too much, the can control the top 4 real positions in the race without having to defend yellow all the way to stage 7.
  • Bugly
    Bugly Posts: 520
    Coriander wrote:
    Aaaaahhh, it all becomes startingly clear suddenly. Thank you.

    So Evans will b*ggered by tomorrow evening? Or am I being too harsh on Silence-Lotto?

    But under the old system - why did they bother holding a TTT? It seems pretty pointless if they're going to effectively ignore the times recoreded, was it intended as more of a spectacle than a genuine race?

    And, am I right in thinking that tomrorow the time awarded to each team member will be the time of the 5th man to cross the line? Or is it that they have to have 5 men still racing as team when they cross the line for their result to be valid?

    Evans is buggered already but will be dead in the water after stage 4. In the old system the TTT was a longer event and the time differences from the top team to the weakest was immense, the old system favoured the roullers and penalised the climbers teams (maybe a good thing IMO) so the tour tried to control how much time a great team (like discovery) could put on the race. Remember that a minute is long time to gain in GC for a contender - it was a spectacle but also very much a race.

    Yep the the front wheel of the fifth rider crossing the line stops the clocks.
  • top_bhoy
    top_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    While it can be good to watch, I've never liked or agreed with the TTT as an input into the individual race standings. It distorts the individual overall classification by only benefiting the big teams with huge salaries.
    Click here to view Top_Bhoys Pedal Force:
    Click here to view Top_Bhoys RC2:

Categories