Breathing and getting short of breath

DonDaddyD

Are there special breathing techniques when cycling?

I've noticed that I'm short of breath often on my commute but not physically tired.

cjcp

DonDaddyD wrote:

Are there special breathing techniques when cycling?

I've noticed that I'm short of breath often on my commute but not physically tired.

I don't use any. However, as an asthmatic, I will sometimes take my inhalers before heading out for a ride.

Have you been tested for asthma? (I read recently that you don't use the lungs to their full capacity; it's the knackered leg muscles that's the problem. I think anyway.)

Rich158

in - out - repeat

Seriously though the faster I go the deeper I breathe as the bodies need for oxgen increases. I'm not aware of any special techniques for cycling, unlike running or swiming. The main thing I concentrate on is deep and even breaths, which seems ot do the trick

Rich158

cjcp wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Are there special breathing techniques when cycling?

I've noticed that I'm short of breath often on my commute but not physically tired.

I don't use any. However, as an asthmatic, I will sometimes take my inhalers before heading out for a ride.

Have you been tested for asthma? (I read recently that you don't use the lungs to their full capacity; it's the knackered leg muscles that's the problem. I think anyway.)

The odd thing is that whilst I'm asthmatic and certainly suffer when running, I rarely notice it when cycling.

I agree with the knackered legs muscles, I often feel my stamina far exceeds my legs capacity to keep going, especially on long hills.

cjcp

Rich158 wrote:

The odd thing is that whilst I'm asthmatic and certainly suffer when running, I rarely notice it when cycling.

I agree with the knackered legs muscles, I often feel my stamina far exceeds my legs capacity to keep going, especially on long hills.

Tends to happen in the winter - you know, the reaction when cold air hits the lungs.

DonDaddyD

Rich158 wrote:

cjcp wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Are there special breathing techniques when cycling?

I've noticed that I'm short of breath often on my commute but not physically tired.

I don't use any. However, as an asthmatic, I will sometimes take my inhalers before heading out for a ride.

Have you been tested for asthma? (I read recently that you don't use the lungs to their full capacity; it's the knackered leg muscles that's the problem. I think anyway.)

The odd thing is that whilst I'm asthmatic and certainly suffer when running, I rarely notice it when cycling.

I agree with the knackered legs muscles, I often feel my stamina far exceeds my legs capacity to keep going, especially on long hills.

+1, haven't had asthma for years, but something like that never reallly goes away.

I use to have a puff of asthma puff when cycling as it would open the lungs... (EPO junkie....) that and chew gum as the menthol helps me breath.

I get the dead legs....

lost_in_thought

I get a weird thing occasionally when I feel like I'm only able to use half my lungs, like the bottom half is shut off or not working or something. It's very odd.

I also find I get a certain time where exertion is basically anaerobic, as if I don't have to breathe, and then all of a sudden I'm huffing and puffing like an inappropriate simile.

biondino

I think (and this is entirely unscientific) that when you start riding, your muscles are weak and get tired before you get properly out of breath. As you gain muscle mass and fitness, this gap decreases, and at some point you get to the point where your breathing can't keep up with your now awesome muscles. So according to Dr Biondino, you are now too awesome to breathe.

Greg T

I'm not a fizzyologist but....

Your breathing gets rapid when your body is burning glycogen aerobically - you need the O2 as part of the reaction to get the go juice flowing.

Whilst you are ploughing through the O2 your body gets your lungs pumping to provide it with the O2 it needs to burn the glycogen.

So you tend to find in a high cadence / high reps state your breathing will increase and your lungs will begin to suffer. Your muslces whilst fatigued will not be the limiting factor (until you run out of fuel)

At higher intensities you move to a state where you cannot deliver enough O2 to the muscles to perform this and you move to a more anerobic state whereby your body uses a less O2 dependent and less efficient pathway which "hurts more".... (lactic acid other stuff I don't understand)

In high intensity / low reps (like bench pressing a big weight) your breathing is fine but your muscles become unresponsive.

If you look at a 100m runner when they finnish they aren't struggling for breath - they don't need to - have a look at an 800m runner and they are gapsing - the two different pathways illustrated

Generally you train to delay the point at which you switch between the more efficienct aerobic and anarobic states (known as the anaerobic threshold) so that you can go for longer at higher intensities without going too far and crashing your legs.

I say again I am not a fizzyologist and most of the above may be untrue

There are lost of web resources that you can find that talk about extending your anaerobic threshold, most of the technbiques involve finding where it is (usually a basic % max heart rate calc but you can do exhaustion tests to find it) and then doing intervals up and down around your tipping point training your body to get better at pumpiing blood, getting )2 around, getting rid of the waster, fueling with Glycogen, mobilising glycogen and burning fat.

There is no such thing as a fat burning zone by the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_exercise

Rich158

Greg T wrote:

I'm not a fizzyologist but....

Your breathing gets rapid when your body is burning glycogen aerobically - you need the O2 as part of the reaction to get the go juice flowing.

At higher intensities you move to a state where you cannot deliver enough O2 to the muscles to perform this and you move to a more anerobic state whereby your body uses a less O2 dependent pathway which "hurts more".... (lactic acid other stuff I don't understand)

So you tend to find in a high cadence / high reps state your breathing will increase and your lungs will begin to suffer. Your muslces whilst fatigued will not be the limiting factor (until you run out of fuel)

In high intensity / low reps (like bench pressing a big weight) your breathing is fine but your muscles become unresponsive.

Generally you train to delay the point at which you switch between the more efficienct aerobic and anarobic states (known as the lactate threshold) so that you can go for longer at hoigher intensities without going too far and craching your legs.

I say again I am not a fizzyologist and most of the above may be untrue

That sounds about right old chap, but iirc recent research on lactic acid muddies the water somewhat. My feeble understanding is it's not the lactic acid itself the brings on the burn but hydrogen ions that are produced as the lactic acid is broken down by the muscle. The remaining part of the lactic acid is then re-used by the muscle as a very potent source of fuel, so lactic build-up may actually be beneficial.

I often think that if my legs could keep up with my aerobic capacity I'd be awesome But then I'd have to go over to the road section to get my training tips and wouldn't have a life

R_T_A

An old tip from my running days that seems to work for me on the bike too:

Before things get too "panty" - really fill your lungs up slowly with big intakes of air and imagine you're filling up the whole chest (imagine a slower version of what you do before going underwater..).

It increased my efficiency (more oxygen for less breaths), and actually concentrated me on breathing fully.

That last statement may sound stupid, but a lot of the time I was getting breathless because I wasn't preparing my body for the extra effort, and then couldn't up the intensity.

I'm sure there's a technical explanation for all of this - I just know it works for me. And yes, I used the word "panty".

il_principe

DonDaddyD wrote:

Are there special breathing techniques when cycling?

I've noticed that I'm short of breath often on my commute but not physically tired.

Well yes and no! I try to focus on my breathing on long climbs, it's important to keep your upper body loose and relaxed and your chest open - which is why you'll see a lot of people sitting up on long climbs, hands on the bars shoulders back more than usual.

However we're talking about commuting here and I suspect the answer is simple, train more, get fitter. You'll notice of course that unfit people tend to start wheezing and panting quicker than those in good shape. There's a good but longish explanation here:

Improved cardio-respiratory function means that the body is able to perform exercise much more efficiently. This results mainly from the body more effectively getting oxygen into the blood stream and transporting it to the working muscles, where it is needed for the metabolic processing of energy. In other words, the regular exerciser's body is much more proficient at loading, transporting and utilizing oxygen. He thus finds exercise such as climbing stairs far less strenuous than a person who does not exercise and is out of shape. Improvement in cardio-respiratory function does not result from changes in the lung's ability to expand, however. In general regular exercise does not substantially change measures of pulmonary function such as total lung capacity, the volume of air in the lungs after taking the largest breath possible (TLC), and forced vital capacity, the amount of air able to be blown out after taking the largest breath possible (FVC). Studies comparing TLC and FVC show little difference between regular exercisers and non exercisers, in fact. So even though people often report feeling out of breath during exercise, it is unlikely that pulmonary function limits their ability to exercise, unless they have a disease that specifically impairs lung function such as asthma, bronchitis or emphysema.

One of the largest differences between an exerciser and a non exerciser concerns the heart's ability to pump blood and consequently deliver oxygen to working muscles. Cardiac output is a major limiting factor for prolonged exercise. In addition, an exerciser typically has a larger blood volume, is better able to extract oxygen from the air in the lungs and is better able to extract oxygen from the blood at the working muscles than a sedentary individual is. Gas exchange involves not only oxygen delivery but also the removal of carbon dioxide, which is a byproduct of energy metabolism, and this process is also more efficient in an exerciser.

When all is said and done, regular exercise produces numerous favorable changes that collectively result in the body being able to work in a far more efficient manner. All of us are born with the ability to increase our physical fitness levels through regular exercise.


So in summary, some people are just born with a better Vo2 capacity than others, you can't change that but you can make your body more efficient!

NHS article here: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Breathlessness/Pages/Introduction.aspx

lost_in_thought

Il Principe wrote:

So in summary, some people are just born with a better Vo2 capacity than others, you can't change that but you can make your body more efficient!

Sorry to snip, but I just had to come in on the lung capacity thing!

I don't know whether I've interpreted the article correctly, but there are several ways to improve your lung capacity.

Whether or not this will help you cycle faster, I don't know.

il_principe

lost_in_thought wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

So in summary, some people are just born with a better Vo2 capacity than others, you can't change that but you can make your body more efficient!

Sorry to snip, but I just had to come in on the lung capacity thing!

I don't know whether I've interpreted the article correctly, but there are several ways to improve your lung capacity.

Whether or not this will help you cycle faster, I don't know.

Good point, I meant to say lung size. AFAIK You can't increase lung size but can increase capacity. Sorry!

EDIT again: Cardio fitness is still the key thing here though!

Greg T

The trick is to know your limits and work to just within them for the "event".

Endurance athletes dance along the anaerobic threshold hoping that their training has given them the edge and that they can produce more power for longer without going nuclear and dipping into the potent but fatal brew of anaerobic exercise.

Races are all won in training - most athletes know before they start if they have got the horsepower in the bag. You can't produce 110% on the day you can only work with the fizzyology you have.

If you sprint too soon you risk blowing up and getting nailed as you run out of juice before the finish.

As I'm sure you've experienced once you've blown you legs up it takes ages to recover (also served by interval training)

In that time the opposition are still banging along just below their thresholds whilst you are in a world of hurt waiting for the shouting to stop in your head.

cjcp

Il Principe wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

So in summary, some people are just born with a better Vo2 capacity than others, you can't change that but you can make your body more efficient!

Sorry to snip, but I just had to come in on the lung capacity thing!

I don't know whether I've interpreted the article correctly, but there are several ways to improve your lung capacity.

Whether or not this will help you cycle faster, I don't know.

Good point, I meant to say lung size. AFAIK You can't increase lung size but can increase capacity. Sorry!

EDIT again: Cardio fitness is still the key thing here though!

Isn't it a question of efficiency (ie CV fitness) than actual capacity?

Greg T

Lung capacity is interesting but efficiency is more telling.

CV fitness is a mix of how much air you pump, how much blood you cycle, the efficiency of getting you gases mixed, how much fuel you have / in what state, how much muscle you have (and of what sort) and how you dispose of waste.

Lung capacity is just one measure.

Rich158

You can't change the volume of your lungs (their size), you're stuck with the ones you were born with But you can change the amount of air taken in and exhaled by your lungs (the tidal flow) and the efficency with which they captuer the oxygen, hence the increase in CV fitness through training

Kieran_Burns

There is also the Oxygen saturation levels within the lungs to take into account. It's not commonly understood that the air composition in the deepest parts of the lungs do not change during normal use. (i.e. not exercising)

When you do excercise and do not deep breathe, you are not fully replenishing the oxygen levels within the deepest parts of the lungs and you start to lower the oxygen levels within the blood as there is less to transfer.

Please note this is an additional concern and not the main one.... to address this issue, sitting up and forced deep breathing helps. It's what deep divers do as part of their preparation. Try it yourself - fully exhale and inhale several times to saturate your lungs with oxygen rich air (which will also increase the levels in the blood) and you can easily hold your breath longer than with no preparation.

jonginge

By Jove, I think he's on to something. Let's take this back to the boffins at the game labs.
* tum-ti-tum, time passes *
Just got word back: it's cheating, apparently

DonDaddyD

I'm gonna take deep breaths from 4pm, come 5pm I'll be able to sprint 7miles by taking one single breath.

Use my asthma pump* and I won't have to breath at all.

*its not EPO its not illegal under SCR rules....

R_T_A

Kieran_Burns wrote:

There is also the Oxygen saturation levels within the lungs to take into account. It's not commonly understood that the air composition in the deepest parts of the lungs do not change during normal use. (i.e. not exercising)

When you do excercise and do not deep breathe, you are not fully replenishing the oxygen levels within the deepest parts of the lungs and you start to lower the oxygen levels within the blood as there is less to transfer.

Please note this is an additional concern and not the main one.... to address this issue, sitting up and forced deep breathing helps. It's what deep divers do as part of their preparation. Try it yourself - fully exhale and inhale several times to saturate your lungs with oxygen rich air (which will also increase the levels in the blood) and you can easily hold your breath longer than with no preparation.

There you go - I knew there was a more technical explanation than my "breathe a bit deeper before you get panty".

Christophe3967

Miguel Indurain had a lung capacity of 8 litres (6 litres is the norm). He also had a resting heart rate of about 30 (almost as good as ITB's ). In the mountain stages of the Tour de France, Indurain was able to take his pulse up to 190 bpm then drop it back to 60 on the descent within half a minute. So he rarely appeared to be trying. :?

A side effect, for those of us with big lungs, is that you can be mistaken for a fat bloke with a beer belly.

Rich158

Christophe3967 wrote:

Miguel Indurain had a lung capacity of 8 litres (6 litres is the norm). He also had a resting heart rate of about 30 (almost as good as ITB's ). In the mountain stages of the Tour de France, Indurain was able to take his pulse up to 190 bpm then drop it back to 60 on the descent within half a minute. So he rarely appeared to be trying. :?

A side effect, for those of us with big lungs, is that you can be mistaken for a fat bloke with a beer belly.

So all that time spent propping up the bar gassing is actually training to increase your lung efficiency

I think I've just found my new training regime

Kieran_Burns

Christophe3967 wrote:

A side effect, for those of us with big lungs, is that you can be mistaken for a fat bloke with a beer belly.

"It's not a beer gut. I have a 3rd lung"

Greg T

That's one of the reasons why athletes do high altitude training. The higher you go the less pressure the air is under and the harder you have to work to get it across the fluid barrier and into your bloodstream.

When you come back down to circa sea level you have turbo charging built in and you are running a super rich mix.

Also why blood doping (pumping yourself full of your own platelets that you previously siphoned off) works - you have a greater O2 transport capability.

cjcp

Christophe3967 wrote:

So he rarely appeared to be trying. :?

Hence why he cracked so gracefully in '96.

rally200

DDD sounds like mild asthma & London (diesel particulates) - used to get similar until my work changed so that I'm now a semi-rural cycle commuter & no longer go into town, or sit in a car all day

gtvlusso

Asthma seems to be so prevelent in todays society - kids, CJCP, DDD.....some nice country bumpkin air should be prescribed.....It would be interesting to just find a bit of common geography to the well documented problem, just to prove the theories of asthma and inner city living.

Personally, Legs go before lungs, but I do use those things that you stick on your nose - breathrite strips or something like that. Quite useful and it lulls people who are panting out of their mouth into thinking that you are hyper fit as you have your mouth closed!!

jonginge

gtvlusso wrote:

Asthma seems to be so prevelent in todays society - kids, CJCP, DDD.....some nice country bumpkin air should be prescribed.....It would be interesting to just find a bit of common geography to the well documented problem, just to prove the theories of asthma and inner city living.

Personally, Legs go before lungs, but I do use those things that you stick on your nose - breathrite strips or something like that. Quite useful and it lulls people who are panting out of their mouth into thinking that you are hyper fit as you have your mouth closed!!

Or they think it's a sure thing you're on EPO, according to the gurus on the Pro Race bit of the forum

jonginge

Back to the OP question. Personally, DDD, I think you've probably got powerful legs but don't quite have the aerobic fitness yet. A few longer weekend rides should get you going...