Michael Rasmussen

bikerZA

I agree with those saying he's done his time. I know he lied, but he wasn't convicted of doping, and there's no proof he ever doped. I don't know why people have got more of an issue with him than the guys who were caught actually doping

cougie

I'd have the same issues with people caught doping to be honest. Times have changed and you cant just sweep the doping under the carpet again. If you run a clean team - I wouldnt want to hire a doper for people to whisper about.

attica

I think the reason he is so loathed is because he was displaying such tenacity and making the tour so interesting at the time he got rumbled, I for one was fast becoming a fan. Felt like the tour was over after that.

At least Landis had the good grace to get caught after the fact (and yes, naive as it may sound, I would have loved it if his "comeback" stage had been clean, I watched that stage slack jawed in amazement)

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

But I don't think he has any place in the sport. He may have served his time but he did this without any apology to fans, colleagues or race organisers.

Think Dennisn has touched on this previously, him giving or not giving an apology means nothing at the end of the day . He cheated he got caught he has served his time there is no clause there that says he has to give what would be a hollow apology to all and sundry to allow him to race again.

Kléber

No clause, indeed MG. But sport touches on something more than the law, the roadside fans who get up at the crack of dawn to walk up a mountain to briefly salute these "convicts of the road" do not do this as part of some legal contract, it's about sport, passion and emotion.

That's why few fans of the sport are clamouring for him to sign for a big team and why few managers will even talk to him. As you say, Rasmussen is entitled to come back and he's doing that.

An apology can be meaningless, and it can be for cynical reasons, you can fake your humility and sorrow just in order to claim the next pay cheque. Basso's comeback is an example of a PR. But as I say, Rasmussen's attitude has largely determined why he's struggling to join a decent team.

LangerDan

Its back to the old Brendan Behan statement - "Which would Your Honour find less objectionable - If I made an insincere apology or no apology at all?" Apologies / no apologies/ confessions / condemnations - they're all just horse apples. Several of the darlings of the clean cycling movement publicly condemmed doping in interviews while engaged in the practice.

I don't want him back at the mo' , not because of the lack of apology or explanation, but because, as was flagged in Iainf's link in another thread, it appears he may not have reformed. An Austrian investigation suspects him of providing doping services and he went to visit Herr Kohls blood centrifuge last September. That wasn't just to spin his wet clothes dry.

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

No clause, indeed MG. But sport touches on something more than the law, the roadside fans who get up at the crack of dawn to walk up a mountain to briefly salute these "convicts of the road" do not do this as part of some legal contract, it's about sport, passion and emotion.

That's why few fans of the sport are clamouring for him to sign for a big team and why few managers will even talk to him. As you say, Rasmussen is entitled to come back and he's doing that.

An apology can be meaningless, and it can be for cynical reasons, you can fake your humility and sorrow just in order to claim the next pay cheque. Basso's comeback is an example of a PR. But as I say, Rasmussen's attitude has largely determined why he's struggling to join a decent team.

He is 35 years old his chances of joining a decent team were slim at best anyway, i bear no issue with him now he has erved his time let him ride if he gets a good gig fine if he doesnt then move on. This he has'nt apologised thing is very hollow imo.

deejay

iainf72 wrote:

Remember, this is a guy who scared CSC off because of his wierd blood values. And that was in the days of Hamilton et al.

One thing is for certain that RIIS would know about that subject. !

frenchfighter

Kléber wrote:

No clause, indeed MG. But sport touches on something more than the law, the roadside fans who get up at the crack of dawn to walk up a mountain to briefly salute these "convicts of the road" do not do this as part of some legal contract, it's about sport, passion and emotion.

That's why few fans of the sport are clamouring for him to sign for a big team and why few managers will even talk to him. As you say, Rasmussen is entitled to come back and he's doing that.

An apology can be meaningless, and it can be for cynical reasons, you can fake your humility and sorrow just in order to claim the next pay cheque. Basso's comeback is an example of a PR. But as I say, Rasmussen's attitude has largely determined why he's struggling to join a decent team.

Very well said.

Kléber

LangerDan wrote:

as was flagged in Iainf's link in another thread, it appears he may not have reformed. An Austrian investigation suspects him of providing doping services and he went to visit Herr Kohls blood centrifuge last September. That wasn't just to spin his wet clothes dry.

I fully agree, my point isn't so much on making an apology, it's more about making amends and changing your ways. Although the first step to this is to make some public recognition that you were busted.

dennisn

Kléber wrote:

LangerDan wrote:

as was flagged in Iainf's link in another thread, it appears he may not have reformed. An Austrian investigation suspects him of providing doping services and he went to visit Herr Kohls blood centrifuge last September. That wasn't just to spin his wet clothes dry.

I fully agree, my point isn't so much on making an apology, it's more about making amends and changing your ways. Although the first step to this is to make some public recognition that you were busted.

Why would he apoligize or do some "public recognition"? And to whom? What, there
are maybe 10 people on this forum who want him to? You guys act like there are vast
numbers of people out there who are "concerned". No, you are deluded if you think millions of people care what he does or want an "apology". And he knows this. You can demand whatever you like on as many forums as you like but the people you complain about don't care what you think of them. Least of all they are not going to apologise to the world because 10 guys on some forum think they should. They don't even know you exist
and even if they did it still wouldn't make any difference.

iainf72

Ok Dennis

Explain why no decent team would sign him then? Yes, that's right sunshine (or is it twilight in your case), because people do care.

Pokerface

dennisn wrote:

Why would he apoligize or do some "public recognition"? And to whom? What, there
are maybe 10 people on this forum who want him to? You guys act like there are vast
numbers of people out there who are "concerned". No, you are deluded if you think millions of people care what he does or want an "apology". And he knows this. You can demand whatever you like on as many forums as you like but the people you complain about don't care what you think of them. Least of all they are not going to apologise to the world because 10 guys on some forum think they should. They don't even know you exist and even if they did it still wouldn't make any difference.

Why? I dunno. Maybe his teammates, sponsors, fans, etc might all want to hear he was sorry for f-ing up the Tour for them that year. Perception is king, especially in sport. If you can't show some class and say you're sorry for your mistakes - it's hard to move on.

dennisn

iainf72 wrote:

Ok Dennis

Explain why no decent team would sign him then? Yes, that's right sunshine (or is it twilight in your case), because people do care.

Because YOU care he's not being signed to a team? Get real. You don't mattter. Your name was never mentioned. Nobody quoted you. Noboby asked your opinion on whether
anyone should hire him. He will live and die(in cycling) by his OWN actions. Just like you and I. What you think about what he does, doesn't do, should do, won't do, is of zero concern to him and for that matter the people who hire him or not. Just as it doesn't matter to you what I think, why should it matter to Mikey R. what you think? You're not the one who's responsible for him getting a job or not. Bluntly, we're(all of us) aren't that
important.

The Prodigy

By offering no sort of remorse Rasmussen might as well just give everyone a two fingered salute. You may be right Dennis, that there aren't millions of people out there waiting for an apology but there are plenty that would like to believe he has regrets. The trouble is, he hasn't.

Kléber

Dennis, err, it's not about the opinion of forum members here, it's about the opinions of millions of consumers in Europe. They might think about a savings account with Rabobank or buying something to quieten their snoring from Silence. And yes, the fans matter for any sport than ignores them doesn't last too long: TV viewing figures are crucial.

Having a man ejected in the middle of the Tour de France for involvement in a doping scandal isn't going to help sales or the brand. It might also jeopardise your chances of a ride in the Tour as ASO are unlikely to welcome the man with open arms given the burnt bridges.

dennisn

The Prodigy wrote:

By offering no sort of remorse Rasmussen might as well just give everyone a two fingered salute. You may be right Dennis, that there aren't millions of people out there waiting for an apology but there are plenty that would like to believe he has regrets. The trouble is, he hasn't.

"The trouble is...."? Trouble for who? Mikey? It's no trouble for him. You've never flipped anyone off. Basically telling THEM, you don't give a rats *ss. Why does he have to do all these things that YOU want him to do? He's got to do this, he's got to do that, he's got to apoligize, he's got to make it sincere, he's gotta have regrets, he's gotta, he's gotta...... I'd flip you off too if you started making demands of ME, simply to make YOU feel better. And I'm sure you'd do the same to me. I don't feel bad about what he, allegedly, did. And it's not his fault that some people find it "hard to move on". You don't own these people and they don't have to do or be what you think they should be or do.

The Prodigy

dennisn wrote:

The Prodigy wrote:

By offering no sort of remorse Rasmussen might as well just give everyone a two fingered salute. You may be right Dennis, that there aren't millions of people out there waiting for an apology but there are plenty that would like to believe he has regrets. The trouble is, he hasn't.

"The trouble is...."? Trouble for who? Mikey? It's no trouble for him. You've never flipped anyone off. Basically telling THEM, you don't give a rats *ss. Why does he have to do all these things that YOU want him to do? He's got to do this, he's got to do that, he's got to apoligize, he's got to make it sincere, he's gotta have regrets, he's gotta, he's gotta...... I'd flip you off too if you started making demands of ME, simply to make YOU feel better. And I'm sure you'd do the same to me. I don't feel bad about what he, allegedly, did. And it's not his fault that some people find it "hard to move on". You don't own these people and they don't have to do or be what you think they should be or do.

Yes trouble for Mikey, he's the one who was about to win the world's biggest cycle race and is now relegated to some two bit Mexican team. If he'd have come out full of apologies, full of remorse he would have had a chance at a proper team like some of those who have gone before.

You are right he doesn't have to do or be what I want but where has it got him so far??

dennisn

The Prodigy wrote:

dennisn wrote:

The Prodigy wrote:

By offering no sort of remorse Rasmussen might as well just give everyone a two fingered salute. You may be right Dennis, that there aren't millions of people out there waiting for an apology but there are plenty that would like to believe he has regrets. The trouble is, he hasn't.

"The trouble is...."? Trouble for who? Mikey? It's no trouble for him. You've never flipped anyone off. Basically telling THEM, you don't give a rats *ss. Why does he have to do all these things that YOU want him to do? He's got to do this, he's got to do that, he's got to apoligize, he's got to make it sincere, he's gotta have regrets, he's gotta, he's gotta...... I'd flip you off too if you started making demands of ME, simply to make YOU feel better. And I'm sure you'd do the same to me. I don't feel bad about what he, allegedly, did. And it's not his fault that some people find it "hard to move on". You don't own these people and they don't have to do or be what you think they should be or do.

Yes trouble for Mikey, he's the one who was about to win the world's biggest cycle race and is now relegated to some two bit Mexican team. If he'd have come out full of apologies, full of remorse he would have had a chance at a proper team like some of those who have gone before.

You are right he doesn't have to do or be what I want but where has it got him so far??

He's not your responsibility. Maybe he doesn't even WANT a PROPER team. Whatever that means. These are human beings. Not subject to your whims or mine. They owe you nothing. They sign a few autographs, shake hands with some of the crowd, and then they get away from the "fans" as quickly as they can. I would too. Too many weirdo and whacko fans clawing to touch you, hear a word from you, have you sign a piece of paper, get a picture of you, do something stupid near you, tell friends they saw you,
tell you how much they love you, etc., etc. They spend as little time with "fans" as possible.

Pokerface

Without the fans - there would be no sport. Anywhere, except perhaps the Olympics and the local parks on Sunday afternoons.

Have no illusions- modern sport is paid for by the FANS.

dennisn

Pokerface wrote:

Without the fans - there would be no sport. Anywhere, except perhaps the Olympics and the local parks on Sunday afternoons.

Have no illusions- modern sport is paid for by the FANS.

Never said it wasn't, but despite what the sports teams and the players tell you(we love our fans) they don't want to be around you for very long. They don't love you, they love
your money. When the last time you saw soccer players(or any pros) partying with the "fans" after a big game. They don't want to be near "fans" and I don't blame them.

afx237vi

Dennis is being deliberately obtuse. Again. He knows full well how cycling works. It's all about image. You make the right noises, you say the right things, you wear the right uniform and you present a positive image for the brand. That's not just how cycling works, or sport as a whole, that's how the world works.

Cyclists who have served a ban have a choice. They can say they made a mistake and apologise, even if they don't mean it (helloooo Ivan), and come back to the top table. Or they can stick to their guns and look forward to riding the Vuelta a Chihuahua next year. It's up the them.

I don't think anyone's going to miss Rasmussen around here anyway.

RichN95.

dennisn wrote:

When the last time you saw soccer players(or any pros) partying with the "fans" after a big game. They don't want to be near "fans" and I don't blame them.

It does happen. I've seen the Wales rugby team out with the plebs on several occasions after a game.

Plus he's some video evidence of football players doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1MfDG9fanY

afx237vi

Here's some more footage of Stevie G getting to know his fans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HkLzXipsmQ

attica

Dennis, you really need to take a chillaxative.

I think the atitude problem of Rasmussen is thrown into sharp relief when you look at Cavendish's statements this year about not wanting to win Green, but wanting to get maximum exposure for his sponsors by winning stages. Now there's a guy who knows which side of the bread is buttered.

Not sure that Rabobank are as happy about their exposure thanks to MR, nor that any other sponsors want a repeat performance. THAT is why Rasmussen has just signed for Miguel Mouse Mehico or whoever. A shame, I'd have enjoyed watching his (potential) rehabilitation.

cougie

Blimey Dennis - you sound like a character from Taxi Driver today.

I guess Rasmussen probably wouldnt want to hang out with the fans, probably because most of them wouldnt respect or want to hang out with him. He's a cheating git.

Look at Ironman World champion Chrissie Wellington - she'll win a race in 8 and a half hours and still be there at the finish over 7 hours later welcoming in the last finisher. She's the best triathlete in the world and she still has time for the fans. Thats class.

Rasmussen is nothing.

disgruntledgoat

dennisn wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

Without the fans - there would be no sport. Anywhere, except perhaps the Olympics and the local parks on Sunday afternoons.

Have no illusions- modern sport is paid for by the FANS.

Never said it wasn't, but despite what the sports teams and the players tell you(we love our fans) they don't want to be around you for very long. They don't love you, they love
your money. When the last time you saw soccer players(or any pros) partying with the "fans" after a big game. They don't want to be near "fans" and I don't blame them.

Sunday night after Warrington won the challenge cup, and I claim my £5.

prawny

Yep, my dad wen't out partying with the Wolves team when they won the FA cup, this was a while ago though when football was more on a par with cycling cash wise.

Emlyn Hughes in a club in Cannock weird :?

dennisn

cougie wrote:

Blimey Dennis - you sound like a character from Taxi Driver today.

I guess Rasmussen probably wouldnt want to hang out with the fans, probably because most of them wouldnt respect or want to hang out with him. He's a cheating git.

Look at Ironman World champion Chrissie Wellington - she'll win a race in 8 and a half hours and still be there at the finish over 7 hours later welcoming in the last finisher. She's the best triathlete in the world and she still has time for the fans. Thats class.

Rasmussen is nothing.

I think you miss my point. Class or no class, YOU AND I, cannot lay claim to any of these people as our own. They are not yours or mine or ours. "We"(all of us) have no control over their lives, yet the demands, on these people, for apologies, remorse, sorrow, confession, lifestyle changes, retirement, etc. continue to flow in as if they OWE us something simply because we watch them on TV and are fans. They belong to us, or so some people would believe, and they are supposed to do what we want.

moray_gub

cougie wrote:

Blimey Dennis - you sound like a character from Taxi Driver today.

I guess Rasmussen probably wouldnt want to hang out with the fans, probably because most of them wouldnt respect or want to hang out with him. He's a cheating git.

Look at Ironman World champion Chrissie Wellington - she'll win a race in 8 and a half hours and still be there at the finish over 7 hours later welcoming in the last finisher. She's the best triathlete in the world and she still has time for the fans. Thats class.

Rasmussen is nothing.

Apart from an extremely wealthy young man who could ride a bike very well, albeit assisted in his later years with PEDs just like David Millar,Ivan Basso,Emanuele Sella,Riccardo Ricco etec etc etc.Are they nothing too ? or have they made the right noises to satisfy you and ease your feeling of personal hurt ?