Gusev at CAS

iainf72
iainf72 Posts: 15,784
edited June 2009 in Pro race
CAS say sacking him wrong

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gusev-b ... s-decision

On the same day at the passport cases which can't bode well, eh?
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.

Comments

  • SpaceJunk
    SpaceJunk Posts: 1,157
    When I heard that, I also wondered if the passport cases were related to this.

    You'd hope not; otherwise I know what my defense would be if I was charged through the passport program.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Well it seemed a unilateral decision from Astana. His values were supposedly suspicious so they sacked him, no involvement from WADA or the UCI. But then T-Mobile did the same with Sergei Honchar.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    I read this on "Tutto", last night. More money to find.
    Maybe the UCI could sub the Kazakh's for Bruyneel's actions?

    Yes, it shows that, without a positive test, teams that take on the UCI's work, based upon assport readings, face potentially long and expensive legal battles.
    However, If CAS return a few more verdicts like this,( maybe some of the "Five") setting a presidence, then, the assport system is dead and buried.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,123
    From an interview with Basayev, it sounds like Bruyneel will be bearing the brunt of the Gusev costs and not the sponsors. JB has apparently signed up to full responsibitlity for the action against Gusev.
  • Bakunin
    Bakunin Posts: 868
    In Procycling, a couple of years back, there was a feature on Gusev -- it was clear that he did not get along with the Hog.

    When he was suspended, I always wondered whether there was more to the story than shifting blood values.

    Of course, Gusev did seem to be a piece of work -- wanting to be a porn star if cycling didn't work out.
  • SpaceJunk
    SpaceJunk Posts: 1,157
    Bakunin wrote:
    In Procycling, a couple of years back, there was a feature on Gusev -- it was clear that he did not get along with the Hog.

    When he was suspended, I always wondered whether there was more to the story than shifting blood values.

    Of course, Gusev did seem to be a piece of work -- wanting to be a porn star if cycling didn't work out.

    Not a bad profession if you can get the work.
  • Yorkman
    Yorkman Posts: 290
    Damsgaard is able to fit his schedule to work with at least one Astana rider then....
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    I read this on "Tutto", last night. More money to find.
    Maybe the UCI could sub the Kazakh's for Bruyneel's actions?

    Yes, it shows that, without a positive test, teams that take on the UCI's work, based upon assport readings, face potentially long and expensive legal battles.
    However, If CAS return a few more verdicts like this,( maybe some of the "Five") setting a presidence, then, the assport system is dead and buried.


    In most lines of work you need to have good reason to sack someone or face the potential legal and financial consequences if you still go ahead , this seems no different from that. Sure a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth but why shouldnt Gusev be given some kind of legal protection ?
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    Moray Gub wrote:
    In most lines of work you need to have good reason to sack someone or face the potential legal and financial consequences if you still go ahead , this seems no different from that. Sure a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth but why shouldnt Gusev be given some kind of legal protection ?

    Oh, I agree, absolutely, MG.
    That's why I referred to the lengthy legal issue.
    Any conviction handed out, based soley on a fluctuation in a set of blood values, has it's foundations built upon sand.

    If we are to move away from suspensions from positive tests alone, then the standard of proof has to be high.

    I would like to see other factors built into this passport, such as power outputs.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Sure a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth but why shouldnt Gusev be given some kind of legal protection ?
    True but I think it works the other way, Gusev gets the boot without the details going to the UCI, so it's a straight sacking without any ban.

    My concern is that if suspicious numbers come up this should be communicated to the UCI first, rather than just sacking the rider.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Gusev has been cleared by the CAS:
    http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/documen ... 201643.pdf

    Astana are ordered to pay him his lost salary of €654,166.67 :shock: plus interest.

    Basically Daamsgard contacted Bruyneel to say Gusev showed "strong indicators of bone marrow stimulation caused by exogenous EPO or a substance with a similar effect i.e. CERA".

    But Gusev did not fail any UCI controls, indeed he passed many controls, he has not been found guilty of any sporting offence and therefore should not have been sacked.

    More so since the way samples were collected for Damsgaard were not done in the same way as normal anti-doping samples, there was no protective "chain of custody" handling.

    Above all, the CAS said that when the reviewed the data from Damsgaard, none of the numbers, even the reticulocyte count, were abnormal.

    In short, Astana might have suspected Gusev of using CERA but there was no evidence and Damsgaard did not conduct any follow up testing. The CAS said sacking him was not justified.
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    More likely Bruyneel saw a good excuse to get rid of a rider who he couldn't control
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    micron wrote:
    More likely Bruyneel saw a good excuse to get rid of a rider who he couldn't control

    Doubt it, he (JB) seemed to be happy with him, took him after Discovery folded to Astana.
    Sure makes Damsgaards program very questionable.
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Bruyneel didn't get on with him, hence my comment - however, I absolutely agree on the value of programmes like Damsgaard's
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    A cynic would make the case that a programme like Damsgaard's is a good way of ensuring that none of your riders tests positive and can be used to circumvent the biological passport testing.

    That it also has PR benefits makes it a win all round.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Gusev was on €275,000 for 2008 €340,000 for 2009. No wonder they jumped at the chance of unloading him, for his results were very light.

    These private testing schemes are very suspect. They give a veneer of respectibility but can also be used as Andy says to warn riders, to make sure they present respectable numbers to the anti-doping controls. Above all, they give the employer the power to decide, if the lab reports back suspicious numbers, no one tells the UCI or WADA, it is left to the team to take action. Maybe some riders might be sacked but others might be kept on and the questionable numbers are kept quiet.

    If a team feels the need to subscribe for such a scheme, it should instead spend the money on paying the UCI or an independent third party to conduct these tests, they should not be internal, secret things.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Surely if Astana note strange values that indicate use of CERA etc... they can request that one of the testing bodies test Gusev more rigorously in a targeted manner, thus ensuring he either tests positive or is exonorated?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    disgruntledgoat, perhaps now, in the era of the blood passport that might work. But in the past having a dodgy reticulocyte count or off score was only grounds for suspicion, it's not proof. CERA was undectectable and this is what the Gusev case comes down to: suspicions are not grounds to sack a rider.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Surely if Astana note strange values that indicate use of CERA etc... they can request that one of the testing bodies test Gusev more rigorously in a targeted manner, thus ensuring he either tests positive or is exonorated?
    Or they can sack him and avoid paying his salary. Except they failed this time.
  • cswebbo
    cswebbo Posts: 220
    That is an incredible amount of money to be paying a rider of this level of performance.
    It seems some salaries are way out of line with actual worth.

    I could understand it if he earnt a big bonus for a tdf win for LA/AC.

    I was under the impression Bruynell had a reputation of paying riders the low end of their market value?
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Just an aside but Astana, namely the sponsors, are not involved in all of this. They might be slow to pay cash but this should not cost them any more money.

    The case was between Gusev and Olympus Sarl, with Olympus being the front Luxembourg company set up and controlled by Bruyneel. So as of today, Bruyneel has been forced to find north of €500,000.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    andyp wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Surely if Astana note strange values that indicate use of CERA etc... they can request that one of the testing bodies test Gusev more rigorously in a targeted manner, thus ensuring he either tests positive or is exonorated?
    Or they can sack him and avoid paying his salary. Except they failed this time.


    The second part of this strategy being "sack him and avoid paying his salary" following a positive. That way, they comply with all the rules nad, indeed, the law and also recieve brownie points for tipping off the UCI about one of their own riders. Surely if they did that and were reasonably certain Gusev had been cheating their exposure to his salary would be limited to a few months rather than 2 years.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    We don't know if Gusev was acting alone in his alleged use of CERA, it may have been that he was on a team program. If the latter then Astana would be very unlikely to seek assistance from the UCI in disciplining one of their riders. Can you imagine the reaction of the rest of the team if they got wind of this behaviour? They'd be a lot more reticent to continue that's for sure.

    If the former then Astana should have got the UCI involved. They didn't, instead they took the unilateral decision to fire a rider and have suffered the consquences of doing so without following the proper legal process.

    Personally I think there is a lot more to this whole sordid affair than meets the eye and I doubt we'll ever know exactly what happened.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    andyp wrote:
    We don't know if Gusev was acting alone in his alleged use of CERA, it may have been that he was on a team program. If the latter then Astana would be very unlikely to seek assistance from the UCI in disciplining one of their riders. Can you imagine the reaction of the rest of the team if they got wind of this behaviour? They'd be a lot more reticent to continue that's for sure.

    If the former then Astana should have got the UCI involved. They didn't, instead they took the unilateral decision to fire a rider and have suffered the consquences of doing so without following the proper legal process.

    Personally I think there is a lot more to this whole sordid affair than meets the eye and I doubt we'll ever know exactly what happened.

    If that is indeed the case, then why sack him in the first place (other than the salary issue), as surely dodgy blood values are the name of the game! I'll never understand pro sport.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    As I said, I think there is more to this than meets the eye. He was being paid a lot, and wasn't winning much so maybe that's the reason. He has a reputation for being a bit awkward so maybe it was related to indiscipline. Or maybe his face didn't fit. We don't know.

    All we know from this episoide iis that if you are going to fire a rider for alleged transgressions then it would make much more sense to involve the UCI and open a disciplinary hearing than to act alone and without enough evidence. As Bruyneel has learnt to his cost.
  • skavanagh.bikeradar
    skavanagh.bikeradar Posts: 1,097
    Kleber, I agree that the internal testing schemes are crap but you have to remember the context that spawned them - UCI inaction after Puerto and teams attemting to keep sponsors. At the time I thought it a good idea. Now I agree with you, the internal testing money should be pooled and spent with WADA. I would say the UCI, but welll........

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