Bike Questions: XC vs AM

schlange

I am new to mtb and still searching for the right bike. I used to do road cycling, but want to move into more natural and fun areas

I am still confused by the different types of bikes and the types of riding they are designed for. Thus, I want to get some clarity around that before I buy the wrong bike.
I live in Switzerland and I believe the type of riding I will do is:

* Trails in various mountains and hills here
* Longer multi-day tours on national and regional mtb rodes (I can virtually go via bike from Switzerland to and EU country - France, Germany, Austria, etc) - all on well known trails over the Alps or around as I wish.
* Climbing on trails in the Alps and some safer downhill riding (if you go up, you need to come down) - but nothing like a kamikaze rider dropping 6 feet off cliffs.

I know that a downhill bike is not what I need, but what are these other type bikes designed for: All Mountain, XC, Enduro, Race, Free Ride? I guess each bike has different geometry, weight, and performance characteristics. So it is probably worth getting the right bike for what I want to do.

How much travel in front and rear would be minimum and optimum for my riding? I thought more was always better, but is that really the case?

Jonesy.

Sounds like you have some great riding territory!

Your question depends on your budget. Good full-suspension 'all-mountain' bikes start at around £1500. If you can't afford this, you may be better going down the hardtail (front suspension) route, as you can get a pretty decent ride for under £1000. Or, you may want to start off with a cheaper bike in case you find mountain biking less enjoyable than road riding (but that's very unlikely ).

If you go the hardtail route, I would get something with short-travel forks (up to 100mm), as these will be better for climbing, and certainly ample for long down hills.

If you can afford it, a high-end full suspension bike (such as the Cannondale Rize for example) can be very lightweight and you can lock-out the rear suspension to turn it into a hardtail for the climbs. So that might actually be a better choice for you, though I'm not familiar with the travel set-ups on these bikes, as I only ride hardtails.

Also, the geometry of some bikes is geared towards XC racing (both full suss and hardtails), so the rider position is typically lower and more stretched out, which may not suit you. But these bikes do tend to climb very well (see the Scott Scale as an example).

So you need to work out what budget you have, then go and test ride some bikes - both hardtail and full-suspension, and see what feels right.

bomberesque

^ what he said

as far as amount of suspension is concerned, the industry has been adding inches for years. Currently an "all mountain" bike (current marketting speak for a bike for everything) will have from 140-160mm travel front and rear. It may go higher but I have a feeling it won't. It's a very fluid definition though and geometry can vary widely from bike to bike, I'd say in many cases depending on whether the bike is a scaled down version of that companies DH/FR rig or an upscaled version of their XC one, but that is probably too much of a generalisation.

Testing is the only way to be sure, you may find out that Hardtail is where you need to be (FS bikes and esp mid travel ones, no matter the hype, climb differently from HT bikes) but if I lived where you do and doing all day rides I'd be looking at something 140-150mm, light, steepish geometry and short in the top tube. something like a Yeti 575, Ibis Mojo, Intense Tracer etc etc, but these are all quite exotic and you'll probably end up dropping 3000 Euros+ before you're done. There are cheaper options (Spesh Pitch for example)

bug your mates to test their bikes and get to a bike shop to test what's in stock.

schlange

bomberesque wrote:

^ what he said

as far as amount of suspension is concerned, the industry has been adding inches for years. Currently an "all mountain" bike (current marketting speak for a bike for everything) will have from 140-160mm travel front and rear. It may go higher but I have a feeling it won't. It's a very fluid definition though and geometry can vary widely from bike to bike, I'd say in many cases depending on whether the bike is a scaled down version of that companies DH/FR rig or an upscaled version of their XC one, but that is probably too much of a generalisation.

Testing is the only way to be sure, you may find out that Hardtail is where you need to be (FS bikes and esp mid travel ones, no matter the hype, climb differently from HT bikes) but if I lived where you do and doing all day rides I'd be looking at something 140-150mm, light, steepish geometry and short in the top tube. something like a Yeti 575, Ibis Mojo, Intense Tracer etc etc, but these are all quite exotic and you'll probably end up dropping 3000 Euros+ before you're done. There are cheaper options (Spesh Pitch for example)

bug your mates to test their bikes and get to a bike shop to test what's in stock.

Thanks bomberesque

As far as budget, I would say I would be happy to spend 4500 Euro and would need to consider the advantages of going over 5000. I tend to buy the highest quality I can afford and have found good gear helps to enjoy the sport.

I thought of the Yeti and I tend to think I would want a more upright position and not an aggressive stretched out position if I want to do longer rides. Thus the shorter top tube sounds right. What does Steepish Geometry actually mean? Is that more flat riding or more upright riding?

So if I undersood correctly, an AM bike is typically a XC frame with some higher quality components and more travel in the front and rear? I would like to go with full sus and have the ability to lock out from the handle bars if needed.

In addition to the Yeti, I have also thought about Canyon. I will need to look at the Geometry on those and see how they are different. The problem with Canyon is it is direct from manufacturer in Germany so I cannot really test ride it so easily. :x

Fridge-Seal

Hi wow looks like ur going 2 be doing some seriously epic riding!

I live in Australia (And don't know the conersion rate to euro's at the moment) so I'll stay out of the price thing...but be careful an All mountain bike (AM) is not an XC frame with better spec and more travel!
An XC bike is built to climb fantastically well and can descend OK typically its geometry, is a more stretched out body position, steep head (increases climbing ability) and seat angle (puts you more towards the bars and front of the bike) and such like, it may feel more "twitchy" on the way down but that depends on the finer points of its geometry. There's a whole lot of stuff out there and in science and engineering about how geometry changes things- so I won't go into it.

But a trail bike (120 to 140 mm of travel) front and rear is like an XC bike but built for "all day comfort" in mind, or just playing around on trails, these bikes are generally towards the lighter end of the weight spectrum (although not as much as a dedicated XC bike or XC racer is) and have slacker head and seat angles (one of many geometry changes) for a more "relaxed" handling feel. They can also built to be "technical" climbers, meaning that they can climb those tricky and/or steep parts of the trail and can descend better than an XC bike-typically.
These bikes aren't as 'toughly' built as an AM bike but should u decide to they are good for racing-in my experience .

All mountain bikes are more do it all bikes, slower climbers than XC or trail bikes but better descenders than both of them-trail bikes are technical climbers, theses things are technical descenders and as bomberesque said have between 140-160mm of travel-front and rear-although u can get AM hardtails . And AM bikes are built to be tough and handle abuse!

But I reccomend that if ur starting out on MTB-ing then get a hardtail, because these will teach you skills in handling, climbing and descending that will pay off if/when you decide to get a dually

On that front a couple of bikes you might lie are

Cube bikes-some of the COOLEST looking bikes around-I reckon
Specialized Stumpjumper HT
Kona-dont know their bikes well enough but they're pretty sweet too

But as the others said you have to try the bikes and see what they feel like! no point spending 4500 euro's on a flashy bike that hurts you when u want to ride it

bomberesque

XC/AM I'd say the most obvious difference will be travel; XC 0-100, AM 140-160. XC geometry will always be steep, racier bikes tend to be longer in the cockpit. AM are usually shoter and geometry can vary from XC steep (my personal choice) to DH/FR slack(well, almost) Trail bikes are an inbetween genre often populated by HT and 100mm FS with shorter frames and varying steepness, depending on the makers intensions. It's all marketting guff though, really and there's so much overlap that you need solid product to find proper answers.

4500 Euro is a lot. you have many choices at that level, the world is your proverbial oyster

Mrs B has a 575 and it's sweet. For me I'd categorise it as an all day epic ride bike. If you're light on your kit and don't drop it off too many ledges, I rekon it'll go for as long as you do and handle anything the alps can dish up (except those ledges we taked about ). One thing; Yetis come up big. Mrs B has an XS and I (at 180cm) would probably buy a small so testing is essential before you buy

Rear Lockout from the handlebars is, as far as I know, only available on the Scott bikes (the Ransom...?) atm, as they make their own shocks. Bionicon are another possibility, not too sure. Tbh though, lockout on a mid travel bike will not do much good IMO. Platform shocks are quite good at stiffening up the rear against pedal kickback and you're pretty guaranteed to get a good one at your pricepoint. That said, I have ridden my Kona Stinky uphill in the alps (but slowly...it weighs 20 kg :shock: ) and one thing that struck me is that the last thing I would ever want to do is lock out the rear travel. Climbing in the saddle you really feel the benefit of a superactive suspension system. The only problem is this only works climbing in the saddle. Get up and the bike folds in half :roll: but that's where more modern platform damping systems like the Fox RP23 (on the 575) help out. Plus the Stinky is 170 travel, which is a different prospect all round, really.

For your budget and looking for a mid travel all dayer, my dream bikes would be

• Yeti 575
  Intense Tracer (maybe a bit too much bike. not ridden teh Tracer but the 5.5 was a nice bike)
• Santacruz Nomad
• Ibis Mojo
• Turner 5 spot (not ridden one though)
• Nicolai AM (not ridden this either but they are pretty, from a certain aesthetic)

I've never ridden a canyon bike but you do see them rather a lot round here. I've only ever seen the more racy HT models though

there are many others though. I would probably pick something that you can get from an LBS as these are lightweight bikes and as such, mountain abuse can lead to warranty issues. Ordering from afar means a pain to post stuff back if anything goes wrong.

cgarossi

Speaking from experience here

I have a Scott Scale 50 which is a entry level race bike (around £1k) and a Trek Fuel EX8 which would be classed as AM/Trail rider. Both are fantastic (imo) but the Scott climbs so well! Its in a different leage to the Trek, which is superb on the downhills and fast bumpy trails.

Mickey Eye

XC v AM?

Both.

joshtp

either a long travel (130-140mm) hardtail, or a xc/trail full sus, something with about 120-130 mm travel front and back, and a fairly tough build. not knowing exactly what king of terain you have these would be my best guesses. something like this for hardtail
http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bike/altitude_30
or for less [url=cashhttp://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_512555_langId_-1_categoryId_165499]cashhttp://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/ ... yId_165499[/url]
full sus:
http://www.konaworld.com/09_one20supreme_en.cfm
cheaper full sus:
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... yId_165499

schlange

Thanks Joshtp

I never really thought about Kona but I will add that to the list and see if I can find a test ride somewhere.

I am now considering the following:

Santa Cruz Nomad
Yeti 575
Ibis Mojo
Kona One Supreme

joshtp

schlange wrote:

Thanks Joshtp

I never really thought about Kona but I will add that to the list and see if I can find a test ride somewhere.

I am now considering the following:

Santa Cruz Nomad
Yeti 575
Ibis Mojo
Kona One Supreme

those are four really top "dream" bikes, you will be happy with any one of them
i definately think either the yeti, ibis, or kona would be best, the nomad is a bit of a beast, quite freeridey really. the yeti is a buetiful bike, and very capable, the ibis is another lush bike, beutiful carbon sweetness. and the kona is a shorter travel bike but with some proper punch, and for that reason it would be my choice, it has enough travel to take most anything that you will face, but is light enough to climb really well. it's obviously down to you though! dont discount a long travel HT either, they can be very capable!

Mickey Eye

Switch the Nomad to a BLT and add Intense Tracer VP and Turner 5 Spot to your list.

The Ibis makes me nervous, actually not the Ibis but carbon frames in general. Not because I think they are incapable, they are clearly very capable but because (from riding with people on carbon frames) every stone that hits the frame makes this really solid "thunk" noise that I found really unnerving.

Other bikes you might want to add to your list (bikes that I'm personally considering also) but not so "boutique" as the rest are the Gary Fisher Roscoe 3 and Rocky Mountain Slayer SXC 70.

bomberesque

Mickey Eye wrote:

The Ibis makes me nervous, actually not the Ibis but carbon frames in general. Not because I think they are incapable, they are clearly very capable but because (from riding with people on carbon frames) every stone that hits the frame makes this really solid "thunk" noise that I found really unnerving.

ha ha, I know what you mean, I got an Ibis Tranny a month or so back and, as solid as the bike feels to ride (and it is a *really* solid ride) I'm really nervous that most stuff on the trail is harder than the finish / structure of the frame. Still, I'll either get over it or be driven insane and have to go back to steel

I was drooling over a Mojo at the LBS last night. OUT DAMN SPOT no more new bikes for you this year!

ub40

I was in the same pickle last year (live in Switzerland as well). Ended up buying a Mojo, even though it was way out of my initial budget.

I have no regrets,for me, this is one bike that seems to be able to do it all, it's light enough for long XC rides, the DW suspension climbs well, and the bike handles great in technical sections and downhill. I wouldn't worry about the Carbon Fibre, it holds up just fine, mind , I'm not into big time DH riding. The occasional easy DH sections are all I can handle (I'm no Brian Lopes). Check out the Ibis section in mtbr.

By the way, I didn't buy it from the local dealer, his prices were way too high close to 6000 CHF, I got mine, taxes paid close to 4,500 CHF.

bomberesque

Depending on the spec, Barracuda in Belgium can do you a mojo for around 3300 or so Euros. A bit over the 4500 CHF you paid ub40 but again, really depends on the spec.

schlange

Mickey Eye wrote:

Switch the Nomad to a BLT and add Intense Tracer VP and Turner 5 Spot to your list.

The Ibis makes me nervous, actually not the Ibis but carbon frames in general. Not because I think they are incapable, they are clearly very capable but because (from riding with people on carbon frames) every stone that hits the frame makes this really solid "thunk" noise that I found really unnerving.

Other bikes you might want to add to your list (bikes that I'm personally considering also) but not so "boutique" as the rest are the Gary Fisher Roscoe 3 and Rocky Mountain Slayer SXC 70.[/quote

Why is the BLT better than the Nomad for All Mountain and Tour riding? The Intense Tracer is a great looking bike, but I thought it might be a bit too much and too heavy for general All Mountain (Trail and climbing) riding.

Turner I have not heard of, but I will look them up. :P

Mickey Eye

I was under the impression that the Nomad was a heavier build almost freeride capable bike. The Tracer, 5 Spot and the BLT should all be able to be built up to be lighter than the Nomad.

schlange

bomberesque wrote:

Depending on the spec, Barracuda in Belgium can do you a mojo for around 3300 or so Euros. A bit over the 4500 CHF you paid ub40 but again, really depends on the spec.

Baracuda has some incredibly good prices and a great selection of Frames. Considering I can get 21% VAT back off the prices, it is incredible. I need to find a LBS where I can test ride a few frames and see which geometry feels best for me. I want something suited for longer day rides and more upright - not a race style geometry.

bomberesque

schlange

they have more bikes built up in store that are not listed on their site aswell. I'm terribly tempted by the Intense 5.5 XT build that they have for 2300, or the XTR build for 2800 but Mrs B says no more new bikes for me this year

They will let you bean around the carpark on the instore bikes, of course that means a trip to belgium with no guarantee that you'll find what you want. Shame actually, they had a testing day just 3 weeks ago. :roll:

Fridge-Seal

mmm if it's ur first bike I would get a hardtail-cos' they make you learn handling skills...but if you do want to get a full-suss

Cube Sting Super HPC-Carbon frame, 120mm travel, floating shock, great looks, reasonably priced (for me through CRC at least-I can get the K18 for around AU$4200) good parts spec

Cube Stereo- ALuminium (or carbon frame if you pay enough) 140 mm travel, same floating shock and basic frame design as the Sting Super but built a little more hardcore

Giant Trance X0- Aluminium frame-but Giant does really light Aluminium frame, also good parts spec-but AU$7700

Ibis Mojo SL- as other people said amazing bike, great parts spec, not so great pricing compared to the others (unfortunately)

The Santa Cruz Blur LT-I don't know if this comes under AM or Trail, but it is certainly a light and very capable bike-if you have the money and are willing to wait a bit of time you can get the carbon fibre version-which is coming out soon-and that sounds even more amazing (and light ) It sorta busts the myth that Carbon Fibre is a "weak" or not-as-strong-as-metal-substance, 'cos, from my understanding you can fit any size of forks to it-something you can't do with most metal frames 'cos if u put forks with more travel than the frame is designed to handle then you can damage it.

BMC TrailFox TF01-awesome + light boundary blurring Trail/AM bike-140mm travel front and rear, but sorta costly

Pivot Mach 5 or Pivot Firebird- I don't know if Pivot has a distributer anywhere near where you live, but all their bikes are DW-like equipped- the Mach 5 is a 5-and-a-bit travel trail bike, and the Firebird is a 6-or-so inch travel AM bike with Pivots own take of a floating shock, looks pretty nice

...I wish I had enough money to buy a new bike but I owe my parents ~$400 for a Vietnam trip - those Cube's look amazing I reckon...that's what I'm saving up for next

Whatever u get have fun with it

el loco pollo

XC/AM/Trail etc etc are just marketing terms to make people spend more money. From what you say of the riding you will be doing, I'd recommend something like a Santa Cruz Heckler, Orange 5, Cannondale Prophet, Turner 5 Spot. You could ride 99% of all the riding you'll ever do on bikes like these.

People get too hung up on the minutae of it all - basically if it's great going uphill it will be crap coming downhill and vice versa so you need to compromise - and these bikes do that very well.

I wouldn't listen to the "get a hardtail to learn skills on" brigade, just get a decent full suspension bike.