The Dauphine Libere as form guide
still puzzles me after 25 years following the sport and it being built up as the big TDF form predictor when it's about as good for that as the 4 days of Dunkirk frankly
e.g. http://criterium.ledauphine.com/criteri ... s,3,6.html
e.g. http://criterium.ledauphine.com/criteri ... s,3,6.html
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You could argue that the apparent rise in blood doping has an effect, i.e. now riders who aim to win the Tour need to be extracting blood around the time of the Dauphine to use at the Tour. Vino in 2007 would be the obvious example of this, i.e. flying for a few days then going like a bag of spanners for a few days.0
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andyp wrote:You could argue that the apparent rise in blood doping has an effect, i.e. now riders who aim to win the Tour need to be extracting blood around the time of the Dauphine to use at the Tour. Vino in 2007 would be the obvious example of this, i.e. flying for a few days then going like a bag of spanners for a few days.
true , looking at what kohl is saying..Riis must have been easing right off the EPO at the 96 Dauphine as he was badly dropped...Indurain was right there...am tempted to say the undoped Indurain was not far off the best of the doped...but could be wrong. see Boardman sprinting in behind Indurain...but couldnt hack more than the week-definte proof of EPO use...but hard to know what formula the pros use pre TDF0 -
You need to look at how deep they go versus the result they achieved.
The very hot Dauphine where Armstrong went deep to beat Mayo should have been a sign that he might have gone too hot in the Dauphine, and he almost paid for it in the tour.
When Leipheimer won it he clearly won it without really burrying himself, showing his form had peaked to early, etc, etc.Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0 -
Recently we've seen plenty of examples of riders doing well only to suddenly drop-off in form mid race, usually once the TT stage or first mountain stage is out of the way.
A rider can test themself before draining off some blood. But it doesn't have to be about doping.
Be on form now and there's 6/7 weeks to go until the Ventoux stage of the Tour de France when a contender for the overall in July has to be in the form of their life. Some riders just won't push themselves into the red too much and find themselves stale in July. That said, the Tour this year sees an early time trial and the Pyrenees come quickly so a rider has to be on form for the start.
So for the form guide for July, look to the TT stage and the Ventoux climb and try to spot some new talent emerging but the overall winner isn't going to be the Tour's best rider.0 -
Dave_1 wrote:andyp wrote:You could argue that the apparent rise in blood doping has an effect, i.e. now riders who aim to win the Tour need to be extracting blood around the time of the Dauphine to use at the Tour. Vino in 2007 would be the obvious example of this, i.e. flying for a few days then going like a bag of spanners for a few days.
true , looking at what kohl is saying..Riis must have been easing right off the EPO at the 96 Dauphine as he was badly dropped...Indurain was right there...am tempted to say the undoped Indurain was not far off the best of the doped...but could be wrong. see Boardman sprinting in behind Indurain...but couldnt hack more than the week-definte proof of EPO use...but hard to know what formula the pros use pre TDF
Sorry, are you saying Boardmans performance was proof of EPO use? i assume by the other riders?0 -
camerone wrote:Dave_1 wrote:andyp wrote:You could argue that the apparent rise in blood doping has an effect, i.e. now riders who aim to win the Tour need to be extracting blood around the time of the Dauphine to use at the Tour. Vino in 2007 would be the obvious example of this, i.e. flying for a few days then going like a bag of spanners for a few days.
true , looking at what kohl is saying..Riis must have been easing right off the EPO at the 96 Dauphine as he was badly dropped...Indurain was right there...am tempted to say the undoped Indurain was not far off the best of the doped...but could be wrong. see Boardman sprinting in behind Indurain...but couldnt hack more than the week-definte proof of EPO use...but hard to know what formula the pros use pre TDF
Sorry, are you saying Boardmans performance was proof of EPO use? i assume by the other riders?
I meant definite proof that he-Boardman- was clean...0 -
Dave_1 wrote:camerone wrote:Dave_1 wrote:andyp wrote:You could argue that the apparent rise in blood doping has an effect, i.e. now riders who aim to win the Tour need to be extracting blood around the time of the Dauphine to use at the Tour. Vino in 2007 would be the obvious example of this, i.e. flying for a few days then going like a bag of spanners for a few days.
true , looking at what kohl is saying..Riis must have been easing right off the EPO at the 96 Dauphine as he was badly dropped...Indurain was right there...am tempted to say the undoped Indurain was not far off the best of the doped...but could be wrong. see Boardman sprinting in behind Indurain...but couldnt hack more than the week-definte proof of EPO use...but hard to know what formula the pros use pre TDF
Sorry, are you saying Boardmans performance was proof of EPO use? i assume by the other riders?
I meant definite proof that he-Boardman- was clean...
Definite proof eh? Funny I thought positive tests were definite and anything else hearsay, rumour etc.0 -
andyp wrote:You could argue that the apparent rise in blood doping has an effect, i.e. now riders who aim to win the Tour need to be extracting blood around the time of the Dauphine to use at the Tour. Vino in 2007 would be the obvious example of this, i.e. flying for a few days then going like a bag of spanners for a few days.
Why does it have to be done at 4 weeks before the Tour? Why not do it at the start of the year?
Seems to me it is more likely due to Kleber's explanation - you may not want to go too deep knowing that you still need to hit top form in 6 or 7 weeks time.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
It's just harder to store blood for such a long time, it needs to be very well handled, stored and additives like anti-coagulants, adenine and citrates/phosphates* need to be used. Any hospital with blood banks lucky enough to have anything spare tends to destroy any remaining pouches that are >30/40 days old.
In other words, a blood doper would do exactly as andyp and I have been suggesting, that is they'd try the Dauphine at full gas for a dress rehearsal in the TT stage or a particular mountain effort but then drain off the blood mid-race for storage during a month because they couldn't give blood any earlier. This also means they get a rest for the sake of their form.
Kohl was taking a risk in giving it away so early, in fact I struggle to believe his account of such a premature donation, if true it is insanely risky. Naturally no one would have bothered to explain the risk to the rider, they "doctor" in charge would be rushing to the bank to cash his cheque.
* I'm not a blood doping pro, just spent a short helping a start-up biotech company that look at a technology to make donated blood samples last longer.0 -
Kléber wrote:
* I'm not a blood doping pro, just spent a short helping a start-up biotech company that look at a technology to make donated blood samples last longer.
Liar, your real name is.....0 -
Yes, I'm Floyd. I used to post under "FloydFan" but couldn't keep up the pretence
Besides, most pros wouldn't know any of this, they'd just sit still and give up the blood and hope it goes ok. See the story of Pat Sinkiwitz and how he was given bad blood, the same when Manzano twice fell ill after working with Fuentes. It's not far-fetched to imagine someone will die soon or get a chronic blood infection.0 -
Floyd Mayweather rides bikes, I wouldn't bother messing about on forums if I had your cash to go out and spend. Then again if its good enough for Lance0
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Kléber wrote:Yes, I'm Floyd. I used to post under "FloydFan" but couldn't keep up the pretence
Besides, most pros wouldn't know any of this, they'd just sit still and give up the blood and hope it goes ok. See the story of Pat Sinkiwitz and how he was given bad blood, the same when Manzano twice fell ill after working with Fuentes. It's not far-fetched to imagine someone will die soon or get a chronic blood infection.
Hasn't Ballan had a blood infection this season?
Didn't hamilton fail his initial test because Phonak got his blood mixed up with that of Santi Perez0 -
I was surprised Kohl's accomplice flew with blood in suitcase...surely illegal to transport blood bags on internationl flights assuming the chap did?0
