Woman cyclist injured in lorry collision.

AndyManc

Yet another female biker in a collision with a lorry, this follows the deaths of 5 London cyclists, 4 of whom were female, as the result of collisions with HGV/LGV/lorries so far in 2009.

My theory , woman cyclists are far less likely to waste their time on cycling forums, as we all know , forums offer valuable information and advice.


http://www.southwarknews.co.uk/00,news,15320,185,00.htm



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gb155

Its crazy how many incidents reported are woman and HGV's, All the female commuter I have seen (Not a lot I admit) give the HGV's space and don't left filter, I'm not saying that the woman here was by the way.

prj45

I'm starting to think the link here between HGV deaths and ladies is just plain old misogyny.

I myself have experienced cars cutting close to me to "teach me a lesson" (one guy I challenged about his close pass admitted that's what he'd done, he thought I was riding too far out so purposefully passed me close).

Now I'm not a lady, but are some of these HGV drivers seeing a lady on a bike and thinking "she shouldn't be on a bike on these roads, I'll scare her a bit?" or "I'm not letting a woman slow me down in my big truck" (I'm being serious here).

Cafewanda

prj45, you might have a point there. Although in my limited experience I have, so far, been given room by more HGVs than have cut me up. WVM, taxis on the other hand :roll:

I just love wasting my time on cycling forums. Prevents me doing more useful activities like watching tv, cooking, cleaning, making sarnies for work and, occasionally, eating I have learnt a lot that I try to remember whilst out on the road, although SCR tends to run through my head more often than not

gb155

Checked out youtube this afternoon, The amount of people that left filter vans and large commercial vehicles is scary.

Blonde

May, or may not be relevant, but my (male) partner and I (female) have witnessed on many occasions that I get much more aggression and shouting/things being thrown etc than he does. I am an experienced and proficient cyclist, having done between 8,000 and 10,000 miles a year for the past 5 years, completing long distance audax events up to 600km and taking frequent cycling holidays and sportives, including cycling in the Italian, Swiss and French Alps and a few continental sportives- so I'm certainly not a novice. I also take the primary position on the road where it seems appropriate, but this does not stop the verbal abuse, leery sexually explicit shouting and gestures or the occasionally deliberately aggressive driving behaviour, such as driving too close, pulling into then driving along the cycle lane when I am behind their car, so I cannot get past, or overtaking then pulling in swiftly, forcing me to brake hard or driving me into the kerb etc. Whilst it may be true that some women are too timid and do not ride assertively enough, even when they do, they may be seen more negatively than men are for being assertive and this provokes an aggressive response in some drivers. My partner rides assertively too, yet he very rarely gets shouted out to get off the road or treated as though he is a moron for wanting to overtake a stationary vehicle to use the ASL, turn right or overtake another cyclist etc. He has witnessed the odd disparity in our treatment himself on several occasions, when he has been cycling a little way behind me, so that is has not been clear to others that were were travelling together. I have never been abused when I am cycling right next to him, but when alone it happens nearly every time I go out. I used to think this unpleasant behaviour directed at me was because I am a cyclist, but have since reallised/remembered that is is because I am female. It doesn't happen when I am cycling just behind or alongside my male partner, but only when I am a little way behind/ahead or on my own, and I also get it when I am walking alone as well, not just on the bike! The funniest was last weekend when we went out for a meal with a friend. My friend and I were walking to the restaurant whilst my partner parked the car, he caught up with us just as a group of lads were doing the usual shouty, leery thing (I've never had any idea what they hope to achieve by this) , he took my hand and of course they stopped immediately! I wonder whether women simply experience more aggression or silly driver behaviour than men do (whilst cycling, or just generally), which may explain that statistic.

doog442

prj45 wrote:

I'm starting to think the link here between HGV deaths and ladies is just plain old misogyny.

I myself have experienced cars cutting close to me to "teach me a lesson" (one guy I challenged about his close pass admitted that's what he'd done, he thought I was riding too far out so purposefully passed me close).

Now I'm not a lady, but are some of these HGV drivers seeing a lady on a bike and thinking "she shouldn't be on a bike on these roads, I'll scare her a bit?" or "I'm not letting a woman slow me down in my big truck" (I'm being serious here).

ill scare her a bit and get myself arrested for dangerous/death by dangerous driving in the process :?

what planet are you on...im not a trucker but I have never read such a ridiculous post in my life..and you were serious ffs

prj45

doog442 wrote:

what planet are you on...im not a trucker but I have never read such a ridiculous post in my life..and you were serious ffs

K.

So what's your theory on the apparent misrepresentation of females in incidents involving HGVs?

Gussio

Blonde wrote:

May, or may not be relevant, but my (male) partner and I (female) have witnessed on many occasions that I get much more aggression and shouting/things being thrown etc than he does.

Majority of men are bullies and cowards - much easier to act like a t1t towards a girl on a bike than it is to risk confrontation with a guy. To$$ers.

Anyway, sad to see another accident.

OldSkoolKona

Some good discussion (and another photo of the incident which is shocking) on this earlier thread, half way down (the original thread was initiated by the hit and run fatality in Greenwich)

http://www.bikeradar.com/commuting/foru ... c&start=20

As they say, a picture says a thousand words

doog442

prj45 wrote:

doog442 wrote:

what planet are you on...im not a trucker but I have never read such a ridiculous post in my life..and you were serious ffs

K.

So what's your theory on the apparent misrepresentation of females in incidents involving HGVs?

lack of road sense and appreciation to acknowledge the risk in some riders. :?: who knows

How you can ever suggest that an HGV driver would pick on females is laughable.

I bet you think they are all yorkie eating potential rapists as well

dilemna

Blonde wrote:

May, or may not be relevant, but my (male) partner and I (female) have witnessed on many occasions that I get much more aggression and shouting/things being thrown etc than he does. I am an experienced and proficient cyclist, having done between 8,000 and 10,000 miles a year for the past 5 years, completing long distance audax events up to 600km and taking frequent cycling holidays and sportives, including cycling in the Italian, Swiss and French Alps and a few continental sportives- so I'm certainly not a novice. I also take the primary position on the road where it seems appropriate, but this does not stop the verbal abuse, leery sexually explicit shouting and gestures or the occasionally deliberately aggressive driving behaviour, such as driving too close, pulling into then driving along the cycle lane when I am behind their car, so I cannot get past, or overtaking then pulling in swiftly, forcing me to brake hard or driving me into the kerb etc. Whilst it may be true that some women are too timid and do not ride assertively enough, even when they do, they may be seen more negatively than men are for being assertive and this provokes an aggressive response in some drivers. My partner rides assertively too, yet he very rarely gets shouted out to get off the road or treated as though he is a moron for wanting to overtake a stationary vehicle to use the ASL, turn right or overtake another cyclist etc. He has witnessed the odd disparity in our treatment himself on several occasions, when he has been cycling a little way behind me, so that is has not been clear to others that were were travelling together. I have never been abused when I am cycling right next to him, but when alone it happens nearly every time I go out. I used to think this unpleasant behaviour directed at me was because I am a cyclist, but have since reallised/remembered that is is because I am female. It doesn't happen when I am cycling just behind or alongside my male partner, but only when I am a little way behind/ahead or on my own, and I also get it when I am walking alone as well, not just on the bike! The funniest was last weekend when we went out for a meal with a friend. My friend and I were walking to the restaurant whilst my partner parked the car, he caught up with us just as a group of lads were doing the usual shouty, leery thing (I've never had any idea what they hope to achieve by this) , he took my hand and of course they stopped immediately! I wonder whether women simply experience more aggression or silly driver behaviour than men do (whilst cycling, or just generally), which may explain that statistic.

I am very shocked to read that you, being an experienced female cyclist, are regularly subjected to such abuse and aggressive behaviour by drivers of vehicles typically male I should imagine. It is a sad reflection of the increasing numbers of low intelligence scum in our country. MInd you I read some time ago that our GB girl cyclists also get abuse Rebecca Romero, Vicky P and Cooke have all experienced it even when they have been in Team GB colours. Absolutely unbelievable. If I were you I would dial 999 on your mobile. It's scary enough when it happens if you are a bloke, but it must be doubly scary for a girl :shock: .

My only suggestion is to frequently and I mean frequently every time a vehicle approaches from behind to look over your shoulder 3 or 4 times or if there is a stream of cars passing you look every 10-15 seconds more frequently if necessary if you have particualry hazardous vehicle behind you. Exaggerate your looking as well, at the driver and their number plate. It might be a PITA, but it works and has saved my life on numerous occasions. As already stated drivers are cowards. Once there is no disputing you have clocked them 99.999% give you a mile of space in my experience. Is your partner tall and very well built by any chance? For if he is that is your answer as to why he seldom if ever gets abuse or trouble. Sounds like he is your knight on a white horse. However even gentle giants have been felled by toe rag scum. Danger is out there the whole time. You have to have your wits about you, you can't let your guard drop for 1 second. Could it also be the area you live? Maybe time for a move or emigrate? Britain has definitely gone down hill in the last 5-10 years.

Do you carry a camera and a mobile when you are cycling? On the occasions I have got my camera out most drivers have buggered off or start acting up then bugger off. How about a headcam as Magnatom has done? He posts regularly on youtube as do others. Keep camera attached to the cables infront of the headtube so it is readily at hand if you don't go the head cam route. They are getting better quality all the time and coming down in price.

Safe cycling.

dilemna

doog442 wrote:

prj45 wrote:

I'm starting to think the link here between HGV deaths and ladies is just plain old misogyny.

I myself have experienced cars cutting close to me to "teach me a lesson" (one guy I challenged about his close pass admitted that's what he'd done, he thought I was riding too far out so purposefully passed me close).

Now I'm not a lady, but are some of these HGV drivers seeing a lady on a bike and thinking "she shouldn't be on a bike on these roads, I'll scare her a bit?" or "I'm not letting a woman slow me down in my big truck" (I'm being serious here).

ill scare her a bit and get myself arrested for dangerous/death by dangerous driving in the process :?

what planet are you on...im not a trucker but I have never read such a ridiculous post in my life..and you were serious ffs

doog442 I'm a cyclist and an expericend one. prj45 writes sense although i think with HGV 1 truckers it is not gender specific but is with other HGVs, black cabs, taxis and WVM, it's more a case of "Oh, not another f***ing cyclist in front holding me up! W*****s! I'll pass him/her really close to sh1t them up and make them think twice about cycling. The f***ers shouldn't be on the road any way. None of them pay road tax! Up yours!!"
On the whole I find HGV1 drivers very considerate they have a lot to lose if they collide with you.

And as for a driver buzzing cyclists, being caught and arrested for dangerous driving - don't make me laugh. The police aren't interested. I was passed too close by a traffic cop last week. They don't care.

doog442

dilemna wrote:

doog442 wrote:

prj45 wrote:

I'm starting to think the link here between HGV deaths and ladies is just plain old misogyny.

I myself have experienced cars cutting close to me to "teach me a lesson" (one guy I challenged about his close pass admitted that's what he'd done, he thought I was riding too far out so purposefully passed me close).

Now I'm not a lady, but are some of these HGV drivers seeing a lady on a bike and thinking "she shouldn't be on a bike on these roads, I'll scare her a bit?" or "I'm not letting a woman slow me down in my big truck" (I'm being serious here).

ill scare her a bit and get myself arrested for dangerous/death by dangerous driving in the process :?

what planet are you on...im not a trucker but I have never read such a ridiculous post in my life..and you were serious ffs

doog442 I'm a cyclist and an expericend one. prj45 writes sense although i think with HGV 1 truckers it is not gender specific but is with other HGVs, black cabs, taxis and WVM, it's more a case of "Oh, not another f***ing cyclist in front holding me up! W*****s! I'll pass him/her really close to sh1t them up and make them think twice about cycling. The f***ers shouldn't be on the road any way. None of them pay road tax! Up yours!!"
On the whole I find HGV1 drivers very considerate they have a lot to lose if they collide with you.

And as for a driver buzzing cyclists, being caught and arrested for dangerous driving - don't make me laugh. The police aren't interested. I was passed too close by a traffic cop last week. They don't care.

the subject is about an HGV articulated lorry looking at the photo on the link...i didnt mention anything other, you have introduced taxi drivers and a police vehicle.

georgee

of absolutly no suprise, last week I pulled out to overtake a left indicating 4x4 coming to a left turn, all's fine and keep going.

suddently loud high pich scream to find the girl who i'de over taken a few hundred metres back has tried to undertake the left turning car! fingers crossed that taught her how not to die under a truck but you never know!

Blonde

Yeah, keeping making eye contact with drivers and maing your intentions clear definitlety helps, as does very deliberate, clear signals, and most drivers, esp. HGV drivers are actually quite good - Even those drivers who are not very cyclist aware will respond to lots of eye contact and clear signals. It's the ones who, having seen you, deliberately put you in danger after making what seems a calculated decision to do so that annoy me. Everyone makes mistakes or misjudges your speed and pulls out when they shouldn't, but you can usually tell when it is a deliberate manouvre. Luckily it's only a few who do this but it's scary stuff! Not saying we never get shouted at when we cycle together but it does seem to happen more when I'm on my own. It's not always abusive, merely cheeky, but it's still quite intimidating and potentially dangerous even when blokes lean out of a vans and suddenly shout "wwwwoooooo-hooooooo nice arse! .. or something, as they pass far too close at high speed. I once had a bag of frozen peas thrown at me from a house window, but soft or hot drink throwing from vehicles is a given. I expect they have forgotten all about me as soon as they have gone past though, (the problem with most overtakers who then pull in across you - that's not deliberate in most cases, they just don't think about it) so I try not to fume for the rest of my trip! It is quite amusing when you then pull up to a shouter at lights, as generally they will try to pretend they can't see you, but they pull the window up prettty quickly. If there is a group in the vehicle they might carry on with the gurning and shouting though. :roll: It isn't just men actually, though it does happen far more from men (some old enough to know a lot better as well). Young women will sometimes shout "fat arse!" or some such witicism, but I have to laugh at this as it invariably comes from an obviously overweight, McDonalds-eating teenager!

always_tyred

Blonde wrote:

Young women will sometimes shout "fat ars*!" or some such witicism, but I have to laugh at this as it invariably comes from an obviously overweight, McDonalds-eating teenager!

I've had this, and I'm a bloke. I blame lycra, not my arrse.

jedster

Blonde,

Rather appalled to hear that you get exposed to more aggressive driving as a woman. I'm not surprised by the shouts and wolf-whistle stuff but I thought men would tend to be less inclined to bully women with their driving. Sounds horrible.

You said

HGV drivers are actually quite good - Even those drivers who are not very cyclist aware will respond to lots of eye contact and clear signals.

Must admit that this is my experience, particularly artic drivers (some poorer experiences with rigid tippers, cement trucks, etc.) . I think mostly HGV drivers are conscious that it easy for their mistakes to kill people and control their emotions better.

For that reason, I still think the deaths of women cyclists in London as a result of collisions with HGVs are more likely to be about road positioning decisions than truck drivers consciously taking liberties near female cyclists.

If these deaths were in collisions with cabbies I might take a different view...

BTW - didnt you used to post a fair amount on the "old boards"? Haven't seen many posts from you here. If so welcome back!

J

londonbairn

I see so many people cycling into the City with any lack of respect for bigger vehicles, especially trying to cycle past a left turning car. Today a guy on what looked like a MTB you would probably be able to buy from £4.99 from Halfords right turn in front of a lorry (lorry had right of way) and nearly getting hit.

To me it boils down to people being ignorant and not respecting cars on the road, just taking a little look around to see what is around you and thinking about what they might do etc. Everyday I see people just pulling out without looking assuming the rest of the world will lay a red carpet for them

I also saw a guy on some sort of single tone fashion bike with large over the ear headphones on the road....crazy.

tackleberry

I am not sure how this can add/dteract from this thread, but this latest incident highlights the fact that here in Cumbria we are not immune from motorist inspired carelessness. The enclosed is a link to the report of a fatal collision between a van and a group of female cyclists on a country road near Penrith, one of the riders was killed. Her companions were injured, how seriously it is not clear. Teh driver was arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving.

The family have been very restrained in their response - my thoughts go out to them.

T

http://www.cumberlandnews.co.uk/penrith ... rPath=home

dilemna

Link no work but I'm sure it's shocking.

Hey Jax

I have found that HGV1s tend to give me a wide birth and are quite considerate drivers. Worst are driver of "white vans" and Taxis. they drive way too close.

since reading on this forum about the tragedies that have occured to these women, i have to say it has made me much more wary. I would never dream of undertaking vehicles at junctions, and sometimes don't even nudge up to the front to the ASL anymore, prefering to take prime position in the queue until everyone is off

Crapaud

Hey Jax wrote:

... since reading on this forum about the tragedies that have occured to these women, i have to say it has made much more wary. I would never dream of undertaking vehicles at junctions, and sometimes don't even nudge up to the front to thr ASL anymore, prefering to take prime position in the queue until everyone is off

Wise Hey Jax is wise!

Blonde

I do see a lot of people, (more men that women, but then, I see more male cyclists) undertaking HGVs and busses (even bendy-busses!!!!) at lights or sometimes when the traffic has just come to a standstill. I have actually been "tuttted" on several occasions by a cyclist behind me, because I slowed gradually and eventually stopped at the point where it got a bit narrow and I wouldn't use the cycle lane to undertake any further. I ride fixed, so can't freewheel in a tiny gap between the pavement and stationary vehicle, but even on my geared bike at weekends I don't do this, if it looks as though the traffic is about to move, if the gap is very narrow or if it's a high vehicle. I just feel it is safer to wait a fews moments.

I don't overtake other cyclists on a junction, but will wait for them to move off and get going before doing so. I will not overtake someone when they or I am about to make a turn, but again have been undertaken by other cyclists, who obviously do not intend to stop at the red light, as I have been slowing to stop at that traffic light. A few times I have actually been undertaken (by inches) by a cyclist, as I am actually signalling to take a left turn!!! This happens with motor vehicles too of course. I have been passed by cars, from behind, who failed to stop at the red light that I stopped at. Once I was stood in front of a red light that had been red for a good few minutes when a car came up behind and just roared past, straight though red, I couldn't believe it! They actually had to swerve violently to get past me, as I was in primary position in the ASL!

I think women may possibly be less inclined to take up a primary position and may ride less assertively than men which may cause them to be squeezed by high vehicles, but it's hard to know. I actually see more males taking greater risks on my commute, but then, there are probably slightly more male cyclists anyway so you'd expect that.

jedster

I actually see more males taking greater risks on my commute, but then, there are probably slightly more male cyclists anyway so you'd expect that.

I'd agree with that although I'd say there are more than slightly more male cyclists on my route.

There is a dangerous paradox with the risk thing. I think it is somewhat counterintutitive that you are safer away from the kerb. It feels riskier (until you are an experienced cyclist when it becomes natural and obvious). Men tend to have more risk appetite than women (for good and for ill) and paradoxically this means they are more willing to accept the perceived risk of cycling away for the kerb (which is of course actually safer!). If you see what I mean.