carbon clinchers

BigSpecs
BigSpecs Posts: 309
edited June 2009 in Road buying advice
Hello to all those techies out there (Monty Dog, that's you...) What are your views on Carbon Clincher wheels?

I am keen to get some new wheels to go with my new Ribble Sportive. Being your usual bicycle poseur, the deeper the rims, the better. I have noticed that most carbon rims are tubular specific (in fact I mailed Planet X last week and they are stopping selling their carbon clincher 50 rims due to issues with longevity) Do we agree with carbon clinchers? or are they a bad design idea? I don't race but ride do club runs, TTs, sportives etc.

I fancy the American Classics but need to decide between the alu rim or carbon rim versions. Lastly, I am heavy - 14 st + so need something strong. Would the carbons be up to it?

Any help appreciated,

Col.

Comments

  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Seems to me that you looking to buy RACE wheels and use them daily, which is not the best of ideas. At your weight, I would go for a good set of 32 spokers for daily use. Something that you can depend on day in and day out. And something that can be fixed easily. Save the carbon for racing. Then again, like I've always said, if you've got plenty of money, then go top shelf. :wink:
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    My tuppeneth... Bad design idea. They marry an alloy breaking surface (to prevent loads of punctures from the heat generated by carbon surfaces) with a bonded on carbon fairing.

    From this you get no weight benefit, they're heavier and no stiffness benefit, due to them being two pieces bonded together.

    In fact the only benefit of a good pair of carbon tubular wheels they offer is that they look cool.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • James_London
    James_London Posts: 530
    Full carbon clinchers aren't likely to be a good choice for the scenario you describe. I wouldn't even say they're a good choice for racing, Dennis!

    Pros versus alloy or carbon/alloy deep sections:
    Lighter
    Potentially nicer looking, depending on your preferences!
    Stiffer for a similar design (eg Zipp 303 clincher vs tubular). This only really matters in sprints (ie racing) and sudden accelerations which don't look like a major factor in the riding you describe.

    Pros versus full carbon tubulars:
    You don't need to learn to fit tubulars or deal with them on the road (though once you do it's no more hassle)
    Tubulars are generally more expensive to maintain for a like-for-like tyre

    Cons versus alloy or carbon/alloy deep sections:
    More expensive
    Less durable
    Worse braking performance (especially in the wet)
    Greater risk of rim damage/breakage on a sudden blowout. If your full weight goes on a front carbon clincher rim when you puncture taking a corner on a 70 km/h descent, you and the rim are likely to be toast. This is less of a risk with full carbon tubulars or carbon/alloy rims.

    If you 'have' to have full carbon wheels, get tubulars. Otherwise, if you want deep sections, Zipp 404/808 Clydesdales (303s won't be stiff enough at 88kg), Mavic Cosmic Carbone Premiums, FFWD or perhaps DA 50mm clinchers with alloy brake track are worth considering.

    Reynolds or Edge make some of the better full carbon clinchers but it's still not a great solution for the scenario you describe I'd say...
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    IMO full carbon clincher rims are a bad idea - one puncture and the rim could be toast. A tubeless tyre might be an improvement, but then again, the extra force of a tyre lever could break the rim!
    Wheels with an aluminium rim and carbon fairing like Mavic Cosmics and HED Jets are heavier with a 250-300g penalty and can fill with water in the rain too.
    My own experience of carbon rims is that they are nothing like as strong and reliable as an aluminium rim and aren't really suited to general riding - no matter how good they look unless you have deep pockets! For fast training I'd look at a deep-rim alloy rim and keep carbon wheels for race days only. I would have said AM classics CR420s are OK, not laterally the stiffest - but my freewheel packed on an 18month old wheel 10k into a 240k sportive on Sunday - thank god for Mavic neutral service!
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • BigSpecs
    BigSpecs Posts: 309
    edited June 2009
    Hi Guys,

    Thanks for the replies. So, I was looking at these...

    http://www.rutlandcycling.com/13496/Ame ... l-Set.html

    I guess from the comments that these are carbon farings on alu rims. They do appear heavier when compared to equivalent price alu wheels (Eurus etc.) I guess they are not a good buy and I would be better off with the alu version??

    http://www.rutlandcycling.com/13497/Ame ... l-Set.html

    Have just read Monty's post again and realise that these are the very wheels he was talking about. You must rate them if you have a pair. Are they ok for a heavy-weight like me? Are they better than the equivalent Campag wheel?

    Cheers.
    Col.
  • jordan_217
    jordan_217 Posts: 2,580
    I'm hoping to test ride a pair of AC 420's at Grafham Cycling (Rutland sister store) next week. They apparently used to have a bad rep for hub reliability but the 2009 wheels have hopefully addressed that.

    The staff at Grafham can't speak highly enough about the 420's. They told me to hold off buying Mavic Cosmic Elites or Easton EA90s till I tested them.
    “Training is like fighting with a gorilla. You don’t stop when you’re tired. You stop when the gorilla is tired.”
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    jordan_217 wrote:
    I'm hoping to test ride a pair of AC 420's at Grafham Cycling (Rutland sister store) next week. They apparently used to have a bad rep for hub reliability but the 2009 wheels have hopefully addressed that.

    The staff at Grafham can't speak highly enough about the 420's. They told me to hold off buying Mavic Cosmic Elites or Easton EA90s till I tested them.


    Just to play a bit of devils advocate, I would say that whatever wheels a shop sells,
    they would, of course, "can't speak highly enough about". On that same line most shops
    don't really want to carry wheels that are problematic. Some of the shops around here don't carry certain brands because people have had problems with them and that's the last thing they need. So I pretty much assume that the wheels most shops carry are the
    ones they have the least problems with(at least for them).
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,788
    Personally I wouldn't go for the carbon/alloy AM classics. They are even heavier and more expensive than the Mavic cosmic carbonnes which are, at least, proven to be aero, strong and reliable.
    I've had AM Classic 420s which were great until the (old style) rear hub gave up the ghost. They are pretty aero (especially given their not too deep rim), light and cheap. Since I'm less than 60kg I can't comment on the stiffness, but over two years they remained true and I had no problems, except for the aforementioned hub.
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • jordan_217
    jordan_217 Posts: 2,580
    dennisn wrote:
    jordan_217 wrote:
    I'm hoping to test ride a pair of AC 420's at Grafham Cycling (Rutland sister store) next week. They apparently used to have a bad rep for hub reliability but the 2009 wheels have hopefully addressed that.

    The staff at Grafham can't speak highly enough about the 420's. They told me to hold off buying Mavic Cosmic Elites or Easton EA90s till I tested them.


    Just to play a bit of devils advocate, I would say that whatever wheels a shop sells,
    they would, of course, "can't speak highly enough about". On that same line most shops
    don't really want to carry wheels that are problematic. Some of the shops around here don't carry certain brands because people have had problems with them and that's the last thing they need. So I pretty much assume that the wheels most shops carry are the
    ones they have the least problems with(at least for them).

    Grafham sell both the Easton EA90s and the AC 420's. They initially ordered me the Eastons but told me to hold off until I test the AC 420's. They will both cost the same for me to buy. I'm going to hold on to my cash until I test them both for comparison.
    “Training is like fighting with a gorilla. You don’t stop when you’re tired. You stop when the gorilla is tired.”
  • BigSpecs
    BigSpecs Posts: 309
    Be sure to let us know how you get on Jordan...

    When are they due in?? White or Black?
  • jordan_217
    jordan_217 Posts: 2,580
    I'll be riding them next Saturday, and hopefully they'll be available to buy on the day, or soon after. I'll let you know how I get on.

    I'll be going for the black. The white are very bling but IMO I think they won't look as good after a while. But they do look good......
    “Training is like fighting with a gorilla. You don’t stop when you’re tired. You stop when the gorilla is tired.”
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Just for clarity my AC420s use the new design of hub and the freehub has failed after 18 months - I haven't pulled them apart yet, so yet to find the problem - I'm 65kg and generally don't trash kit. On the plus side they feel perceptably quicker than a shallow rim, particularly at high speeds - if they were reliable, they'd be a great choice, but my judgement is reserved at the moment.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • jordan_217
    jordan_217 Posts: 2,580
    Monty Dog wrote:
    Just for clarity my AC420s use the new design of hub and the freehub has failed after 18 months - I haven't pulled them apart yet, so yet to find the problem - I'm 65kg and generally don't trash kit. On the plus side they feel perceptably quicker than a shallow rim, particularly at high speeds - if they were reliable, they'd be a great choice, but my judgement is reserved at the moment.

    Thanks for that Monty Dog. Please let me know if you discover anything thats significantly worrying. The 420s do have a lot going for them performance wise, but their reliability does make think twice. I've been riding my Mavic Ksyrium Equipes for three years without a single issue. These wheels are to be used for Triathlons, so won't be used on a daily basis but I'd still like to have confidence in there longevity.
    “Training is like fighting with a gorilla. You don’t stop when you’re tired. You stop when the gorilla is tired.”

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