Making Grand Tours more exciting and aggressive

donrhummy

While I thought this year's was a good Giro, it was not an epic one, so here's some ideas I had to increase a race's excitement. My favorite ideas are #3, #4.

1. Give time bonuses for mountains crested 1st/2nd/3rd

2. Give time bonuses on intermediate sprints during the stage

3. Have a split route (say, starting at mile 30) where the riders can choose to go on route A or route B. Route A is shorter but has a tough mountain. Route B is much longer but is relatively flat. (They'd have to work out the usual speeds for both routes to get them pretty close) Then see the riders split up and watch them in split-screen and guess who's going to come in first.

4. Just as the TT is a single-man race, they need to do this for a mountain stage too. So have 1 short mountain stage where each team gets 1 rider only (you can pick anyone on your team) to ride that day and the team gets that guy's time added to their time for the day. This would help limit the control of a race by a strong team.

What does everyone think?

micron

I'd like to see a return to split stages - think the Giro tried one a few years ago and the riders complained so it got dropped (surprise :roll: ) - but that would shake things up a bit.

Some years ago, the Vuelta floated a proposition to start the race with what would effectively be 2 pelotons worth of riders and then, after the first week, get rid of the slowest 50%. Imagine what would have happened in the Giro if they were running that system?

jerry3571

I don't mean say the "D" word again but I'm starting to think that there is a Glass Ceiling to which the riders can dope up to and no more. The levels of Hemoglobin, Testosterone, HGH and others. This gives the riders the same output as natural differences are eliminated making the riders have similar outputs so similar speeds.
Not sure on this theory but most Tours now seems to end up being really close, unlike in the past. Entertaining stuff but a bit odd.
Also, if the riders ever end up dope free then what will be the outcome and what sort of races will we get? Cycling has never been an untainted sport so I wonder what a drug free racing be like.
Cheers Jerry

Tom Butcher

I'd start with the simple things - ban radios would be number 1 on the list - see how that goes first. Agree that it was a good Giro - no need for gimmicks to jazz the racing up - I'd rather strip it back to basics. Having said that if we are going for gimmicks a mountain stage on fixed would be funny!

Anonymous

Keep it simple. No race radios.

knedlicky

I’d take out radios.
I’d introduce pretty short (max 100 km) mountain stages with 2-3 really stiff climbs, so there was less tactical play of holding off until the final climb. I’d have 3 such stages, because if there were only one, riders might just ignore the possibilities such a stage contained.
I’d also include 1-2 really long stages (280-300 km) over moderately hilly terrain where the peloton could be broken into several groups.
I’d always include an equivalent time hill TT for every flat TT included (distance based on anticipated time for each).
I’d considerably increase the time bonuses for placings on the flatter and moderately hilly stages, giving up to 5 mins for the winner on a flat stage, 4 mins 30 secs for second, 4 mins third, etc.

victorponf

The Plataforma Recorridos Ciclistas: En España sí hay montaña (Cycling Routes Asotation: In Spain there are mountains) have written a article about that call EL DECÁLOGO (ten ideas to desing The Vuelta, but i think it´s good for the another GT)

This is the link, almost in english :oops:

http://translate.google.com/translate?p ... ry_state0=

And in spanish

http://plataformarecorridosciclistas.org/decalogo/

SpaceJunk

NapoleonD wrote:

Keep it simple. No race radios.

^ +1

iainf72

Colour me stupid, but why do people think having no radio's will make races any more exciting?

bomberesque

give them sticks

Pokerface

The last 5 riders on each stage should be put to death. And the winner of each stage gets a free doping pass for a year. :P


No race radios would HELP make races more exciting because it would take some of the team tactics out of the mix. Means riders would have to think for themselves instead of being told what to do by the DS.

FJS

Pokerface wrote:

The last 5 riders on each stage should be put to death. And the winner of each stage gets a free doping pass for a year. :P


No race radios would HELP make races more exciting because it would take some of the team tactics out of the mix. Means riders would have to think for themselves instead of being told what to do by the DS.

That is an illusion. Team tactics have existed long before race radios were introduced. And arguably team tactics and hierarchy have decreased in importance over the past decades. If anything, race radios make team tactics more dynamic with less need for in-built caution and strategic safety margins.
Of course we like riders to disobey team orders and just launch crazy attacks. But radios have little to do with that. Whether a directeur shouts in your ear over the radio or from his car window, little difference there.

Riders make the race, the route doesn't. But a GT can be helped with only hills and medium mountains, and short TTs in the first week, slowly building up to more epic mountain stages to increase time differences. This Giro had its first serious mountains way to soon.

mididoctors2

FJS wrote:

[
That is an illusion. Team tactics have existed long before race radios were introduced. And arguably team tactics and hierarchy have decreased in importance over the past decades. If anything, race radios make team tactics more dynamic with less need for in-built caution and strategic safety margins. .

this is correct BUT the speed of response and the lack of safty margins means infiltrating breaks becomes very difficult as the relay of information of who is trying to get away can be analysed by the DS in car and feed back to the riders..

you can see this by the number of breaks that escape these days without the need for a policeman from the GC contenders.

dangerous breaks are rarely allowed to form and/or easily shut down very early

even getting team mates up the road is problamatic.. the radios increase efficencey of counter efforts and discourage bold moves.

"they never work mentality" is the new status quo.

exceptions are becoming fewer and fewer... even one day racing is getting reduced to "do it all on the final climb"

voigt at the Crit is best exception I can think of this yr so far

to be fair rider fitness is generally more equal than ever before, so the margins are less...

which is even a bigger reason for the (re)introduction of technical skill and tactical nouse

thou i can see controversey if radios are banned .... some break goes and a well placed GC contender claims he never knew. (millar etc)

I think they should have the radios but no two-way communication to the DS.. race radio only.

if the GC riders forget Pavlov maximus from swisspharmacy team bionica is only at 6 mins on GC then the ensuing panic can often open the race up

teagar

Pantani was pretty exciting to watch in GCs. So was Ricco. So was Iban Mayo. So was Vino. Landis' ridiculous breakaway was exciting too.


Oh, wait....

mididoctors2

teagar wrote:

Pantani was pretty exciting to watch in GCs. So was Ricco. So was Iban Mayo. So was Vino. Landis' ridiculous breakaway was exciting too.


Oh, wait....

this point has problems because you have to demonstrate the current tight but somewhat static racing is the result of a cleaner peloton..

which it may well be. I really wouldn't like to say.

teagar

mididoctors2 wrote:

teagar wrote:

Pantani was pretty exciting to watch in GCs. So was Ricco. So was Iban Mayo. So was Vino. Landis' ridiculous breakaway was exciting too.


Oh, wait....

this point has problems because you have to demonstrate the current tight but somewhat static racing is the result of a cleaner peloton..

which it may well be. I really wouldn't like to say.

Take a look at the tour of Langkawi. That's at a really high altitude so the racing is basically much tougher, and it's like riding with even less red blood cells then normal. As a result, riders can make one or two attacks tops before they're spent.



The racing there is more tight than ever.

iainf72

teagar wrote:

Take a look at the tour of Langkawi. That's at a really high altitude so the racing is basically much tougher, and it's like riding with even less red blood cells then normal. As a result, riders can make one or two attacks tops before they're spent.

Wot? TdL is mostly at sea level. The 2 high points in this years race were 450m (odd) and 1600m to Genting Highlands.

It's also early season for the few pro teams.

mididoctors2

teagar wrote:

mididoctors2 wrote:

teagar wrote:

Pantani was pretty exciting to watch in GCs. So was Ricco. So was Iban Mayo. So was Vino. Landis' ridiculous breakaway was exciting too.


Oh, wait....

this point has problems because you have to demonstrate the current tight but somewhat static racing is the result of a cleaner peloton..

which it may well be. I really wouldn't like to say.

Take a look at the tour of Langkawi. That's at a really high altitude so the racing is basically much tougher, and it's like riding with even less red blood cells then normal. As a result, riders can make one or two attacks tops before they're spent.



The racing there is more tight than ever.

not the strongest field ever assembled at Langkawi..and the gaps are quite substantial IIRC at the GTN highlands? no?

not saying your wrong its just the jury is out for me than tighter racing=less dopage

I just don't know

I suspect that the greater equality is actually the ubiquitous implementation of scientific training principals ,,irrespective of whether they are centrifuged up or not

lets say it is cleaner/clean and this has equalised the field... do we just get used to a different style of racing and accept it?

maybe it is what it is. its just something more subtle? is that your position?

Pokerface

It's a little hard for the DS to lean out the car and yell tactics to a rider - when he's in the middle of the peleton. It's all fine and dandy if a rider is on a break and the car can pull up beside him.

Team tactics have always existed - but the instant relay of info between riders and team car these days change those tactics. A DS can tell a rider to chase a break at any time or tell his riders how far in front that break is, etc.

There are many, many ways in which the use of radios changes the face of the race - or forces the riders to think differently.

squired

The key to exciting racing, for me, is the route. One thing the Giro has been excellent at in recent years is to add difficulties at the end of stages. In the Tour de France, for example, you get a succession of stage finishes on long flat roads. The Giro mixes it up with tricky short sharp climbs, which encourage riders to have a go.

Mountain stages are obviously the key in grand tours. There is no point in having mountains separated by large distances in the valley. Look at Alpe D'Huez. No-one goes before it as they know they will be chased down in the valley before the base of the climb. Also, mountain stages early in a race don't seem to be massively effective.

Smaller teams would help reduce the control that can be exerted, while also allowing additional teams in the race.

Spawn of Cabbie

When the backpass rule was introduced in football there was widespread outrage. How ridiculous etc, etc.

Turned out it was an excellent rule change.

They could ban radios and radios/TVs in the DS car and see what happens. They can always reintroduce it.

teagar

mididoctors2 wrote:

teagar wrote:

mididoctors2 wrote:

teagar wrote:

Pantani was pretty exciting to watch in GCs. So was Ricco. So was Iban Mayo. So was Vino. Landis' ridiculous breakaway was exciting too.


Oh, wait....

this point has problems because you have to demonstrate the current tight but somewhat static racing is the result of a cleaner peloton..

which it may well be. I really wouldn't like to say.

Take a look at the tour of Langkawi. That's at a really high altitude so the racing is basically much tougher, and it's like riding with even less red blood cells then normal. As a result, riders can make one or two attacks tops before they're spent.



The racing there is more tight than ever.

not the strongest field ever assembled at Langkawi..and the gaps are quite substantial IIRC at the GTN highlands? no?

not saying your wrong its just the jury is out for me than tighter racing=less dopage

I just don't know

I suspect that the greater equality is actually the ubiquitous implementation of scientific training principals ,,irrespective of whether they are centrifuged up or not

lets say it is cleaner/clean and this has equalised the field... do we just get used to a different style of racing and accept it?

maybe it is what it is. its just something more subtle? is that your position?

I recon without doping you can't get top GC riders who are willing to expend energy in a way to win excitingly.

I am of the opinion that the kind of accelerations that Pantani, Mayo could produce three or four times on the final climb of a big mountain can only be realistically done with doping.

I thought the final climb of that really hot Giro stage where Sastre won his first Giro stage was a good case in point. Maybe one or two BIG attacks, the other attacks didn't shake it up enough.

It's not the time gaps i'm talking about, it's the unbelivable and exciting racing.

Riders are increasingly aware that just ONE big attack that sets them free is the most efficient way to do it. No-one tries to yo-yo them to death anymore Not even Di-Luca tried doing that regularly.

Not saying I approve of doping by the way, but I do think that it makes for more exciting racing.

cougie

They have banned radios in the French Champs this season. Lets see how that goes ?

I like the smaller team idea - that could work.

mididoctors2

cougie wrote:

They have banned radios in the French Champs this season. Lets see how that goes ?

I like the smaller team idea - that could work.

what sort of size for a GT? 7 maybe?

mididoctors2

double post

edit

donrhummy

iainf72 wrote:

Colour me stupid, but why do people think having no radio's will make races any more exciting?

+1

Anyone ever read the old articles about Anquetil? He/his team were criticized for making the races boring because they so strongly controlled the race and wouldn't allow any major breakaways, and controlled the pace. Hmmmm....sound like anyone from the race-radio era?

skavanagh.bikeradar

Get rid of race radios, reduce the size of teams.

I'm not sure about 'bonifications' though. I prefer the Tour without them personally.

I think the organisers also need to think about the parcours a bit more than they have - racing has changed, tactics have changed, fitness has changed. I'm not sure what the changes to the route might involved. Perhaps more hilly stages that wear the riders down before you hit the mountains? Less flat TT km's? A final TT on the final day of the race?

I like the idea proposed above of shorter more climbing filled mountain stages might be hard to plan the routes though and it increases the lilkihood of long transfers on a 3 week tour. Also the TT in the Giro being lumpy and a bit technical helped make it more interesting. Sending the route along new roads and up new climbs might help too - sacrifice some classic climbs in order to make the stages more unpredictable and possibly create new stories.

I'm sure in terms of route there are some innovations to be had like the gravelly, steep, mountain TT that the Giro used last year. Or a route that finishes on a steep hill that does several laps to wear the riders down and encourage breaks? Or routes made up of loops in hiily terrain that give spectators a reward for standing at the roadside.

cycleNoodle

Just ditch all radios and any communication with the team directors, scrap wheel and bike changes and make them ride with no support like the old days, then we would see who the real cyclists are!

victorponf

Decalogue, I know i´m so bored and boring

1 .- Looking for the widest audience.

Cycling is a sport that occurred during the competitions are organized by teams, not even by an association that pools or by a federation to which they belong, with few exceptions.

Furthermore organizers or among teams and their income by selling tickets or charging membership dues (there is some isolated case), so they are financed almost exclusively through sponsors that their money out only if the expected return on advertising investment to do. De ahí que sea fundamental la retransmisión de las carreras, procurando alcanzar la máxima audiencia posible. Hence, it is crucial relay races, trying to reach the widest audience possible.

The following sections of this decalogue try to develop this idea stating that such measures can be taken to increase the audience of broadcast television, but in any case will always be advisable to provide all sorts of facilities to the operator of television stations and relay race as well meet your suggestions.

In fact, in Spanish television have long been claiming that the last half hour of each stage is more harsh than the last port, just for the excitement and the audience are kept high throughout the broadcast and not limited to the last 10km.

They also claim that the most selective take place on the weekend, go to the hearing and to make it easier to broadcast more hours. O to be created by repeating myths that have worked late brilliantly, because the good memories also generate excitement from long before the start of the race, while it is very difficult to sell to the public what has not worked before.

Another is the insistent claim to innovate, to different sites, varying formulas.

Ultimately, the aim is to attract the audience, make the fans dreams, looking forward to the beginning of each broadcast, which is attached to the race from the beginning, they can offer an interesting spectator sport and that do not feel disappointed.

Pokerface

Shorter TT's would surely keep things tighter? The longer the TT - the more likely that someone who specializes in it can move up the GC.


People seem to complain that Grand Tours are won and lost in TTs more and more.

phil s

I think the riders should be forced to drink four cans of Tennents Super before each stage. That would make it more aggressive and unpredictable.