The best MTB! What dlo you think?
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Fine, I'll mix it up - the FSR was the best design ever, and is the best for the UK
:twisted:
Aaaaaand I get flamed off the forum... Boo-yah mofo
Sick to the power of rad
Fix it 'till it's broke0 -
In terms of suspension design I think the dw-link is about as good as it gets. On the bikes I've tested I couldn't feel any squat under pedalling but still got decent feedback from the pedals. Shame that the bikes were too pricey for me (Turner five spot and Pivot Mach 5).
The current Trek design is also pretty good, I haven't felt any brake jack and have never seemed to run out of travel (it ramps up pretty well) - one of the reasons I bought the Ex 8. It does benefit from pro-pedal though (never turned that on with the dw-link).
I sometimes wonder if Specialized stick with the FSR design partly due to patent protection. Don't get me wrong, I think it's pretty good, I just wonder why they haven't publicly experimented with some kind of virtual pivot design.
Caveat: I'm not an engineer, I can only communicate what I feel from my backside and feet. I also can't claim to have ridden every bike under the sun.0 -
Yes, the DW link is excellent in its execution, and DW explains it well.
FSR is actually a virtual pivot system - though the VP hardly moves from its starting position. If a VP pivot is projected into the same place as a it would be on a single pivot, then both bikes will behave exactly the same under pedalling, accelration and pedal kickback. They vary in how braking forces affect them due to the instant centre position of the 4 bar/VP.
DW, and Santa Cruz VPP have the VP move quite a bit to tailor the sus through the wheel travel. Early VPP didn't seem to do it very well though.0 -
:oops:
I guess you got my gist, even if I didn't get the words right.0 -
Ha, I went a bit nerdy there!
Thing with Spesh (and many others) they claim things that their sus simply doesn't do.0 -
supersonic wrote:Ha, I went a bit nerdy there!
Certainly nowt wrong with that
I embrace my inner geek 0 -
supersonic wrote:Ha, I went a bit nerdy there!
Thing with Spesh (and many others) they claim things that their sus simply doesn't do.
Do they though? I thought they'd said the FSR was bob free as well, my FSR XC was so bobby I was a bit baffled so went to find the quote. I don't know if they have actually said that or if it's general media/magazine rubbish.0 -
My view is that the execution is more important than the methodology.
A mate of mine was testing a Bionicon Golden Willow which correct me if I'm wrong is essentially an FSR/Horst Link.
It had this crazy brake jack going on where even pedalling along at 5mph and grabbing the rear brake would cause it to jack up by about an inch! (I won't even go into how buggy and flakey the whole travel adjust system was) My WIfe's Spesh Myka FSR doesn't do this, or at east isn't noticeable to the same extent. Same system - one works, the other sucks.
I didn't ride the thing myself but based on the fact that he's usually duelling with me pretty evenly, he was clearly having a torrid time on it and was well behind.
I know the fundamental flaws and problems with SP but bikes like the Five, Prophet, Rush, Heckler, Superlight have been made and perfected over such a long period of time that they're as near as dammit perfect - or as perfect as a SP bike can be. Reading a lot of reviews, DW-Link is clearly the next big thing, but these reviews also concur that no one's really getting it spot on yet. The Turner is looking promising though!
Clearly Orange are getting wiff of people finally getting to grips with these new systems as they've jumped on board the Meta's contact system already with the ST4 (and they've done it better IMO) and they've started putting linkages in the 22X and new Patriot prototypes. Clearly they'll wait till people get to grips with it and then they'll probably go and perfect it and clean up for another 5 years! LOL0 -
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the dw turners are a bit ify looking but are said to be the biz. i cant see how they can have the same model name if the suspension is completely different. should have called the new dw models various incarnations of sheepsteeth.
zero, isnt brake jack normally an attribute of SP designs? it may well be becasue im such a slow rider but i never noticed anything of the sort on my old bionicon (rip) and i still think the bionicon travel system is the best in the business, shame they are such fugly bikes is my only criticism, oh, and the rear pivot is a bushing and not a bearing. not good enough in my opinion on a bike of that price.0 -
sheepsteeth
Well it does 'technically' happen on the Five but nothing more a slight firming up - but the Five is so controlled and composed under braking that it's never something you notice - this Bionicon was actually rising up back into the sag which looked frankly terrifying as it's essentially steepening the head angle severely (considering the fork would then compress more as well)
The same guy demoed an Ironwood (looks like a Orange rip off lol) and loved it! So he had high hopes for the Golden Willow. He normally rides a Meta btw.0 -
the back wheel was leaving the ground?!?! blimey. glad i never noticed!!0
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Googling about, there seems to be references to brake jack both in terms of squat and rise - the Golden will clearly rose...
I need to go and ride my five and see if it does either as I can't say I've really noticed it.
(Starting to get this dorky over suspension is a dark and dangerous road guys, maybe we should get back to just mindless brand slagging?)0 -
He He to intelectual a stimulation for you? pah orange owners
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The only difference I can see if the first bike has more expensive shaped tubing on it's swingarm, the second one is using a girder.
What do I win?0 -
Actually, it looks more like a single pivot older style Meta than it does a Five!!
Ok, here's one... what do this bikes have in common?
They're both good on tarmac.. boom boom 0 -
haha, on the contrary, i rode mine on the road and it was slooooooow, mind i was trying to keep up with my mate on his road bike.
that top one's a good looking thing though.............................0 -
zero303 wrote:Actually, it looks more like a single pivot older style Meta than it does a Five!!
Indeed both have black swingarms, they're a spitting image of each other! Well aside from the completely different pivot position, shock design and linkages. :P
Noo, I've got drawn in!0 -
fight fight fight!!!0
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i found a picture of the orange factory's carpark:
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Toasty, the swing arm is closer to the old Meta one, and look at the tube profiling, the little seat gusset?
Not a spot of monocoque in sight!
Besides, I believe I'm the only one here to have ridden the Five, Meta AND Stumpy and therefore the only one that can make a judgement on all three.
To be fair, I have a lot of Kudos for my riding buddy now, how he keeps up with me on that god awful Meta I don't know. :P0 -
apparently they just bolt the front triangle to those two big buggers (by hand of course) then raid the spares bin for the rest of the components.0
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zero303 wrote:Besides, I believe I'm the only one here to have ridden the Five, Meta AND Stumpy and therefore the only one that can make a judgement on all three.
Ah, you say that but then so have I, infact we have 2 of those in our house right now (the wife has an '09 Stumpy Elite), up until about last year I was a massive Spesh fanboy and have owned 3 over the years! Played on other systems too, Trance's Maestro system, a Bionicon Golden Willow*, a VPP on a Blur LT2 (which was lovely).
*which I hated truth be known
the two extremes were far too extreme for my liking, I also felt jacked around while riding it. Such a shame, it was really light considering all the voodoo magic going on under the hood. 0 -
zero303 wrote:Toasty, the swing arm is closer to the old Meta one, and look at the tube profiling, the little seat gusset?
Besides, no it's not. I bet you could fit that Saracen one on the Orange 5 with a bit of fiddling. The shock and pivot positions are virtually the same. Seat gusset? Does this have a lot of bearing on modern suspension designs? :P
Both the Orange and the Saracen have pedals (with reflectors), the Commencal has none. Surely that would change the ride feel a lot more than a seat gusset!0 -
Toasty wrote:supersonic wrote:Ha, I went a bit nerdy there!
Thing with Spesh (and many others) they claim things that their sus simply doesn't do.
Do they though? I thought they'd said the FSR was bob free as well, my FSR XC was so bobby I was a bit baffled so went to find the quote. I don't know if they have actually said that or if it's general media/magazine rubbish.
Yes, they say all the chain torque drives the bike forward, and not up and down. Which is rubbish. Also is fully active - which it isn't.0 -
supersonic wrote:Yes, they say all the chain torque drives the bike forward, and not up and down. Which is rubbish. Also is fully active - which it isn't.
Well I guess indirectly it does, much like it does on all push bikes :P How ever hard I pedal I only go forward, never up!
Man, those old designs were rubbish.0 -
They have altered what they say slightlty, as it used to be 'totally unaffected by chain forces and braking' (the sus that is) 'remaining 100% active.'0
