Kohl press conference on Monday
Comments
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I just hope Kohl is wrong about everyone at the top doping. I'd say the evidence is not quite clear either way at the moment.0
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A few things on Kohl and the blood passport: it wasn't in operation when he was caught - they were still in the process of the year long collection of samples to form the baseline standard for each individual athlete, and also for cyclists in general allowing them to construct algorithms to asses probability of doping for possible future legal action/sanctions. That invalidates any of his comments regarding "the BP doesn't work".
Why did Silence-Lotto get the results? As far as I'm aware all teams get the results/profiles for their own riders and can also request those they're hiring. This acces to the profiles was part of the logic for CSC no longer paying Damsgaard to perform his own tests on their athletes. All the teams have had to cough up for the passport, and the UCI does the testing and analysis. The increased funding from the teams this season has allowed the UCI to double the number of tests this year. CSC now pay Damsgaard to do his own analysis of the profiles produced by the UCI - a double check/early warning system if you will.
Kleber and andyp are right - McQuaid should have shut up on the Passport these last few months and let Gripper do all the talking. It's clear that the problem they have is the legal niceties on this. The definition of doping to satisfy a court. If that is sorted we'll see the first cases brought forward. No doubt many of those caught in the CERA debacle were on the highly suspicious list.
In the meantime is the passport worthless? No. It's building a bank of stored samples to allow retrospective testing, and also allows target testing of those whose profiles are suspicious but cannot yet be charged until the legal side of prosecuting BP failures was been made watertight.
Does Kohl doping invalidate the results of Sastre and Evans in the Tour? No, it's not a leap of logic that can be taken with any safety. Doping + average cyclist does not always mean they're automatically better than the top clean cyclists. And as has been shown scientifically, doping effects vary considerably from individual to individual, benefitting some far more than others. There's no straight line on the graph.
Kohl has now admitted systematic doping since he was a junior - do we have a true baseline for his non-doped abaility to really compare to the others?0 -
Check out McQ's comments on the matter on L'equipe.
Or non-comments.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
If Kohl was thought to be so squeaky-clean beforehand then why were his samples retested? Did they just do the guys at the top again regardless of what they thought or did they target suspect results? I thought they were targetting suspect results but maybe im wrong/they werent. Were the Tour tests included in the UCI blood passport as there was a bit of a stand-off i remember. Also, from what i can remember Kohl's performances before the Tour werent up to much so maybe whatever doping he was doing wasnt enough to really show up?
Just a few thoughts.0 -
I love how we have a guy who was there, who doped continuously, telling us how it happens and hinting at the deeper goings-on, but we, clueless forum dwellers, act like we know more than he does.
Ah, the internets... :roll:0 -
Well, no one knows it all, Kohl included. He's changed his story so often even he must have trouble keeping up with himself. Now he's saying all riders have to dope to compete, try telling this to Dan Martin or to Phillipe Gilbert. He's still coming up with self-justification, he may well think that you have to dope to compete but that's because he's never known it otherwise, he's been taking banned substances for as long as he's held an elite licence.drenkrom wrote:I love how we have a guy who was there, who doped continuously, telling us how it happens and hinting at the deeper goings-on, but we, clueless forum dwellers, act like we know more than he does.
Ah, the internets... :roll:0 -
drenkrom wrote:I love how we have a guy who was there, who doped continuously, telling us how it happens and hinting at the deeper goings-on, but we, clueless forum dwellers, act like we know more than he does.
Ah, the internets... :roll:
How dare you. Are you suggesting that internet message boards are a home for uniformed speculation. I don't buy that.
Some of the posters on here, despite having absolutely no connection to pro cycling, have in depth knowledge of the doping programs of most top pros. They know what happens on the team buses. They know more than the rider's wives.
How can you not consider everything posted here as gospel truth.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:drenkrom wrote:I love how we have a guy who was there, who doped continuously, telling us how it happens and hinting at the deeper goings-on, but we, clueless forum dwellers, act like we know more than he does.
Ah, the internets... :roll:
How dare you. Are you suggesting that internet message boards are a home for uniformed speculation. I don't buy that.
Some of the posters on here, despite having absolutely no connection to pro cycling, have in depth knowledge of the doping programs of most top pros. They know what happens on the team buses. They know more than the rider's wives.
How can you not consider everything posted here as gospel truth.
+1 at least I think so. Well maybe.0 -
I love how we have i guy that changes his story as much as he changes his underwear and just because his come out and said everyones doing it. Geez wouldnt be trying to make himself look a little better there would ya. Same excuse 2 year old use, and hardly surprising he drops SL in it seeing as they dropped him as soon as there was even a whiff on something not quite right going on.Take care of the luxuries and the necessites will take care of themselves.0
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andyp wrote:
I'm interested in how you arrive at the 'habitual liar' conclusion? It seems to me that he got caught and did the usual response of giving away as little as possible so if he did decide to return to the sport he'd be welcome having served his time and kept quiet.SpaceJunk wrote:I take everything that Kohl states these days with a pinch of salt. The guy borders on being a habitual liar when it comes to doping.
Next week he'll probably state that his mum use to take HGH so he could dope whilst being breast feed.
I think there is a difference between withholding facts (i.e. giving away as little as possible) and changing your story (from "only starting to take it at Dauphine because I'd feared for my future after my crash there" to (after a couple of different other versions), "I've been doping since Adam was in nappies").
Hence my conclusion. I'm not calling Kohl a liar about his new comments quoted in this forum topic - I just take them with a pinch of salt.0 -
So Milram have pulled their doctor based on Kohl's comments.
Gotta love Voigt's statements
Team Saxo Bank's Voigt hit out at Kohl for damaging innocent people's reputations while excusing his shortcomings.
"It's always the same. They sit there and pout and blame it all on the 'bad system'," Voigt said. "Why doesn't Kohl just say 'I was egotistical and wanted to take the short cut to fame, big money, fast cars and big houses'. With his generalizations he has also hit a lot of innocent people."
Yeah, all right Jens :roll:Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:So Milram have pulled their doctor based on Kohl's comments.
Gotta love Voigt's statements
Team Saxo Bank's Voigt hit out at Kohl for damaging innocent people's reputations while excusing his shortcomings.
"It's always the same. They sit there and pout and blame it all on the 'bad system'," Voigt said. "Why doesn't Kohl just say 'I was egotistical and wanted to take the short cut to fame, big money, fast cars and big houses'. With his generalizations he has also hit a lot of innocent people."
Yeah, all right Jens :roll:
Couple o' points Ian...
1) Voigt really has to say that, given he's one of the leaders of the riders union.
2) He probably IS hitting a lot of innocent people by saying you have to dope to compete at the highest level. Although, disappointingly, I haven't heard anyone credible come out and say "He's wrong, I'm doing it properly""In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Im begining not to care about doping, if you have enough money you can buy competitive training advantage, better coaches, power meters, training camps etc ultimately its a very small step to buy improved recovery or more efficient blood.
Note im not talking about the "rules" or wether its "right" or not but just logical progression. The drive to win can be very strong and the perspective that us forum users have may very well be completely different to those of a professional athlete. My understanding is that sportives are not without there share of people prepared to prepare for a gold standard either.
Kohl has been caught breaking the rules and he should shut up and accept the fate he knew was waiting should he be caught. Voight is right, Kohl is harming a lot of people that may well not be doping and stoking up a doping debate that has been burning for years that damages the sport.
Is cycling any worse than any other proffesional sport? Possibly but the airtime it gets is out of proportion to the problem. In fact in the UK (and on this part of the forum) doping and insinuation gets more space than the sport itself. Perhaps its time we stopped feeding the monster and started concentrating more on the sport. Let the race organisers and the good national bodies deal withe health and safety. We can spit on the accused once announced.0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:2) He probably IS hitting a lot of innocent people by saying you have to dope to compete at the highest level. Although, disappointingly, I haven't heard anyone credible come out and say "He's wrong, I'm doing it properly"
I'd say it's largely irrelevant why Kohl did it. Voigt should be mortified that he sailed through so many doping tests AND got the all clear from doctors.
Remember, the French figured out they needed to target test him based on very little data.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Was Kohl targeted or just tested because he was in a jersey?
They got him when they went back and re-tested the samples they had for Mircera. So if he'd just stuck with the transfusions, even those brilliant French wouldn't have got him.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:Was Kohl targeted or just tested because he was in a jersey?
They got him when they went back and re-tested the samples they had for Mircera. So if he'd just stuck with the transfusions, even those brilliant French wouldn't have got him.
Targetted. Especially with the blood test.
And yes, you're right about the transfusions.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
The Austrian police have now got in contact with the Rabobank team as part of their investigations into the Viennese Humanplasma clinic. "We've assured them of our full cooperation" said team spokesman Luuc Eisenga.
We'll see what happens next but the prospect of another big team being investigated is not good, it's another Sword of Damocles dangling over the sport. Even if the team are cleared it brings a cloud to things until this happens. If there are links then the outcome will be appalling.
But several have said Fuentes was just one of several offering blood doping services, the prospect of more Puerto-style investigations and legal wranglings for years to come should not surprise people.0 -
Kléber wrote:The Austrian police have now got in contact with the Rabobank team as part of their investigations into the Viennese Humanplasma clinic. "We've assured them of our full cooperation" said team spokesman Luuc Eisenga.
We'll see what happens next but the prospect of another big team being investigated is not good, it's another Sword of Damocles dangling over the sport. Even if the team are cleared it brings a cloud to things until this happens. If there are links then the outcome will be appalling.
But several have said Fuentes was just one of several offering blood doping services, the prospect of more Puerto-style investigations and legal wranglings for years to come should not surprise people.
Not surprise or please people, its incredibly tiresome and yet necessary I guess0 -
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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iainf72 wrote:
"The UCI rejects recent statements by Bernhard Kohl, but does not wish to react publicly"... they say IN A FRICKIN' PRESS RELEASE.
Isn't there a UCI presidential election coming up this year? My vote goes to Jon Stewart, cos he'd fit in nicely.0 -
Kléber wrote:The Austrian police have now got in contact with the Rabobank team as part of their investigations into the Viennese Humanplasma clinic. "We've assured them of our full cooperation" said team spokesman Luuc Eisenga.
I've just read that Menchov has said "I am calm"
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
afx237vi wrote:iainf72 wrote:
"The UCI rejects recent statements by Bernhard Kohl, but does not wish to react publicly"... they say IN A FRICKIN' PRESS RELEASE.
Isn't there a UCI presidential election coming up this year? My vote goes to Jon Stewart, cos he'd fit in nicely.
Well, there is always the chance that they won't say anything publicly simply because
it might play into Kohl's hands. You know, lawyers and all that crap. Got to be careful what you say.0 -
dennisn wrote:afx237vi wrote:iainf72 wrote:
"The UCI rejects recent statements by Bernhard Kohl, but does not wish to react publicly"... they say IN A FRICKIN' PRESS RELEASE.
Isn't there a UCI presidential election coming up this year? My vote goes to Jon Stewart, cos he'd fit in nicely.
Well, there is always the chance that they won't say anything publicly simply because
it might play into Kohl's hands. You know, lawyers and all that crap. Got to be careful what you say.
Yep, I think that's a good calculated assumption there Dennis. And lets be honest, the UCI has so little creibility in the eyes of many people in the cycling community, that regardless of what they do say, it'll still be wrong.0 -
SpaceJunk wrote:Yep, I think that's a good calculated assumption there Dennis. And lets be honest, the UCI has so little creibility in the eyes of many people in the cycling community, that regardless of what they do say, it'll still be wrong.
Maybe if they said less and did more they would have a little more credibility.0 -
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I've just read that Menchov has said "I am calm"
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He said Jehovah, stone him 0 -
You sem to be overlooking the point that a Press Release is a public statement... :roll:dennisn wrote:Well, there is always the chance that they won't say anything publicly simply because it might play into Kohl's hands. You know, lawyers and all that crap. Got to be careful what you say.0 -
aurelio wrote:
You sem to be overlooking the point that a Press Release is a public statement... :roll:dennisn wrote:Well, there is always the chance that they won't say anything publicly simply because it might play into Kohl's hands. You know, lawyers and all that crap. Got to be careful what you say.
I'll grant you that. I was referring to the somewhat standard practice of "no comment".
Which is a smart idea because "anything you(or they) say, can and WILL be used
against you". So either side not saying much doesn't really surprise me. Sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut. Of course, I have never really learned that valuable life lesson. Always spouting off. But you knew that.
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From the UCI statement:
''The analyses of riders’ profiles, which during recent months have indicated a certain number of anomalies and confirmed the results of several traditional anti-doping controls, have now reached the final stage and will very soon allow disciplinary proceedings to be initiated. ''
This should be interesting.0 -
Today's Giro stage was boring.
I SUUUUUUUCK at Photoshop. Although I'm looking forward to finding out who Scrooge McDuck is.0 -
afx237vi wrote:Today's Giro stage was boring.
I SUUUUUUUCK at Photoshop. Although I'm looking forward to finding out who Scrooge McDuck is.
Would be funny if it was Millar. Well he is Scottish. Sort of.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0
