Little Basso article

iainf72

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/sport ... ss&emc=rss

Bit of a comment from Ashenden too.

Kléber

Ironically I think the NY Times article is possibly an example of media coverage of cycling inspired by Armstrong, the Texan's comeback probably got the journo dispatched to the race. Ironic because the last few paragraphs compare Basso's transparency and fulfilled promises to Armstrong's bluff and spin.

The comparison with Millar is valid too, both probably gave less than straight answers about their doping but came back with promises to do it clean.

GroupOfOne MkII

Interesting comment by Ashenden there, seems full of praise for Ivan.

iainf72

GroupOfOne MkII wrote:

Interesting comment by Ashenden there, seems full of praise for Ivan.

It's especially telling as he's the man who said "Damsgaards system proves nothing"

Kléber

The Damsgaard system is nothing. I'm still waiting for him and Astana to publish the results of their 2008 testing programme, promised but never delivered.

dirk_van_gently

Interesting that Basso has chosen a trainer who also trains skiers.
weren't XC skiers the first to be cited as using EPO ?

stagehopper

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

Interesting that Basso has chosen a trainer who also trains skiers.
weren't XC skiers the first to be cited as using EPO ?

EPO (and derivatives) use has been rife in XC skiing with the aforementioned Daamsgard brought in to try and sort out the mess.

Maybe Basso should have taken on a cycling trainer instead, as there's no associating with EPO use in the sport ....

Thought Aldo Sassi's long association with Cadel Evans would be more relevant when discussing Basso's choice of trainer, given the prevailing view that the Aussie Wheelsucker is seen as a clean rider.

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iainf72

phips wrote:

Interesting jump of HCT from 41 to 47 around the beginning of April/early May. I wonder if he was dehydrated? That's quite a leap in red blood cell concentration isn't it?

(Edit: I should probably say I was looking at his blood stats on the Mapei website )

3 weeks at altitude.

I expect Sassi and Ashenden know when they're looking at something which isn't right. HCT is too much of a blunt instrument.

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deejay

iainf72 wrote:

3 weeks at altitude.

That reminds me of Pantani

and
The Ski XC....I know the Swedes and Germans failed tests but I missed Italians. Did they ???

iainf72

deejay wrote:

The Ski XC....I know the Swedes and Germans failed tests but I missed Italians. Did they ???

Sassi's reputation is not one associated with doping.

I know we're all amateur haematologists but I'd expect Sassi or Ashenden would identify suspect HCT fluctuations.

I think one of the tests Sassi uses is the one they think will be used to spot transfusions in the future.

timoid.

I really would love him to be clean. Truly. I'm cheering him on more in hope than belief that he's telling the truth.

afx237vi

You know it's a truly screwed situation when Basso appears to be one of the most trustworthy riders in the race.

DaveyL

Ivan can come back as clean as you like, but as long as he sticks with that "I was only planning to dope" story, he will always have zero credibility.

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

Ivan can come back as clean as you like, but as long as he sticks with that "I was only planning to dope" story, he will always have zero credibility.

Surely if he's doing it clean now, and someone like Ashenden says you couldn't do more to demonstrate it, that's providing a level of credibility.

I know that attempted doping thing really irks you but at the end of the day, he wanted to come back, he knows how the game works. He said enough that he would get a ban and still be able to return at the highest level. If he'd told the whole truth, would CSC and Riis's team exist now? And who would hire him after that?

Small steps and all that.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Ivan can come back as clean as you like, but as long as he sticks with that "I was only planning to dope" story, he will always have zero credibility.

Surely if he's doing it clean now, and someone like Ashenden says you couldn't do more to demonstrate it, that's providing a level of credibility.

I know that attempted doping thing really irks you but at the end of the day, he wanted to come back, he knows how the game works. He said enough that he would get a ban and still be able to return at the highest level. If he'd told the whole truth, would CSC and Riis's team exist now? And who would hire him after that?

Small steps and all that.

but Iain, that was your issue with David Millar ...didn't you say roughly...be quiet or tell the whole truth? Am more willing to believe Millar did parts of his career clean and that Basso did not...but then again, 53x12 analysis suggest Basso is not so far off 2006 form, so maybe he was more a force of nature than doping, like Armstrong

iainf72

Dave_1 wrote:

but Iain, that was your issue with David Millar ...didn't you say roughly...be quiet or tell the whole truth? Am more willing to believe Millar did parts of his career clean and that Basso did not...but then again, 53x12 analysis suggest Basso is not so far off 2006 form, so maybe he was more a force of nature than doping, like Armstrong

I'm playing devils advocate a bit with Millar.To me, Basso and Millar are the same. But they're both trying to do it properly now and that should be applauded.

What I can't figure out with Basso is that there was loads of blood in Madrid. Assuming he used some for the Giro how much did he have stashed?

Kléber

Enough for the Tour de France. He'd need plenty, we're talking for the prologue and fresh infusions for every mountain stage and TT. That's probably 6-8 litres of "packed cells".

DaveyL

Difference between Basso and Millar is that Millar at least admitted to taking PEDs. He could easily have done a Basso and said he thought about doping then chickened out at the last minute but kept the syringes as a "reminder".

Basso's riding clean now? Brilliant, but it seems like Ivan thinks that if he can prove he's riding clean now, and riding well, it will somehow exonerate him and prove he was clean before his ban. Well, he ain't winning this Giro by 9 minutes with his mouth closed on the climbs.

The guy seems to want redemption/forgiveness/credibility. Well, Ivan, you could start by telling the truth about what you got up to with Dr F.

timoid.

The difference betweeen Millar and Basso is that Millar is very preachy about other riders in the peloton, whereas Basso is just looking at doing the right thing himself. Or appears to be at any rate.

SpaceJunk

Do you know what I find funny about Basso - and no doubt I'm looking too far into this - ?

When Basso was at his "best", he used to have a fairly good poker face. You could tell he was on his limit, but he seemed 'robotic'.

At this year's Giro, as soon as Basso even goes up a Cat 2 climb he grimaces like crazy.

I actually wonder if he is putting this on a bit. I get the impression that he is screwing his face up to say, 'hey, this is hard work therefore I must be clean'.

And if he is not putting it on, you gotta to assume he was on something back in 05 - he just looked a different rider.

As I said, probably looking into too much; but I still find it hard to trust him for 'thinking about doping'.

dave_1

I notice Armstrong doesn't wear the oakleys on the summit finish, nor does Basso...allowing people to see it is hurting...IMO they know this helps show they are not robots..as for Millar...no comparison, Milalr should have denied it IMO like Basso did

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

but Iain, that was your issue with David Millar ...didn't you say roughly...be quiet or tell the whole truth? Am more willing to believe Millar did parts of his career clean and that Basso did not...but then again, 53x12 analysis suggest Basso is not so far off 2006 form, so maybe he was more a force of nature than doping, like Armstrong

I'm playing devils advocate a bit with Millar.To me, Basso and Millar are the same. But they're both trying to do it properly now and that should be applauded.

What I can't figure out with Basso is that there was loads of blood in Madrid. Assuming he used some for the Giro how much did he have stashed?

Fair enough....but Christian VDV, and JV-Garmin, you also got a little tough on them at times as they speak about doping now...of course they have skeletons I guess...if they came clean would Disco-Astana exist...would many riders have had a the chance of racing as pros-maybe not...sorry to say it but "small steps and all that" must be applied equally

dave_1

Timoid. wrote:

The difference betweeen Millar and Basso is that Millar is very preachy about other riders in the peloton, whereas Basso is just looking at doing the right thing himself. Or appears to be at any rate.

he can't win really..don't preach and be accused of Omerta, preach and you will say he only admitted part of his past not all...you and Iainf were quite firm on this view a year back...the reactions of the likes of yourselves make me think differently about Millar..he should have kept quiet and kept his titles as the farce now is Rodgers and Hamilton have his two biggest wins

dirk_van_gently

DaveyL wrote:

....chickened out at the last minute but kept the syringes as a "reminder".
.

That's funny, bit like the quitting smoker who keeps a pack of cigarettes around "just in case"

dave_1

Basso highly complimentary about Lance's return to the Giro...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2009/ ... =basso0908

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

Ironically I think the NY Times article is possibly an example of media coverage of cycling inspired by Armstrong, the Texan's comeback probably got the journo dispatched to the race. Ironic because the last few paragraphs compare Basso's transparency and fulfilled promises to Armstrong's bluff and spin.

Curiously, Osama has now posted more meaningless data

http://community2.livestrong.com/ver1.0 ... 0.Full.jpg