Italy v United Kingdom (industry)
nicensleazy
Posts: 2,310
Having lived and worked in Italy, I have got to say, I am completely taken with the country. From the great food to the fantasic design of road cycles ETC. Tavelling Italy, you can't help but enjoy regional food and traditions. However, when you compare Italy to the UK, the Italians still have an industry. If you just think about it, they have a vehicle industry, motorcycle production, clothing, fashion, food, wine, shipping, coffee industry, cycle industry and a very profitable oil industry with Agip. I could go on. Then I think to myself, what do we have in the UK? What has happend to Great British industry? Makes me feel very sad! 
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Shame they don't have much of a quality control industry.I've heard many stories about assembled items from Italy.
Motorbike coming into the UK with no oil, loose bolts etc.
I can overlook that though with the eye candy they produce.0 -
Urmm.... difficult that one? We have:nicensleazy wrote:Then I think to myself, what do we have in the UK? What has happend to Great British industry? Makes me feel very sad.
Call centres with great customer services? Great public transport? A Government that listens? Law & Order? A great Education System? A great NHS? and don't forget the great british weather!
As someone who's father was born in Sicily, and having been to Italy & Sicily several times I agree. I do love this country but there are many things wrong with it. And IMO the main problem, is a lack of family morals. Kids do what they like, parents don't care. Material things are more important than happiness etc, etc."I spend my petrol money on Bikes, Beer, Pizza, and Donuts "
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38256268@N04/3517156549/0 -
I can just visualise , some middle aged fat Italian man, drinking some red wine saying: Donta worrya about it!!Wappygixer wrote:Shame they don't have much of a quality control industry.I've heard many stories about assembled items from Italy.
Motorbike coming into the UK with no oil, loose bolts etc"I spend my petrol money on Bikes, Beer, Pizza, and Donuts "
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38256268@N04/3517156549/0 -
zedders wrote:
I can just visualise , some middle aged fat Italian man, drinking some red wine saying: Donta worrya about it!!Wappygixer wrote:Shame they don't have much of a quality control industry.I've heard many stories about assembled items from Italy.
Motorbike coming into the UK with no oil, loose bolts etc
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And Fiat are going to take control of GM Europe. HELP!To err is human, but to make a real balls up takes a super computer.0
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nicensleazy wrote:If you just think about it, they have a vehicle industry, motorcycle production, clothing, fashion, food, wine, shipping, coffee industry, cycle industry and a very profitable oil industry with Agip. I could go on. Then I think to myself, what do we have in the UK? What has happend to Great British industry? Makes me feel very sad!
vehicle industries have to be bailed out by government once every 20 yrs, we got rid of ours a while ago,
British fashion designers are some of the best in the world, companies use our talented designers to make plenty of consumer goods, Ipod was designed by a Brit, we produce plenty of quality food, cider, ales,
plenty of small quality engineering companies across the UK, we virtually run F1, vehicle technology research
heard of BP?
75% of our GDP is from the service industry, so that we have a work force with transferable skills that can adapt to economic changes, (one problem is that only want to sell debt, but that will slowly change),
Britain isn't that bad0 -
Just a personal take on it. Our manufacturing base has been destroyed by a combination of firstly trade unions became to big for their boots. This gave Thatcher the ammo to wage a terrible campaign of destruction against the manufacturing base.
I work for an aero engine manufacturer and being a multi-national they get parts manufactured all over the world, The parts I make are being put out on sub-con to firms who have no experience what-so-ever of making these parts and havent the expertise either. But my employer just don't want to make these assemlies any more.
I can't believe it myself.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Who cares who produces what! As long as they're made in the place which is most efficient and free trade exists I don't care.Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0
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teagar wrote:Who cares who produces what! As long as they're made in the place which is most efficient and free trade exists I don't care.
I don't know about you but, when I'm 38.000ft in the air I'd like to think the people who made the engines of the aircraft had some idea of what they're doing. It's not like it's a bike frame, where catastrophic failure will generally only result in injury to one person , and even then probably not fatally.
But hey, who cares, as long as it's cheap.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Can't be that bad, or else they wouldn't be producing them! How well do you know the new people who are working on it? Maybe they do know what they're doing - or at least enough not to make a duff product.
Making engines that break quickly isn't efficient anyway, so I stand by my statement!Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0 -
teagar wrote:Who cares who produces what! As long as they're made in the place which is most efficient and free trade exists I don't care.
Because you numpty as we spend more money overseas than we sell the nation's wealth is gradually being eroded. Things were fine when we were in a financial bubble making illusory profits, but now that's taken a big backward step our economy would be in a better place if it actually made products rather than just answered the phone. F1 is its own little bubble which, whilst very nice for a realtively small number of people and all that, doesnt exactly make up for all the other general engineering capability that's been lost over the last 30 years
Supposedly "Great" Britiain has become dependent on the manufacturing capabilities of the rest of the world (including Italy) and as for the transferrable skills of the service sector... yes transferable all the way to to Mumbai where its a lot cheaper to pay someone to answer the phone than Newcastle / edinburgh / Cardifff etc.
We're still at the thin end of the wedge of this recession and there will be plenty more people in the service sector as well as what's left of manufacturing industry losing their jobs before this is over. Maybe then you will have a bit more of a think about whether or not it matters to you and your family where things get made0 -
Frank the tank wrote:teagar wrote:Who cares who produces what! As long as they're made in the place which is most efficient and free trade exists I don't care.
I don't know about you but, when I'm 38.000ft in the air I'd like to think the people who made the engines of the aircraft had some idea of what they're doing. It's not like it's a bike frame, where catastrophic failure will generally only result in injury to one person , and even then probably not fatally.
But hey, who cares, as long as it's cheap.
surely the parts are designed by your company, the subbies have to produce them to a standard and spec, otherwise they don't get paid,
experience in engineering/manufacturing is an odd one, there is probably only one company that has experience in making the part you are talking about, and that is your company, so to say only an experienced company is allowed to make something is just pointless,0 -
The point is they've never made a single one yet and haven't the capability to make the part from scratch they have neither technology or the know how. It's just the fact my employer no longer wants to manufacture the parts.
BTW, an aero engine should not break at all.
The best way to make sure it doesn't is stick by those with the expertise and know how.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Slow1972 wrote:teagar wrote:Who cares who produces what! As long as they're made in the place which is most efficient and free trade exists I don't care.
Because you numpty as we spend more money overseas than we sell the nation's wealth is gradually being eroded. Things were fine when we were in a financial bubble making illusory profits, but now that's taken a big backward step our economy would be in a better place if it actually made products rather than just answered the phone. F1 is its own little bubble which, whilst very nice for a realtively small number of people and all that, doesnt exactly make up for all the other general engineering capability that's been lost over the last 30 years
Supposedly "Great" Britiain has become dependent on the manufacturing capabilities of the rest of the world (including Italy) and as for the transferrable skills of the service sector... yes transferable all the way to to Mumbai where its a lot cheaper to pay someone to answer the phone than Newcastle / edinburgh / Cardifff etc.
We're still at the thin end of the wedge of this recession and there will be plenty more people in the service sector as well as what's left of manufacturing industry losing their jobs before this is over. Maybe then you will have a bit more of a think about whether or not it matters to you and your family where things get made
I see you're not quite familiar with basic economics.
The gains of specialisation are obvious. I don't need to insult you by explaining those.
Similarly, talking about international trade, it is a given that protectionism, which is exactly what you're suggesting (buy British..), was what turned the global recession of the late '20s early '30s into a global depression. It simply doesn't work, because you don't get specialisation.
Go learn some basic economics before you lecture me.
What's wrong with a call centre in Mumbai anyway? They're people too.
And I assume your "we" isn't refering to me?! :xNote: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0 -
In reply to amt27. I''m not dodging your point but this is a public forum and I'm not prepared to put my employment at further risk by commenting too much on your post.
But I'll just say this and no more as reguards sub-con and my employers.
You don't know the half of it.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Slow1972 wrote:general engineering ...........
service sector... yes transferable all the way to to Mumbai where its a lot cheaper to pay someone to answer the phone than Newcastle / edinburgh / Cardifff etc.e
what do you mean by general engineering? sitting on a production line bolting parts to a car is not engineering, nor is welding a frame together, engineering is technology and science, which we sell to the world as well as buy from the world,
adding value generates wealth, making something cheap abroad creates more wealth,
service industry isn't just call centres, its financial services (yes there is some of this left), creative industries, news and media, IT, business services, tourism, etc,0 -
Hey don't mis-quote me!Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0
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amt27 wrote:nicensleazy wrote:If you just think about it, they have a vehicle industry, motorcycle production, clothing, fashion, food, wine, shipping, coffee industry, cycle industry and a very profitable oil industry with Agip. I could go on. Then I think to myself, what do we have in the UK? What has happend to Great British industry? Makes me feel very sad!
vehicle industries have to be bailed out by government once every 20 yrs, we got rid of ours a while ago,
British fashion designers are some of the best in the world, companies use our talented designers to make plenty of consumer goods, Ipod was designed by a Brit, we produce plenty of quality food, cider, ales,
plenty of small quality engineering companies across the UK, we virtually run F1, vehicle technology research
heard of BP?
75% of our GDP is from the service industry, so that we have a work force with transferable skills that can adapt to economic changes, (one problem is that only want to sell debt, but that will slowly change),
Britain isn't that bad
Some good points raised there. But for a country that started the industrial revolution, we are in a sorry state.
When we import more than we export. The government would rather award contracts to overseas companies for ship building etc, its very sad.
You mention service industry....................so I guess most of the young people will be working in fast food outlets. I'm really sorry to say this, but I think the UK has gone down the toilet and out in the North Sea.0 -
nicensleazy wrote:You mention service industry....................so I guess most of the young people will be working in fast food outlets. I'm really sorry to say this, but I think the UK has gone down the toilet and out in the North Sea.
see above or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Sector on service industry, its not just McDs and phone monkeys0 -
nicensleazy wrote:amt27 wrote:nicensleazy wrote:If you just think about it, they have a vehicle industry, motorcycle production, clothing, fashion, food, wine, shipping, coffee industry, cycle industry and a very profitable oil industry with Agip. I could go on. Then I think to myself, what do we have in the UK? What has happend to Great British industry? Makes me feel very sad!
vehicle industries have to be bailed out by government once every 20 yrs, we got rid of ours a while ago,
British fashion designers are some of the best in the world, companies use our talented designers to make plenty of consumer goods, Ipod was designed by a Brit, we produce plenty of quality food, cider, ales,
plenty of small quality engineering companies across the UK, we virtually run F1, vehicle technology research
heard of BP?
75% of our GDP is from the service industry, so that we have a work force with transferable skills that can adapt to economic changes, (one problem is that only want to sell debt, but that will slowly change),
Britain isn't that bad
Some good points raised there. But for a country that started the industrial revolution, we are in a sorry state.
When we import more than we export. The government would rather award contracts to overseas companies for ship building etc, its very sad.
You mention service industry....................so I guess most of the young people will be working in fast food outlets. I'm really sorry to say this, but I think the UK has gone down the toilet and out in the North Sea.
If the gov't didn't buy oversea's they'd be castigated for wasting taxpayers money, since it'd be more expensive. If everyone buys products from the most efficient place, EVERYONE benefits. That's how economics works!
I think he meant the professional service industry. Lawyers, accoutancy, etc. Not working in Maccy D.Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0 -
W5454 wrote:teagar wrote:
What's wrong with a call centre in Mumbai anyway? They're people too.
But they can't speak English and are only employed by cheapskate companies because they're cheap.
Last Mumbai call centre I had they spoke English very well.
Not sure what the cheapskatishness of the company has anything to do with it.Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0 -
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Italy's government is a bit screwed up - being led by the man who owns the media and is a bit too far right for this day and age. I mean, our government takes the piss with expenses, but at least it isn't a legal-media-executive monopoly.0
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Good luck trying to persuade anyone with a bacground in economics that Italys economy is inherently stronger and more resilient than the UK's.
It's interesting that a lot of people (especially in Wales and the North) seem to struggle with the concept of having a service driven economy. Also with regard to imports sending our wealth out of the country- actually imports are good in 2 respects.
Other countries are often much more efficient at making things than we are (try paying a brit 50p an hour to make something!)
And imports are a great deflationary tool in the economy. Inflation is something Britain has struggled with historically and imports (as they are in effect contracting money supply) limit the effects of it. unless of course you get into the interesting realm of import driven inflation but thats a different issue.
As an aside FYI- Most export dependant economies, like germany, are actually contracting a lot faster and more substantially than the UK with it;s service driven economy. Have a look at the figures recently published by the IMF for negative growth in 2009, and forecasts for the end of the year."I hold it true, what'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost;
Than never to have loved at all."
Alfred Tennyson0 -
Agree with the above. Mourning the loss of industry is totally understandable but I think that we should be more worried at loosing the service industry on which we now rely. Just look at the state of the City or outsourcing to overseas call centres or accountants for example. The Service sector is by no means guaranteed as the example below indicates.
Tourism is now the worlds largest industry and is of professional interest to me. The government has been cutting back on tourism spending year after year. Other countires (including Italy) promote themselves better and taking our share of the 'cultural' tourism market. We should be promoting ourselves more heavily; with the current exchange rate we could actually be very attractive to the EU market right know. The Government has aready lost us millions by lack of investment. The Tourism Alliance (made up of figures from industry & academia) recently submitted this report to the Lords - see below. I've included just the introduction and conclusion as it was a bit long...
"Tourism Briefing
8th May 2009
1. State of the Industry
The story of tourism in the UK is one of missed opportunity. The industry has been successful and has grown but this growth has been well below the world average and all metrics indicate a significant level of underperformance. For example:
In 1997, the UK tourism trade deficit stood at £4.8bn – in 2008 it stood at £20bn. That is £15bn in revenue and 300,000 potential jobs lost overseas.
In 1997, expenditure by overseas visitors stood at £12.2bn – in 2008 it had £16bn. A rise of only 31% over 11 years while the world average growth was 54%. If the UK had met the global average we would have over £5bn more per annum coming into the economy and have over 120,000 more jobs.
In 1997, domestic tourism stood at £25bn – in 2008 it stood at £20bn, a 20% fall before even considering inflation over that period
In 1997, the UK’s share of global tourism receipts was 5.6% - in 2008 it was 3.6%, a fall of 36% in the UK global market share.
Significantly, this underperformance is mirrored by the Government’s failure to invest in the sector over this period. In 1997, DCMS’s predecessor invested £35.5m on marketing the UK overseas. This year DCMS will spend around £32m on overseas marketing (a drop of 10% before inflation) and next year plan to spend just £29m ( a drop of 18% before inflation).
In real terms the Government’s commitment to inbound tourism has dropped by over 50% since it was first elected in 1997. Over the same period, DCMS’s total budget has increased by 65% showing that it is will, rather than resources, that has reduced the Department’s expenditure on tourism.
Conclusion
The recent Deloitte report “The Economic Case for the Visitor Economy” highlights the importance of the tourism sector to UK economy – a direct and indirect impact of £114bn per annum (8.2% of GDP) and providing 2.65m jobs (8.4% of the total UK workforce). It is also the UK’s third largest source of export earnings (£19bn per annum) and Deloittes forecast that the sector will grow by 65% (to £188bn) over the next 10 years provided that it is properly managed.
However, the industry has serious doubts as to whether this forecast will be able to be realised. Over the past 12 years the Government has continually fails to take tourism seriously and the lack of support has seriously retarded potential growth.
Tourism represents one of the few sectors of the economy that is well-placed to provide much needed economic growth. There is a wealth of evidence to show that funding allocated to both inbound and domestic marketing provides a very large, and very fast, return on investment to both the economy and the Exchequer. With the low value of the pound, the growing propensity for UK residents to consider a holiday at home to save money and the 2012 Olympics on the horizon, there is a very real opportunity for the sector to provide a key component in the Government’s plans to increase GDP by 1.25% next year and 3.5% in 2011.
The Government can either continue to make spurious claims that it supporting tourism and squander this opportunity or it can take tourism seriously by developing and implementing a strategy that reduces the regulatory burden, removes barriers to overseas visitors and provides the seed funding required for the National Tourist Boards to successfully compete in the global market."
If you have made it this far - well done!
Cheers,
Passout.'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.0 -
my google-fu is weak, but I seem to recall that more people are employed in the UK manufacturing industry than are employed in finance (the last figures I saw were ifor 2008)0
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zedders wrote:
I can just visualise , some middle aged fat Italian man, drinking some red wine saying: Donta worrya about it!!Wappygixer wrote:Shame they don't have much of a quality control industry.I've heard many stories about assembled items from Italy.
Motorbike coming into the UK with no oil, loose bolts etc
And isn't that a great attitude to have..........He might have a red wine problem, but he won't get hammered on a friday night or be on anti-depressants!!!0 -
Frank the tank wrote:In reply to amt27. I''m not dodging your point but this is a public forum and I'm not prepared to put my employment at further risk by commenting too much on your post.
But I'll just say this and no more as reguards sub-con and my employers.
You don't know the half of it.
Well, Frank, just keep working. You're contributing to my pension
Just remember, they're still the best aero-engines in the world. Probably even better now I've retired
It was great when I had a job at your end. They paid me to ride my bike/trike to meetings. You can't do better than that, can you?
GeoffOld cyclists never die; they just fit smaller chainrings ... and pedal faster0 -
`Italian' quotes from the (cycling) film, Breaking Away:
Moocher: [watching the college kids on campus] Sure look like they've got it made.
Mike: That's because they're rich.
Dave: Italians are poor, but they're happy.
Mike: Yeah? Maybe in Italy.
--
Cyril: Hey! Are you really gonna shave your legs?
Dave: Certo! All the Italians do it.
Mike: Ah. Some country. The women don't shave theirs.
---
Dad: What is this?
Mom: It's sauteed zucchini.
Dad: It's I-tey food. I don't want no I-tey food.
Mom: It's not. I got it at the A&P. It's like... squash.
Dad: I know I-tey food when I hear it! It's all them "eenie" foods... zucchini... and linguini... and fettuccine. I want some American food, dammit! I want French fries!
---
Moocher: Hey, come on in, Dave.
Dave: Nah, I read where this Italian coach said its no good to go swimmin' right after a race.
Mike: Who's swimmin'? I'm takin' a leak.0
