Valv.Piti - 2 year ban
Comments
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He's said he'll appeal.
For me the questions are whether the UCI extend this and how will his sponsor react, does he get sacked? Frees up some Euros to hire another Spaniard.0 -
Or for them to take their euros elsewhere....Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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All the Luis Leon Sanchez fans will be happy.0
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Regardless of what you think about his guilt or innocence, the fact that he could clear his name (if not guilty) by providing a DNA sample to compare with kinda screams GUILTY.
If you DO want to clear your name and your truly ARE innocent - wouldn't you do whatever you could to prove it?0 -
I bet Basso finally feels some justice has been served. Appealling to CAS is the obvious next step, they won't increase the ban and if the evidence isn't watertight then Valv. Piti may get off completely or a shorter ban.
I wonder who's next in Torri's cross hairs?0 -
Pokerface wrote:Regardless of what you think about his guilt or innocence, the fact that he could clear his name (if not guilty) by providing a DNA sample to compare with kinda screams GUILTY.
?
Who should he have provided a DNA sample to? This case is so complicated it's not that cut and dried.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:Pokerface wrote:Regardless of what you think about his guilt or innocence, the fact that he could clear his name (if not guilty) by providing a DNA sample to compare with kinda screams GUILTY.
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Who should he have provided a DNA sample to? This case is so complicated it's not that cut and dried.
Oh - please explain. It seems there are several governing bodies from his own Federation up to WADA or the UCI that he could provide a sample to. The least of which would have been CONI who have now suspended him from riding in Italy.
Providing a sample to any one of these bodies would have cleared his name. Eventually. If he was innocent.0 -
Pokerface wrote:
Oh - please explain. It seems there are several governing bodies from his own Federation up to WADA or the UCI that he could provide a sample to. The least of which would have been CONI who have now suspended him from riding in Italy.
The UCI and WADA had no access to the evidence. CONI got it because they're a legal entity and can work with the Spanish legal system. The "must give DNA sample" is a smoke screen. The UCI has loads of Valverde's blood.
The DNA thing is a sideshow in the shambles of Puerto.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Shame,0
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iainf72 wrote:Pokerface wrote:
Oh - please explain. It seems there are several governing bodies from his own Federation up to WADA or the UCI that he could provide a sample to. The least of which would have been CONI who have now suspended him from riding in Italy.
The UCI and WADA had no access to the evidence. CONI got it because they're a legal entity and can work with the Spanish legal system. The "must give DNA sample" is a smoke screen. The UCI has loads of Valverde's blood.
The DNA thing is a sideshow in the shambles of Puerto.
Right. So doesn't that just go to further prove that he's guilty? If the UCI and possibly various other people have his blood - and none of them are coming forward to his defence....0 -
Pokerface wrote:iainf72 wrote:Pokerface wrote:
Oh - please explain. It seems there are several governing bodies from his own Federation up to WADA or the UCI that he could provide a sample to. The least of which would have been CONI who have now suspended him from riding in Italy.
The UCI and WADA had no access to the evidence. CONI got it because they're a legal entity and can work with the Spanish legal system. The "must give DNA sample" is a smoke screen. The UCI has loads of Valverde's blood.
The DNA thing is a sideshow in the shambles of Puerto.
Right. So doesn't that just go to further prove that he's guilty? If the UCI and possibly various other people have his blood - and none of them are coming forward to his defence....
But the UCI doesn't have the blood from Fuentes' lab, so they can't compare it. Only CONI has that.0 -
afx237vi wrote:
But the UCI doesn't have the blood from Fuentes' lab, so they can't compare it. Only CONI has that.
So, just so am I clear here - if he wanted to clear his name he could provide a DNA sample to CONI to compare with the Valv piti bag they have. But instead he doesn't show up for his hearing and launches various lawsuits against them.
Naw - that doesn't scream 'guilty' at all.
Thing is - they already HAVE his DNA and the bag. SO what's the issue? Or isn't there one...
EDIT - it seems the Valverde objects on the grounds that CONI can't rule on a Spanish rider. He is saying that they don't have the 'juice' to ban him as it's a matter for Spanish courts. Or something like that. And in the same breath denies all wrongdoing.0 -
Pokerface wrote:
Naw - that doesn't scream 'guilty' at all.
Thing is - they already HAVE his DNA and the bag. SO what's the issue? Or isn't there one...
I don't think CONI ever asked him for his DNA. They had it from last year so they used it.
All I was saying was he couldn't have just handed over his DNA and sorted it all out.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Is he denying doing it, or just denying that CONI have any right to try him ?
If just the latter, that surely is a tacit admission ?0 -
He is claiming he's innocent but the noise from his lawyers today largely concerns procedural and jurisdictional arguments, that the case has been badly handled, documents not treated correctly and that CONI can't have a say over a Spaniard.0
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I just knew when I heard the news that Iain would be first to post it on here. I have a mental picture of you knitting crone-like at the feet of the guillotine Iain. You must spend all day surfing the net for bad news!
If it's true it's a shame 'cos he's an exciting rider.
Perhaps the boffins on here could explain if blood deteroates (sorry can't spell tonight) if not stored properly? 'Google can bring back a hundred thousand answers. A librarian can bring you back the right one.'
Neil Gaiman0 -
Yes it does but it doesn't suddenly develop exogenous EPO or alter the genetic material contained within it.0
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it will degrade if not stored properly (there's a horrible story of one of the T-Mobile Freiburg doctors carrying on with a transfusion to one of the riders even when the blood had coagulated slightly in the blood bag). But the odds of the DNA changing from that of, well, not Valv Piti, to that of Valv Piti are rather remote.
Bear in mind forensic scientists obtain DNA from samples which are often older than those blood bags, and which have been stored in worse conditions. And they still get convictons in criminal cases.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
Some riders were not storing blood. Here's one of the documents setting out the treatments for some riders, not autologous blood doping but EPO, HGH, IGF-2 and insulin.
MG: one man's "crumpled paper" is another man's courtroom evidence. As for more evidence, the Spanish media mentioned covert surveillance of riders visiting Fuentes clinic. Other sports stars were tracked too, from other sports. But this has been kept under wraps.
Many, many people seem to have been involved with Dr Fuentes but it's incredibly hard to sort this out. Remember it became public in 2006 and Fuentes was practicing his "trade" as the team doctor with Kelme long before this. To bring Valverde to court is good but some riders are coming off their Puerto ban, like Basso and there are many riders, team managers and others who have not been brought to justice, the inconsistency is disappointing.
That fact that it takes an Italian entity to get Valverde shows the inability of some, from the UCI to the Spanish, to pursue the matter. As McQuaid put it, the UCI seems to prefer leaving dopers in peace:
For me it makes a mockery of the sport that no one can get to the bottom of this Puerto mess, three years on now."If we're going to start rejigging the podium of every major international race over the past two or three years, by finding new tests for new products, and going back to the organizer and saying 'you've got to rejig your podium' .. it makes a complete mockery of sport,"0 -
Kléber wrote:Some riders were not storing blood. Here's one of the documents setting out the treatments for some riders, not autologous blood doping but EPO, HGH, IGF-2 and insulin.
MG: one man's "crumpled paper" is another man's courtroom evidence. As for more evidence, the Spanish media mentioned covert surveillance of riders visiting Fuentes clinic. Other sports stars were tracked too, from other sports. But this has been kept under wraps.
Many, many people seem to have been involved with Dr Fuentes but it's incredibly hard to sort this out. Remember it became public in 2006 and Fuentes was practicing his "trade" as the team doctor with Kelme long before this. To bring Valverde to court is good but some riders are coming off their Puerto ban, like Basso and there are many riders, team managers and others who have not been brought to justice, the inconsistency is disappointing.
That fact that it takes an Italian entity to get Valverde shows the inability of some, from the UCI to the Spanish, to pursue the matter. As McQuaid put it, the UCI seems to prefer leaving dopers in peace:
For me it makes a mockery of the sport that no one can get to the bottom of this Puerto mess, three years on now."If we're going to start rejigging the podium of every major international race over the past two or three years, by finding new tests for new products, and going back to the organizer and saying 'you've got to rejig your podium' .. it makes a complete mockery of sport,"
I'm not clear on that document as I'm not sure whether it is what Fuentes was proposing to do based on information from Saiz and what was known to him or whether that is what the riders had agreed to themselves. Is there any context to it, as in where it appears on Fuentes papers and what was attached to it?0 -
I hear you Kleber, it is a mess.0
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I know you said you're riding a Pinarello in Spanish colours but...!
The document I included above is classified as #31. There are several other documents which refer to races that Luis Leon Sanchez Gil was doing and the medicine prescribed by Fuentes. For example there is a ring binder file (not crumpled?) that refers to the 2005 Tour de France and includes doping references for the team on a daily basis. Rather than name riders it just suggests "treatments" for the team as a whole, eg "Stage 13: HM + I3" where other documents show HM to be HM Lepori and I3 means insulin growth factor. Maybe Sanchez Gil was kept away from this daily cocktail but that involves a leap of faith, no?
Personally I regard Saiz as carrying on with an organised doping programme just as he did when at ONCE and where courtroom testimony from Alex Zuelle revealed that every rider was on the programme, sin excepción. Fuentes accounts show he was turning over €500,000 a year running this, although of course he was servicing others like "Nibelungo" (ie Ullrich), Basso and Mancebo too.
But the Puerto case needs to be judged, riders were being injected with large doses of illegally prescribed medicines by doctors, sometimes by mere soigneurs. Some of the people involved today are still operating in and around the sport today. It's not enough to see a handful of riders banned but the majority untouched and people like Valverde left in the sport for two years whilst winning left right and centre. Worse the staff involved never faced a ban at all.
If you have the time, take a look at some of the postings by KD Teamate on here:
http://forum.teamcsc-saxobank.com/topic ... IC_ID=3218 as it contains a decent compilation of the evidence.0 -
Blimey, that bloke is doing an excellent job keeping on top of it all. The more you read about this subject the less you trust everyone involved. I defy anyone to read this stuff and the other links posted on here and come away still thinking that we ought to just say 'what we don't know won't hurt us'.0
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I don't know how many of you can read Spanish but in my opinion the best document to keep track of the investigation is the Wiki entry in Spanish - very informative!!!
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operacion_Puerto
It also contains links to most of the original newspaper articles!x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
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