Cycle 2 work and DHL's stupidity...

Fwoggie

Hello,

I'm a bit perplexed and was wondering if anyone had a decent suggestion. My employer DHL (bless their cotton socks *cough*) have finally signed up to C2W after much harrassment. Even though it's not remotely her fault as it's all centralised corporate wishy washyness, my local HR manager makes no secret of how much she hates my persistence to speed it up in any way.

Anyway, to my dismay T&C's have been put in place, demanding that we have to buy through Halfords (because we do their logistics I suppose) and that there's a ceiling of £500 retail value (despite the govt setting at £1k). Both conditions haven't exactly impressed me and they're definitely not negotiable, even when the six figure salaried director tries on your behalf. I can't contribute over and above the £500 limit either as that'll break inland revenue rules.

This has thrown me completely. I assume the £500 limit was set by someone who doesn't ride a bike a lot (if at all).

Can anyone suggest a sensible bike for a daily 13 mile round trip, half on roads, half on a canal path, year round with the odd summer trip to the lakes, peaks or cornwall given the above constraints?

So far I'm torn between the Boardman Performance Hybrid, the GT Agressor XC or the Carrera Fury. The Boardman's a rigid frame, Carrera's don't have a good reputation but that one has Rock Shox Toras and I don't know that much about the Agressor.

Does anyone have any opinions, I'd be most grateful...

biondino

I can't contribute over and above the £500 limit either as that'll break inland revenue rules

Ask them to show you which rules. I spent £1500 on a bike, £1000 through C2W and the rest via cheque on top. My company set up the scheme with Wiggle, they don't have a hire purchase agreement thingy (for sums above a grand) but they don't need one as I only spent a grand via them. Everything was easy and above board.

If you'll only save a couple of hundred quid at best and have to deal with Halfords, you might reach the tipping point where you decide to tell them you're no longer interested.

AndyManc

Most companies stick with Halfords, mine included.

I've never been impressed with the C2W sheme, you can pick up bargains and save just as much money.

There's a lot of GT fans on here, but I really like the look of the Boardman, though for a 13mile round trip all the bikes will do a decent job.



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Headhuunter

biondino wrote:

I can't contribute over and above the £500 limit either as that'll break inland revenue rules

Ask them to show you which rules. I spent £1500 on a bike, £1000 through C2W and the rest via cheque on top. My company set up the scheme with Wiggle, they don't have a hire purchase agreement thingy (for sums above a grand) but they don't need one as I only spent a grand via them. Everything was easy and above board.

If you'll only save a couple of hundred quid at best and have to deal with Halfords, you might reach the tipping point where you decide to tell them you're no longer interested.

I have heard that the Inland Rev is getting stricter about people contributing their own money to C2W because it makes definition of ownership a problem. Under law, you don't own the bike for the 1st 12-18 months but are leasing it from your employer and then buy it at a nominal 2nd hand price at the end of the lease period, however if you have contributed to the initial cost, and get made redundant, sacked or whatever within the lease period, ownership of the bike is difficult to ascertain so I think we'll increasingly see retailers refuse to allow you to add money to the overall cost of the bike.

Stuey01

Carrera Fury has a very good rep in the MTB forum. In fact it is one of the most recommended entry level MTBs

biondino

AndyManc wrote:

I've never been impressed with the C2W sheme, you can pick up bargains and save just as much money.

You provide links to the bargains and I'm sure you'll get a lot of thanks. Otherwise, I'll make do with my £400 off a Focus, ta.

AndyManc

Wiggle recently had £400 off the Focus Cayo Expert 2008, there’s bargains all over the place.

I'd prefer to have the choice of buying a bike from where I want, with an LBS I trust and can rely on, and is prepared to offer deals and personal advice.

My last 2 bikes have been bought from cycle co-op's that support local community cycle advocates, put in money and take a genuine interest, for me that is preferential to being rolled out on a C2W conveyor belt.

mountainroadie

got a boardman hybrid comp and it hammers my trek elite 9.9 carbon hardtail for speed

trek elite 9.9 £3500.00

boardman urban comp £500.00

your choice :?

Matt_westmids

I just got my bike through the Cycle Scheme luckily no Halfords in sight and my LBS was part of it pick my bike up on Thursday can't wait.

Out of your choices the Boardman would be the best bet.

Rockbuddy

To point out the obvious the boardman is a flat bar road bike and the other 2 mtbs. So you have to decide what you want from a bike. All would do your commute but the boardman would be the fastest and easiest to ride out of the 3 as it is the lightest with road bike gearing and geometry. If you are wanting to do any proper off roading and want an mtb then the Carrera (if not just for the forks alone) is the better spec'd for the money.

fossyant

With Halfords, you won't get round the 'limit' issue - i.e. company set at £500 no negotiation.

I'm getting my bike through the LBS, and have taken the full £1000.

We both don't yet know the cost of mine, but it will be about £1000, he's also had £100 cash deposit from me, and the CTW voucher recently. The bike is being built to spec for me (off the peg fixed frame), but he's very flexible. He has said he'd give me the cash back if I didn't spend the £1k, I just said I'll be spending it.

Work have the deal for £1k.....

lardboy

What about Condor? They take anyone's vouchers

Whichever scheme you or your employer choose, you will be able to use it to purchase a bicycle directly from Condor Cycles

You could top up to the Bivio Cyclocross that would cover everything on your list.

rolf_f

AndyManc wrote:

I've never been impressed with the C2W sheme, you can pick up bargains and save just as much money.

Not easily. Not all schemes use Halfords (many do not, mine included). Whilst you can certainly get 40% discounts outside the scheme, you have less choice. Why would you be unimpressed by a scheme that allowed me to go to my local bike shop, get nearly 40% off pretty much any bike I wanted (and one that certainly wasn't available at discount) and pay by interest free monthly installments? Certainly works for me.

This year I'll be using it to get loads of gear - again at nearly 40 percent off.

Basically, it is a good scheme - particularly if you don't have to go through Halfords.

NGale

My part of the NHS is one of the sensible ones which allows you to buy your bike anywhere. As a result I got mine through the LBS and got everything I needed (didn't even take the full amount either) and it meant I didn't have to go to Halfrauds.

Ironically my colleagues in Dorset (also part of SWAST) have to go to Halfords for their bikes because when they set their scheme up they were a separate service. only next year will they be part of the same scheme and be able to take their pick

AndyManc

Rolf F wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

Why would you be unimpressed by a scheme that allowed me to go to my local bike shop, get nearly 40% off pretty much any bike I wanted.

That makes me even more unimpressed :evil:



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Fwoggie

To pick up some on the above points,

I'm envious of a lot of you that are able to avoid Halfords, and even more envious of the people that aren't restricted to £500. DHL advises that they believe that's sufficient cash to buy a bike for commuting purposes. I suppose it is, but I'd like to chuck mine around a couple of the national parks as well.

I had a close look at the fury as a couple of people suggested, paying attention to the forks. I was quite impressed by the weight (or lack of), despite the fork being on it.

If it was up to me, I'd probably go for Wiggles as I think Halfords often over price.

The good news, having dug into it further, is that they'll give me 15% on top for accessories as a employee perk/freebie, but that can't be used to top up on the bike, nor can I top up with cash - I've asked and Halfords are having none of it.

Further, I can have one a year, so I think I might get the fury this year and a road going hybrid next year as they have recognised that you need more than one bike for summer vs winter commuting. During the summer, cycling along the canal paths is pleasant enough. In the winter, a lot of my canal path is bricked, particularly at the locks and it's equivalent to cycling on a 30 degree inclined icing rink when frosty, you have zero grip, even with off road tyres and it's downright scary, especially when so close to water. Several times I've come within 2 or so inches of going swimming to the point I've given up and use a road route that's much hill-ier (is that a word?) but doesn't have the risk of falling in the water.

Thanks for the advice so far though, I assume I'm on the right idea re the bikes I should chose at least?

the_hundredth_idiot

Fwoggie wrote:

I'm envious of a lot of you that are able to avoid Halfords, and even more envious of the people that aren't restricted to £500. DHL advises that they believe that's sufficient cash to buy a bike for commuting purposes. I suppose it is, but I'd like to chuck mine around a couple of the national parks as well.

I'd love to see if they applied the same logic to the CEO's company car. Sorry, sir, you'll have to hand back the Jag as a Citroen C1 will get you to work and back just as well.

And it's a completely dumbass argument because why should they care how much you spend? It comes out of your salary so they're not out of pocket. They even make VAT and employer NI savings on the cost of the bike so the more you spend, the more they save.

Well, looking further down your post, they do share some of that saving with you by giving you the 15% top-up for accessories (my firm does the same). But they're still making a saving by you buying a bike rather than taking the income as cash.

Also, try asking some of the other dealers which take the Halfords vouchers. I know of ones which will let you top up or come to some other arrangement around buying a more expensive bike. One guy I work with got a healthy discount on the bike provided he paid £150 for some basic £5 pedals, if you see what I mean.

I don't think the Revenue care about topping up as it makes no difference to them on the tax front (if anything, it means VAT receipts are higher). It's the ownership issue which your employer is likely to be most bothered about.

Fwoggie

I've sent a bitchy email to the person who wrote the cycle to work policy - it won't be her fault, it'll be her bosses no doubt, complaining that the £500 is excessively restrictive.

vorsprung

Sounds like you are expecting the cycle to work scheme to fund your hobby

500 quid is plenty for a functional bike that will do a 13 mile each way commute

spen666

Fwoggie wrote:

Hello,

I'm a bit perplexed and was wondering if anyone had a decent suggestion. My employer DHL (bless their cotton socks *cough*) have finally signed up to C2W after much harrassment. Even though it's not remotely her fault as it's all centralised corporate wishy washyness, my local HR manager makes no secret of how much she hates my persistence to speed it up in any way.

Anyway, to my dismay T&C's have been put in place, demanding that we have to buy through Halfords (because we do their logistics I suppose) and that there's a ceiling of £500 retail value (despite the govt setting at £1k). Both conditions haven't exactly impressed me and they're definitely not negotiable, even when the six figure salaried director tries on your behalf. I can't contribute over and above the £500 limit either as that'll break inland revenue rules.

1. Companies can set whatever limit they want on this scheme.

2. There is no £1000 limit as such - what it is is that as this is effectively an HP agreement between you and your company, if they lend you more than £1000, they need a consumer credit licence. Most companies do not have one, so they set limit at £1000 to avoid the huge expense of getting / maintaining a consumer credit licence.

3.HM Revenue & Customs (for it is they who replaced the Inland Revenue some 4 years or so ago) are very clear in their guidance that you are NOT permitted to top up the amount of the voucher. If you do, then it is no longer an HP agreement and is therefore not tax exempt and you become liable to be taxed on the whole sum "loaned" by your company as a benefit in kind. Thus you lose all tax savings and have paid top dollar for the bike

...

Does anyone have any opinions, I'd be most grateful...

prawny

I was allowed the full £1000 but only spent £500 because i'm cheap 8)

Mine is particularly rubbish as its a 3 year agreement, they take the cash over one year but I can't have another one for 3 years and its through halfords

spen666

The Hundredth Idiot wrote:

[....

I don't think the Revenue care about topping up as it makes no difference to them on the tax front (if anything, it means VAT receipts are higher). It's the ownership issue which your employer is likely to be most bothered about.

Sadly you are very wrong here. See my previous post for explanation, but HM Revenue & Customs do care as topping up value takes it out of the HP arena and hence not tax exempt

Fwoggie

spen666 wrote:

Fwoggie wrote:

Hello,

I'm a bit perplexed and was wondering if anyone had a decent suggestion. My employer DHL (bless their cotton socks *cough*) have finally signed up to C2W after much harrassment. Even though it's not remotely her fault as it's all centralised corporate wishy washyness, my local HR manager makes no secret of how much she hates my persistence to speed it up in any way.

Anyway, to my dismay T&C's have been put in place, demanding that we have to buy through Halfords (because we do their logistics I suppose) and that there's a ceiling of £500 retail value (despite the govt setting at £1k). Both conditions haven't exactly impressed me and they're definitely not negotiable, even when the six figure salaried director tries on your behalf. I can't contribute over and above the £500 limit either as that'll break inland revenue rules.

1. Companies can set whatever limit they want on this scheme.

2. There is no £1000 limit as such - what it is is that as this is effectively an HP agreement between you and your company, if they lend you more than £1000, they need a consumer credit licence. Most companies do not have one, so they set limit at £1000 to avoid the huge expense of getting / maintaining a consumer credit licence.

3.HM Revenue & Customs (for it is they who replaced the Inland Revenue some 4 years or so ago) are very clear in their guidance that you are NOT permitted to top up the amount of the voucher. If you do, then it is no longer an HP agreement and is therefore not tax exempt and you become liable to be taxed on the whole sum "loaned" by your company as a benefit in kind. Thus you lose all tax savings and have paid top dollar for the bike

...

Does anyone have any opinions, I'd be most grateful...

I agree on all three points, I read up on the £1k "limit" and the reasons for it.

As for expecting them to subsidise my hobby, I guess I am, but is that so bad? They provide company cars (I get the allowance) and fuel cards which can be used for private use. This is the same sorta thing

Or maybe I'm just expecting too much bang for my buck, but hey, its rip off Britain, gotta fight for your rights!
Maybe rights is the wrong word, but hopefully you know what I mean.

Finbar Saunders

The two most respected LBS in my general area (25 mile radius, not just local) both take Halford's vouchers. I got a Gary Fisher at the reduced price plus I got to spend my excess with them on accessories. Between the two shops I could have also had a Trek or a Cube, both of which you can't get directly from Halford's. It's well worth asking around your local stores to see if any take Halford's vouchers.

I had my voucher for about 6 weeks before choosing a bike. There was no way I could have got a better bargain than what C2W offered with tax and VAT savings plus interest free credit. I also get all the benefits of having bought from an LBS.

Fwoggie

LBS = Local Bike Shop?

Robert208454

Does anyone know when the C2W is coming out this year for DHL and if they have increased the voucher from £500???? got one last year but need i new one 8)

el_presidente

Quite frankly I am amazed this one survived the budget. Why my taxes are being used to subsidise people buying mutliple £1000 bikes I have no idea.

asprilla

el_presidente wrote:

Quite frankly I am amazed this one survived the budget. Why my taxes are being used to subsidise people buying mutliple £1000 bikes I have no idea.

So that you can take advantage of the numerous bargains on ebay?

spen666

...

There is no upper limit set by government of £1k or other wise. Think this is confusion re need to have consumer credit licence if offer credit of >£1k ( and C2W is a coonsumer credit agreement)

....

dugliss

I had the same thing through Royal Mail with having to buy from Halfords and the £500 limit. The trouble now is that most of the bikes that were just under £500 are now just over with the exception of the Boardman hybrid which is still £499 I think. I got the Boardman with mine and have just finished paying over 18 months but was looking at maybe getting a road bike. On that scheme Halfords can source in nearly any bike you want but you`d have to pay the rrp which still mostly takes you just over the £500. I recently emailed to ask if there were any plans to increase the limit anytime soon but they still insist that it`s more than enough to get a decent bike for commuting.
Get the Boardman and stick some marathon + on it

alfablue

1. Companies can set whatever limit they want on this scheme.

2. There is no £1000 limit as such - what it is is that as this is effectively an HP agreement between you and your company, if they lend you more than £1000, they need a consumer credit licence. Most companies do not have one, so they set limit at £1000 to avoid the huge expense of getting / maintaining a consumer credit licence.

3.HM Revenue & Customs (for it is they who replaced the Inland Revenue some 4 years or so ago) are very clear in their guidance that you are NOT permitted to top up the amount of the voucher. If you do, then it is no longer an HP agreement and is therefore not tax exempt and you become liable to be taxed on the whole sum "loaned" by your company as a benefit in kind. Thus you lose all tax savings and have paid top dollar for the bike

1. Yes, within the HMRC and OFT rules of course

2. It is a hire agreement, explicitly not (and mustn't be) a hire-purchase agreement, for which there is no tax break. Yes, they need a Consumer Credit licence for above £1k.

3. I don't think they say anything about topping up the voucher. The reason why employers will probably not wish to allow this is because of potential conflicts over the ownership of the bike if both employer and employee have a stake. What the employer must not do is suggest that the employee can buy or take possession of the bike at the end of the loan period (even though this may subsequently take place under a secondary agreement), as this would make it a hire-purchase agreement which does not qualify for the tax break.

Implementation Guidance

I have had 2 bikes on the scheme and in both cases I topped up - the bike shops didn't care, the employer doesn't know or care to know.