What would you do?

DonDaddyD
DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
edited June 2009 in Commuting chat
I've spent more time on this than choosing a flat, a course for my degree and my next car... Its representative of how important the decision is to me...

Last question promise.

Took a trip to Luciano Cycles yesterday to get some bike quotes:

Kuota Kharma
I have a choice of the following groupsets:
105, Ultegra or Centaur Carbon

OR I could get the

Kuota Kebel with 105

I was set to go for a Kharma with Centaur Carbon. The last option came about because the guy in the shop reccommended getting a Kebel, which is a better frame but lesser groupset yet would cost £50 less than a Kharma with Centaur. The Kharma is more than enough bike but the prospect of owning the supposedly better (and better looking - in natual carbon or white and red - Kebel) has got me rethinking...

What would you go for and why? Reccommendations please any thoughts on the Kebel or reviews from Kharma or Kebel owners would be great!!!

And a poll, polls are fun!
Food Chain number = 4

A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
«1

Comments

  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Kebel dude! Always get the best frame you can afford...

    Although Shimano on a Kuota is still wrong wrong wrong!
  • Bassjunkieuk
    Bassjunkieuk Posts: 4,232
    Kebel dude! Always get the best frame you can afford...

    Although Shimano on a Kuota is still wrong wrong wrong!

    +1 It makes sense to get the one with the best frame......the groupset can always be upgraded at a later date!
    Who's the daddy?
    Twitter, Videos & Blog
    Player of THE GAME
    Giant SCR 3.0 - FCN 5
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    Kebel dude! Always get the best frame you can afford...

    Although Shimano on a Kuota is still wrong wrong wrong!

    +1 It makes sense to get the one with the best frame......the groupset can always be upgraded at a later date!

    +1 to that! Get the best frame - think of it as the foundations of a house, you can build whatever you like on it!
  • roger_merriman
    roger_merriman Posts: 6,165
    i'd agree for a road bike it's almost all in the frame. get the frame you want, wheels gears they can be added as parts wear.
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    +1. What Jash said.

    (My own view is that the Kebel frame is nicer looking anyway. :) )
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,708
    I managed to click the wrong button somehow, so take a vote from the Centaur Khama and put it onto the Kebel. I'm a full on Campag fanboy, and still say that getting the better frame is worth it (just make sure you put a proper groupset on when you can). ;)
  • roger_merriman
    roger_merriman Posts: 6,165
    whyamihere wrote:
    I managed to click the wrong button somehow, so take a vote from the Centaur Khama and put it onto the Kebel. I'm a full on Campag fanboy, and still say that getting the better frame is worth it (just make sure you put a proper groupset on when you can). ;)

    though that might be tad painful on the wallet? certinly the shifters are pritty penny. and i'd guess you'd need to change most if not at same time?
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,708
    Yes, but the 105 set will wear out eventually. At that point, or when the upgrade bug bites again, Campag can generally be had a lot cheaper than the equivalent Shimano.
  • Agree the general view - get the best frame you can.

    This maybe a dumb question, but whay can't they do a Kebel + (say) Veloce and match the price of the Kebel + 105?

    (the answer is probably that the bike can be bought by the shop ready to assemble with 105, because Shimano subsidise supply of gruppos onto new frames like crazy. But it's worth the question, because right about now, retailers must be pretty keen to convert stock to cash. You can swap out stuff bit by bit with some judicious ebaying to get it to Centaur, Chorus, Record or even SR later...)

    Edit: your fulcrums - you going to run them on this? If so, they've got a Shimano freehub, right? So maybe 105 is the way to go. Having a Shimano bike and a Campag bike is a bit of a pain: can't swap wheels between them; can't share tools; two sorts of consumables etc.
    Swim. Bike. Run. Yeah. That's what I used to do.

    Bike 1
    Bike 2-A
  • Christophe3967
    Christophe3967 Posts: 1,200
    +1 for the frame. And no point worrying about Campag as you're already running Shimano. It would be a real pain.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Is the Kebel really that much better than the Kharma '07 bike of the year? The Kharma is stiff, comfortable, rigid at the front end but its not overly light. The Kebel is marginally stiffer and slightly lighter but judging by the size of the Kharma's head tube not that much more rigid at the front. Both have the same seat post and 12K carbon weave. The Kebel is better looking than the Kharma. I think its the whole Giant TCR Advance and Defy Advance thing - From the Cycling plus review "The 2009 TCR is in itself so comfortable it negates the reason for having a Defy Advance" I'm nearing the conclusion that the Kharma is good to the point that it negates the reason for having a Kebel.
    Greg66 wrote:
    Agree the general view - get the best frame you can.

    This maybe a dumb question, but whay can't they do a Kebel + (say) Veloce and match the price of the Kebel + 105?

    (the answer is probably that the bike can be bought by the shop ready to assemble with 105, because Shimano subsidise supply of gruppos onto new frames like crazy. But it's worth the question, because right about now, retailers must be pretty keen to convert stock to cash. You can swap out stuff bit by bit with some judicious ebaying to get it to Centaur, Chorus, Record or even SR later...)

    Edit: your fulcrums - you going to run them on this? If so, they've got a Shimano freehub, right? So maybe 105 is the way to go. Having a Shimano bike and a Campag bike is a bit of a pain: can't swap wheels between them; can't share tools; two sorts of consumables etc.

    There is so much flexibility with the Kuota its a proper head f*ck.

    The price ranges from £1500 for a Kharma with 105 to £1800 for a Kharma with centaur carbon. At most I really only want to spend £1600 - £1700 (which, puts me in the Kharma Ultegra - not SL - Kebel 105 range)

    The guy in the shop is happy to switch out any groupset (for the price) and any wheel combination. I can even buy the bike without wheels (save £150) and use my Fulcrums, which I'm doing.

    Didn't ask about getting Veloce with the Kebel or Kharma. To be honest I really want Campag Centaur Carbon because its er carbon and looks nice.

    Re. Fulcrums: The freehub body needs to be replaced (the original one is broken) so whatever gruppo I get determines what freehub body I buy. Incidentally Fulcrum chrage £60 for a shimano freehub body and £30 for a campag one.

    I take the point about having two bikes with two different groupset manufacturers.

    (I'm at the point where I may walk in the shop with cash and a list of components and say make this happen)
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    I was going to say Kebel plus Veloce but Greg66 beat me to it. Worth asking if they can do that. Although, if you are keeping your current bike then maybe Shimano would make life easier, as you can then swap wheels across, use same tools etc.
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    DonDaddyD wrote:

    (I'm at the point where I may walk in the shop with cash and a list of components and say make this happen)

    Go for it. Walk in, plonk the cash down and demand a Kebel with Centaur, they're not going to say no. Start at £1500 to make room for negotiation!

    If you really are struggling then may I suggest test riding both frames? You should do this anyway.

    If it were my money, I'd be buying the Kebel.
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    DDD, it sounds to me like you want to get the Kharma with Centaur!

    If that's what you want, to quote those nice people at Nike, 'just do it'.

    No point getting a bike you don't quite want because a bunch of people on the interweb think it's a better idea! :)
  • DDD, it sounds to me like you want to get the Kharma with Centaur!

    If that's what you want, to quote those nice people at Nike, 'just do it'.

    No point getting a bike you don't quite want because a bunch of people on the interweb think it's a better idea! :)

    Now you say that, and there's some truth in it.

    But .... if DDD can be persuaded to buy something that's not his first choice, his buyer-lust continues only partly abated. That way, he's happy in the short term (new toy) and in the long term (will want another new toy down the line).
    Swim. Bike. Run. Yeah. That's what I used to do.

    Bike 1
    Bike 2-A
  • Christophe3967
    Christophe3967 Posts: 1,200
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Is the Kebel really that much better than the Kharma '07 bike of the year? The Kharma is stiff, comfortable, rigid at the front end but its not overly light. The Kebel is marginally stiffer and slightly lighter but judging by the size of the Kharma's head tube not that much more rigid at the front. Both have the same seat post and 12K carbon weave. The Kebel is better looking than the Kharma. I think its the whole Giant TCR Advance and Defy Advance thing - From the Cycling plus review "The 2009 TCR is in itself so comfortable it negates the reason for having a Defy Advance"

    I read that too and as a result assumed that I'd get a TCR. But when I tried it wasn't as good a fit for me as the Defy. The TCR would have slightly cheaper and I preferred the colour. If I'd not had the chance to try both I would have ended up with the wrong bike. I also discovered by getting properly fitted, that I've been riding for ages with my saddle 1 cm too high.
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    Greg66 wrote:
    DDD, it sounds to me like you want to get the Kharma with Centaur!

    If that's what you want, to quote those nice people at Nike, 'just do it'.

    No point getting a bike you don't quite want because a bunch of people on the interweb think it's a better idea! :)

    Now you say that, and there's some truth in it.

    But .... if DDD can be persuaded to buy something that's not his first choice, his buyer-lust continues only partly abated. That way, he's happy in the short term (new toy) and in the long term (will want another new toy down the line).

    :D

    The idea of getting the bike you wanted was what pushed me to get the Maxima in the end. If I'd settled for the one they were trying to down-sell me to (bless them) I'd have wished I'd spent the cash getting exactly the bike I wanted. Now I've got that bike I doubt I'll but another high-end roadie. Ever.

    Does that make any sense? Is it a girl thing? Do you see what I'm on about, DDD?
  • The idea of getting the bike you wanted was what pushed me to get the Maxima in the end. If I'd settled for the one they were trying to down-sell me to (bless them) I'd have wished I'd spent the cash getting exactly the bike I wanted. Now I've got that bike I doubt I'll but another high-end roadie. Ever.


    Awwww, that's so sweet.

    Completely naive and wholly unrealistic, but sweet. :D:wink:
    Swim. Bike. Run. Yeah. That's what I used to do.

    Bike 1
    Bike 2-A
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    Greg66 wrote:
    The idea of getting the bike you wanted was what pushed me to get the Maxima in the end. If I'd settled for the one they were trying to down-sell me to (bless them) I'd have wished I'd spent the cash getting exactly the bike I wanted. Now I've got that bike I doubt I'll but another high-end roadie. Ever.


    Awwww, that's so sweet.

    Completely naive and wholly unrealistic, but sweet. :D:wink:

    We'll see, sunshine, we'll see...

    Note how I was quite specific... and how I don't rule out a TT bike...
  • gtvlusso
    gtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    + 1 with Jash - I won't argue with someone who could hand me my ar$e.....!
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345

    We'll see, sunshine, we'll see...

    Note how I was quite specific... and how I don't rule out a TT bike...

    :lol:

    Way wrong, little miss. Way wrong. That's not how cycling works and it hasn't worked like for centuries now.

    Note how Jash hasn't jumped into defend your wayward logic, and he has a Prince... :P
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    cjcp wrote:

    We'll see, sunshine, we'll see...

    Note how I was quite specific... and how I don't rule out a TT bike...

    :lol:

    Way wrong, little miss. Way wrong. That's not how cycling works and it hasn't worked like for centuries now.

    Note how Jash hasn't jumped into defend your wayward logic, and he has a Prince... :P

    Indefensible. The Prince won't be the last frame I buy, but it'll be the last for a while. I do fancy a Colnago EPS though!



    m_eps-AMIT.jpg
  • Roastie
    Roastie Posts: 1,968
    Stop messing around.

    Kharma + SRAM Rival.
    I do fancy a Colnago EPS though!
    Ah. A proper bicycle!
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Roastiecp wrote:
    Stop messing around.

    Kharma + SRAM Rival.

    That's the very definition of messing around!
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    DDD, it sounds to me like you want to get the Kharma with Centaur!

    It is! I actually went into the shop to buy a Kharma with Centaur and got hit with £1800. I couldn't justify the extra £300 (Kharma 105 costs £1500) and certainly couldn't justify it considering a Kharma with Ultegra (not SL) costs £1650. At £1800 the Kebel becomes an viable option at £1700 (though it comes with 105).
    The idea of getting the bike you wanted was what pushed me to get the Maxima in the end. If I'd settled for the one they were trying to down-sell me to (bless them) I'd have wished I'd spent the cash getting exactly the bike I wanted. Now I've got that bike I doubt I'll but another high-end roadie. Ever.

    Does that make any sense? Is it a girl thing? Do you see what I'm on about, DDD?

    Totally does make sense. I think with this kind of purchase, when passion is involved, you have to be a little precious with your decision making.

    (As soon as I get the bike, I'm putting my name down on 1 charity ride and one sportive....)

    @Jash, I was going to try the Kharma but true to form it rained which meant that the test bike wasn't ridden in.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Roastie
    Roastie Posts: 1,968
    Roastiecp wrote:
    Stop messing around.

    Kharma + SRAM Rival.

    That's the very definition of messing around!
    Poo to you. :wink:
  • kingrollo
    kingrollo Posts: 3,198
    My dilemma is between a kuota 105 + wheel upgrade - or a kebel 105 - probably without a wheel upgrade. - Depends how much more the kebel comes in at 100-200 - its tempting - beyond that its hard to justify.

    would love ultegra - but extra cost to nominal benefit.
    Have had centaur for the last 8 years - in terms of durability faultless ....but performance - well I preferred my previous ultegra.

    a thing against the kebel is the top tube size - I currently ride 535 - where as the kebel comes in meduim 525 - or large 550 - where as the kuota do a 535 top tube !
  • STEFANOS4784
    STEFANOS4784 Posts: 4,109
    Why not save a little longer and get the Kebel with Centaur :? Or get a small loan 8)
    Next bike i get will be a KOM but will probably be an old man by the time i've saved enough.......
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Why not save a little longer and get the Kebel with Centaur :? Or get a small loan 8)
    Next bike i get will be a KOM but will probably be an old man by the time i've saved enough.......

    The KOM looks like something from the future in certain colours (as does the Kebel) my only problem with it, is its tank cannon sized tubes, they are absolutely massive, huge buggers as though you were astride a rocket, which you are.. but still...
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • kingrollo
    kingrollo Posts: 3,198
    I have centaur on my current bike - and don't particulary rate it. Would prefer 105. I am leaning towards the kharma - maybe my knees and back will thank me ! + there isn't a kebel whith top size I prefer , its either 525 - or 550 - I ride a 535 - which the Kharma has !

    Only question now - is do I wait until september to save a little cash ? (well i won't save anything - it will go on better wheels !)