'high speed' cornering

mask of sanity

Firstly just want to apologise for what is no doubt a repeat of a previous thread but I did a search and couldn't find anything so thought i'd start another one.

I've only just started using a road bike and am totally loving it but am still a bit unsure of cornering at high speeds. From what I understand you're meant to do most of the steering by leaning rather then turning and do all the breaking before you enter the bend?! Is this right? I've tried to do some leaning but i feel really unconfident about the levels of grip as it just feels like the bike is going to slip out from under me... :?

Does putting most of your weight on the outside (of the bend) pedal and trying to keep your body upright help or will that just screw up your centre of balance?!

Any advice would be appreciated and thanks in advance

yoadius

I used to be a nervous descender even though I do downhill mountain biking, just the lack of feel from the tyres.

Putting all your weight on your outside pedal pointing at 6 o'clock really helps me, as does relaxing your upper body.

DomPro

I've found the grip on road tyres to be really really good. Never had one slip from underneath me and I've done some crazy fast corners in wet and dry. Ain't so good on poor road surface though, i.e. gravel etc.

Try upping the speed on a familiar corner everytime you do it. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how well the bike holds on.

rally200

Steering at speed is one of those things that as a beginner can get worse the more you think about it.

Juju_uk_68

Counter steering is the key.

When leaning you will find without realising, that your actually probably already steering the "other way", this is natural and totally correct. Counter steering allows for minor bar input to correct the natural lean.

Smokin Joe

Do all your braking before the turn, relax and stay low on the bike and steer with your eyes. The line you are looking at is the line you will follow, don't worry about leaning as that will happen naturally.

rally200

Juju_uk_68 wrote:

Counter steering is the key.

When leaning you will find without realising, that your actually probably already steering the "other way", this is natural and totally correct. Counter steering allows for minor bar input to correct the natural lean.

true - instead of leaning when you want to go left try pushing VERY, VERY GENTLY the left side of the bars away from you - wheel points right, you go left

redvee

Another thing, put your weight onto the outer/lower pedal.

rollin

rally200 wrote:

Steering at speed is one of those things that as a beginner can get worse the more you think about it.

Couldn't agree more.

Just build up slowly. The grip is there. You will get better over time. Keep relaxed.

Keep weight on the outside pedal if coasting and brake before you turn.

It will become completely natural.

GeorgeShaw

Smokin Joe wrote:

Do all your braking before the turn, relax and stay low on the bike and steer with your eyes. The line you are looking at is the line you will follow, don't worry about leaning as that will happen naturally.

+1. If you look at what you don't want to hit, you're more likely to hit it. Look where you want to go, and the bike will follow.

Another tip I was given when you're on unfamiliar roads is to look at the apex of a corner. If the apex is coming towards you, then the corner is tightening.

rally200

Think Luke Skywalker and the attack on the Death Star - the force will guide you (just hope that R2 is looking out for potholes)

ride_whenever

you might find that following someone who is a better descender than you will help too.

FSR_XC

I've seen some people lean sat in the saddle and others who lean the bike, but come out of the saddle and stay more upright than the bike.

I can see the second method keeps the CoG lower, but which is the better method & why?

Monty Dog

Following other riders is a great way to learn to corner at speed. Some general rules apply:
Wide entry, aim for the apex of the bend and use the camber to your advantage. If you start narrow, you will run wide and getting traction on th outside of the camber is far less effective, as well as having problems with oncoming traffic.
Brake before, in a straight line and without leaning - braking mid- cornering generally doesn't mix. If you need to brake, straighten-up, brake and then lean over again
Keep your weight low and centred between the wheels, apply pressure on the outside pedal - avoid pedalling through the turn as you may clip the inside pedal. Stay in the saddle through the bend, but you may want to get out the saddle to get the power down on the exit.
If riding in a pack, hold your line through the bend - don't start on the inside and aim for the other side on the exit - the guys outsiide of you won't appreciate being pushed to the other side of the road (annoyingly, many experienced riders do this too!)

fatbloke8

I am very new to cycling but spent many years on motorised two wheels and had the same problem when new trying to corner fast at first. It seems that a lot of skills riding a motorbike apply to a pushbike too.

Unfortunately to truly appreciate where the limit of grip is you have to become practised at exceeding it and that could mean falling off however hopefully the following will help a little.

Golden rule is look where you want to go. Do Not look at the opposite kerb/a car/ or tree as you will go there look through the corner and to where you would like to be. If you follow this the rest will follow automatically.

Stay relaxed if you are tense the bike will be tense, if you feel you are approaching a corner to fast don't tense up flap your arms like a chicken (while still holding the bars) this will remove some of the tension. Easier said than done and you do have the I look an idiot element but the more you practise the better you get and it does work after a time.

As mentioned previously Counter steer - you do this already without realising, however to prove that it works find a nice straight bit of wide quiet road (or a deserted car park) get above 10mph and gently (v. gently at first) push on the left bar (not down through the bar imagine pushing the bar if your forearm is at 90 degrees to your upper arm, then relax the push! This is just like a very little nudge make sure you release the pressure almost immediatly after the nudge. The bike will turn left. As you increase pressure you turn and drop into the lean quicker. The harder you do it the faster it happens and the more lean angle you get.

Other tips we had drop your inside shoulder into the turn this causes you to look where you are going, weight the outside pedal slightly. After that you are into hanging off to lower the COG and keep the bike more upright so you can carry higher corner speeds, judge lean angle but a Valentino Rossi impression on a road bike is going to look a bit odd

Good luck

mask of sanity

wow, lots of responses, thanks guys!!

So when you say aim to where you want to go does this mean that you should look through the bend and keep where you looking constant or should you change where you're looking as you progress through the corner?

The whole counter steer sounds quite confusing. Is the purpose of it to get you into a natural lean? Don't quite understand how steering to the right can possibly make the bike go left!! :? Is it a forward push in the same way as you would steer normally and does it matter where you're holding the handlebars or will it work anywhere?!

Cheers

markos1963

mask of sanity wrote:

wow, lots of responses, thanks guys!!

So when you say aim to where you want to go does this mean that you should look through the bend and keep where you looking constant or should you change where you're looking as you progress through the corner?

The whole counter steer sounds quite confusing. Is the purpose of it to get you into a natural lean? Don't quite understand how steering to the right can possibly make the bike go left!! :? Is it a forward push in the same way as you would steer normally and does it matter where you're holding the handlebars or will it work anywhere?!

Cheers

The principle of counter steering is that if you push to the right the bikes direction of travel is still forward and it wants to fall to the left and visa versa. Once the bike is falling its then leaning in the direction you want. The faster you can do this the quicker the change of direction. If you go into a fast chicane half way through you pull in the opposite direction the bike will stand up and then fall to the other side. All very confusing I know.
The outside foot weighted at 6 o'clock is on of the best bits of advise you can have, literally put all your weight on the outside, if you can feel yourself lighten in the saddle you know you have done enough. Grip wise unless your tyres are complete cr&p yu'll never exceed the grip in the dry on a good surface. I can corner faster on my bike than any motorbike I have riden like for like.
Smooth, relaxed and focused is the key and practice is the only way to reach it.

GeorgeShaw

mask of sanity wrote:

So when you say aim to where you want to go does this mean that you should look through the bend and keep where you looking constant or should you change where you're looking as you progress through the corner?

As you progress through the corner. So you're either looking at or beyond the apex. That also helps you to judge where the apex is, if the road is unfamiliar.

ColinJ

ride_whenever wrote:

you might find that following someone who is a better descender than you will help too.

You might, but there again you might not!

A mate of mine is a demon descender. He used to race motorbikes, motocross, and mountain bikes and he is also fearless. When I first rode with him, I chased him down a few very fast local descents with very tight bends and watched him lay the bike right over and fly round them while I ended up panic braking and crossing the white line.

If you know what you are doing, yes, follow a good descender. If you don't, don't! :shock:

mask of sanity

Ohhh, think that makes sense. So effectively the bike is falling over due to the direction the front wheel is facing being different to the direction of the force on the bike but by making the direction change quick it causes the bike to lean rather then fall over completely?

And so far as looking at the apex is concerned does it basically mean you're dividing the corner into an infinite number of straight lines that constantly change as a result of a repositioning of the apex?! Not sure if that makes sense, is kinda hard to put into words! :?

lactic

I know this is about cars but it may help in understanding taking the best line through a corner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqjK7aIk1Ro

Smokin Joe

You do not need to think about countersteering when you corner. The bike will countersteer all on it's own without any need to apply extra pressure on the bars, countersteering is a product of leaning a bike into a turn and you have been doing that since the very first time you rode a bike. if the bike hadn't countersteered you would have gone straight on and hit the opposite kerb.

Go onto youtube and watch radio control motorcycle models turn a corner. The front end is "free", there is no input onto the bars at all yet if you look closely they countersteer all on there own. So called advanced motorcycle instructors earn a fortune "teaching" people to countersteer only because it has become a modern buzzword and they don't understand the principle themselves. I doubt if either Eddy Merckx or Barry Sheene had even heard the term yet they could corner their respective machine at speeds that would have most of us needing a change of pants.

mask of sanity

Just got back from a sixty miler and had the oppurtunity to practise a bit of fast (for me) cornering and what people have said here helped sooo much, so im really grateful for it!! Thanks everyone

This sounds stupid but i found going round smallish roundabouts really usefull as it gave me the oppurtunity to get a feel for the levels of grip in a situation where i could see everything around me and have more control over the bike, real confidence booster!! Then i applied it to a nice blind left hander and the bike just stuck to the road!! is such a nice feeling!!

Thanks again everyone!!

oldwelshman

The quickest way round a corner is in a straight line
SO as some have said take a wide entry ( but not over the white lines) and cut the corner and exit wide toward the centre again.
Forget about leaning that will come natural as you go faster.
I find I lean more on a flat race than on a steep decent as you can corner very fast on a flat bend in a race, bt lots of decents have blind bends and shrp bends.
The outside foot is always down for two reasons, balance and to stop the pedal hitting the floor!!
Practise makes perfect, try straightish decents with gradual bends the go to steeper decents and sharper bends.
As monty said go with some experienced riders to try.
By the way, being a racing cyclist does not mean they can decend well !!!