Steep decline in pro riders

iainf72

http://www.velonews.com/article/90606/a ... ng-peloton

Interesting but not terribly surprising. I remember the list of Spanish riders who couldn't get teams and it was large.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

http://www.velonews.com/article/90606/a-shrinking-peloton

Interesting but not terribly surprising. I remember the list of Spanish riders who couldn't get teams and it was large.

for most it's lousy career choice...burned out by 32, no wins, done nothing else in terms of school-uni age 18-32, career development nil...would you enocourgae a kid towards it given the shaky odd of making a good living from it as compared with far safer options that skills you for a 35 or 40 year career?

Cheshire_Cat

for most it's lousy career choice...burned out by 32, no wins, done nothing else in terms of school-uni age 18-32, career development nil...

pretty well sums my current job

dave_1

Cheshire_Cat wrote:

for most it's lousy career choice...burned out by 32, no wins, done nothing else in terms of school-uni age 18-32, career development nil...

pretty well sums my current job

sorry to hear that CC...mine is ok, but over the years have found some adults come scarily close to advocating youngsters concentrate only on trying to be pros when infact it's very poor career advice

Kléber

The concept of "professional" has always been a bit vague. A rider for Astana or Cofidis yes, but what about a 21 year old for Team Apiflo-Differdange? Are many of the British teams even registered as pro teams?

Things have changed quite a bit now, there are minimum standards for Pro Tour teams. Still, look at Astana, riders are having to worry about the wages being paid. One interesting move is by "La Fondation d'Entreprise La Française des Jeu" which alllows recruits to the pro team to continue studies. Recent Paris-Nice stage winner Jeremy Roy was allowed to pursue high level engineering studies whilst riding for the team, not doing his reading on the team bus and writing papers in the hotel but his race calendar was actually built around the degree course, the education came first. Now this is the exception but it's the sign of change.

moray_gub

Dave_1 wrote:

Cheshire_Cat wrote:

for most it's lousy career choice...burned out by 32, no wins, done nothing else in terms of school-uni age 18-32, career development nil...

pretty well sums my current job

sorry to hear that CC...mine is ok, but over the years have found some adults come scarily close to advocating youngsters concentrate only on trying to be pros when infact it's very poor career advice

I suppose its poor as in the amount of pros making big bucks is quite small , i suspect most pros becomes so at first due to a love of the sport and not neccesarily to make huge wads of cash.That would seem to be a secondary aim to begin with or i am being naieve ?

Harp

Got to agree with the above in that it is a pretty poor career choice unless you are in the top teams.
It is a hard sport to try and get rich from.
I wonder how it compares to say football, we all hear of the top earners on $%* per week and that maybe equates to the top pro tour teams.
Does the average wage in the English 2nd and 3rd division compare to wages for continental status riders ??

Kléber

All sport involves the "winner takes all" concept, where those at the top don't just earn a bit more than others, they earn huge amounts more. The salaries of Valverde, Contador or Cavendish (alone, not combined) can fund a small team like Jimmy Casper's Sojasun-Besson outfit.

A Grand Tour winner can earn millions, come in the top-10 and you might get a six figure salary. Many young pros have been on the rickety ladder for a long time, riding full time from their late teens and only a few make it to the pro levels. most fall off the rungs. Of course just signing a pro contract is not the end game, it is just another step on the ladder.

When you talk to the riders, what is interesting is that for some it is a great interest but for others it is surprisingly like work, they talk of salaries, bonuses, they long for time off, discuss holidays and more, there aren't that many who dream of riding Paris-Roubaix or care for the history of the Fleche Wallone, it's just a job for many, the alternative is the factory down the road.

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

When you talk to the riders, what is interesting is that for some it is a great interest but for others it is surprisingly like work, they talk of salaries, bonuses, they long for time off, discuss holidays and more, there aren't that many who dream of riding Paris-Roubaix or care for the history of the Fleche Wallone, it's just a job for many, the alternative is the factory down the road.

They must have loved the sport at some time though i mean who puts in the training they do as youngsters without a feeling for the sport ?

iainf72

Moray Gub wrote:

They must have loved the sport at some time though i mean who puts in the training they do as youngsters without a feeling for the sport ?

Exactly.

All "work" will end up with some people doing well, others less well. The thing with being a pro athlete is that there is a limited career span. Mind you, you find that in other area's too. People don't do "The City" forever as it can get too much eventually.

prawny

Brian Smith was saying the the pro continental team riders have a minimum wage of 30-40k Euros. That's really poor, I thought when he said it about footballers always banging on that they need high wages because their careers are short.

You cant save alot from 30k a year these days

moray_gub

iainf72 wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

They must have loved the sport at some time though i mean who puts in the training they do as youngsters without a feeling for the sport ?

Exactly.

All "work" will end up with some people doing well, others less well. The thing with being a pro athlete is that there is a limited career span. Mind you, you find that in other area's too. People don't do "The City" forever as it can get too much eventually.

The limited carrer span is the main reason guys like Chavanel etc make moves to teams like Quick Step or Gilbert to Silence Lotto The riders may feed the public line about a new team more opportunities etc but mostly its about hard cash and who can blame them really.

Kléber

Moray Gub wrote:

They must have loved the sport at some time though i mean who puts in the training they do as youngsters without a feeling for the sport ?

True and some riders to this day still love the sport. Look at Cavendish in tears in San Remo. But for many the thrill had gone a long time ago, it becomes work and the progression up the ranks is like any other career, only it is a short lived one.

There is a minimum wage for Pro Tour and Continental teams but it's not strictly enforced. As a young rider you might be paid the minimum wage but can be required to bring a sponsor to the team and on some small teams, the declared wage is not the same as the money that finally gets to your bank account, it's common for riders to be paid for nine months a year for example by shyster teams and for people around the riders to demand a share.

teagar

Keeps 'em hungry. As it should be!

flattythehurdler

I wouldn't blame them for taking the best offer at all. I wouldn't want to be a pro rider, even a successful one. Too too hard a life.

knedlicky

Harp wrote:

Got to agree with the above in that it is a pretty poor career choice unless you are in the top teams. It is a hard sport to try and get rich from.
I wonder how it compares to say football, we all hear of the top earners on $%* per week and that maybe equates to the top pro tour teams.
Does the average wage in the English 2nd and 3rd division compare to wages for continental status riders ??

According to a survey about 3-4 years ago, English 2nd division players earn on average about £50,000 a year, not including bonuses. At a successful 2nd division club, bonuses could increase pay by over 60%, so bring it up to £80-100,000.
I’d guess £50-100,000 is about what most ordinary domestiques at average Pro Tour teams get. I think I read Armstrong’s got a bit more, £80-150,000 but they were with one of the more successful teams.

When they were caught for doping a couple of years ago, Jaksche and Sinkewitz were said to be each earning £500,000 p.a.. This surprised me because, although both had moderate success, they weren’t exactly top names. It seems a few good placings can knock your market value right up.

Ullrich, when he was at Bianchi, was earning £2 million, and then on top of that came money from sponsorship deals. I’d guess Armstrong, without sponsorship deals, was earning about the same as a top Premiership player - a list published recently showed about 20 Premiership players get between £5-7 million p.a..
(The average Premiership player earns around £700,000 before bonuses, so in many cases £1 million p.a.).

knedlicky

prawny wrote:

Brian Smith was saying the the pro continental team riders have a minimum wage of 30-40k Euros. That's really poor, I thought, when he said it about footballers always banging on that they need high wages because their careers are short.
You cant save a lot from 30k a year these days

Poor? 30-40k Euros is still more than many skilled/trained people earn, and more than most unskilled/untrained earn. It’s only poor in comparison with top riders or top earners in other sports. Or those in the entertainment business, top managers and specialist doctors.

The argument that professional sportsmen should get good money because their careers are short doesn’t wash with me. There’s no reason why they should be privileged like this when the rest of the world, which you could argue contributes more to society, has to work for less money for a longer time span, some people also having to restructure their life midway through, if they are laid off or there is less call for whatever they trained to be.

skavanagh.bikeradar

I'm with you there. It's a non-argument that the career is short. If you want a longer career, train to do something else instead.

moray_gub

flattythehurdler wrote:

I wouldn't blame them for taking the best offer at all. I wouldn't want to be a pro rider, even a successful one. Too too hard a life.

I would loved to have been a pro rider if only for a season just to see if i could have cut the mustard. My problem is that that i would have been in the same peleton as the Badger and Fignon and Lemond

iainf72

knedlicky wrote:

The argument that professional sportsmen should get good money because their careers are short doesn’t wash with me. There’s no reason why they should be privileged like this when the rest of the world, which you could argue contributes more to society, has to work for less money for a longer time span, some people also having to restructure their life midway through, if they are laid off or there is less call for whatever they trained to be.

They get paid more because they're not a dime a dozen and because of the benefits they bring for their sponsors. Whether they're worth it is another story but I don't begrudge anyone who earns a lot of money.

afx237vi

knedlicky wrote:

prawny wrote:

Brian Smith was saying the the pro continental team riders have a minimum wage of 30-40k Euros. That's really poor, I thought, when he said it about footballers always banging on that they need high wages because their careers are short.
You cant save a lot from 30k a year these days

Poor? 30-40k Euros is still more than many skilled/trained people earn, and more than most unskilled/untrained earn. It’s only poor in comparison with top riders or top earners in other sports. Or those in the entertainment business, top managers and specialist doctors.

<snip>

When you say "other sports" - it's only really football or something completely different like Formula 1. I'd like see what the average salary for a county cricketer or Guinness Premiership rugby player is. I bet it would around the same as a pro-conti cyclist. Maybe even less.

prawny

I'm not suggesting that pro cyclists should get paid as much as footballers no one needs that much money. But are you suggesting that pro cyclists aren't skilled or trained?
I'm fairly sure that I could learn almost any trade but i don't think for a second I'd ever be good enough to be a pro sportsperson.
If there's no incentive for people to become pro cyclists there would be nothing for the likes of us to watch and that would be a damn shame, i'd hate to see the peleton shrink to the few superstars and their team lackys

prawny

Is 30k euros more than most skilled traders earn these days? maybe now the exchange rate has gone down the pan but 2 years ago that would have been what £22-24k my cousin the plumber earns a lot more than that.

dennisn

What is the cost to register? This could be a factor in the lower numbers. Marginal
riders may not want to pay the price these days if they are not at least fairly sure of a
spot on an upper level team.

Dennis Noward

RichN95.

afx237vi wrote:

When you say "other sports" - it's only really football or something completely different like Formula 1. I'd like see what the average salary for a county cricketer or Guinness Premiership rugby player is. I bet it would around the same as a pro-conti cyclist. Maybe even less.

Some googling (as I was interested too) suggests about £55k for rugby and £45k for cricket

Tom Butcher

Yeah I'd encourage any young cyclist with the talent to give it a go. If they get to 23-25ish and it isn't going to happen then that's probably a better age to start training for a career than 17/18 anyway - and I think living abroad and so on would be a tremendous experience and education for any young person.

teagar

Tom Butcher wrote:

Yeah I'd encourage any young cyclist with the talent to give it a go. If they get to 23-25ish and it isn't going to happen then that's probably a better age to start training for a career than 17/18 anyway - and I think living abroad and so on would be a tremendous experience and education for any young person.

Tell that to university admissions. :?

prawny

You can get by without a degree, just need to work hard. As long as you're not tied down with kids and a mortgage you can retrain at any* age these days. I didn't get started in my career until I was 23 I'm doin ok ish and I;m only 26 now.

*Obviously it gets harder the older you get but 25 is still a whipper snapper.

knedlicky

iainf72 wrote:

They get paid more because they're not a dime a dozen and because of the benefits they bring for their sponsors. Whether they're worth it is another story but I don't begrudge anyone who earns a lot of money.

This might be so, but many professional sportsmen (footballers especially) seem to play the ‘short career’ card. And if you say something long and often enough, people stop thinking and accept even the most illogical or misguided arguments.

I don’t begrudge them a lot of money, but that doesn’t mean I think it right or fair, or that I accept the ‘short career’ argument.
But anyway, so few cyclists earn huge amounts, they hardly worth discussing, especially as little of their wage comes from the working man’s pocket.

With footballers, it’s a different matter. Half of Frank Lampard’s reputed salary of £7.5 million probably comes out of the pockets of spectators whose average annual wage is perhaps only £15,000 (the other half of Lampard’s pay coming from what Chelsea take in from TV rights and from UEFA rewards).

knedlicky

afx237vi wrote:

When you say "other sports" - it's only really football or something completely different like Formula 1. I'd like see what the average salary for a county cricketer or Guinness Premiership rugby player is. I bet it would around the same as a pro-conti cyclist. Maybe even less.

I did say ‘top earners’ in other sports, not ‘average player’. But maybe I could have said ‘average player’ based on the interesting info on wages in rugby and cricket provided by RichN95.
Actually I knew what they earn in rugby league was pretty well up there; they get good enough crowds at places like St. Helens to pay well.

knedlicky

prawny wrote:

I'm not suggesting that pro cyclists should get paid as much as footballers no one needs that much money. But are you suggesting that pro cyclists aren't skilled or trained?
If there's no incentive for people to become pro cyclists there would be nothing for the likes of us to watch and that would be a damn shame, i'd hate to see the peloton shrink to the few superstars and their team lackys

I’m not suggesting they aren’t skilled or trained in their sport, and I know a few of them are pretty clever too, like some footballers also are, but I wouldn’t class them the same as the people who studied and/or went through an apprenticeship for a particular profession or trade.
I’m not suggesting that they cease to exist either, because I also enjoy watching them.

prawny wrote:

Is 30k euros more than most skilled traders earn these days? maybe now the exchange rate has gone down the pan but 2 years ago that would have been what £22-24k my cousin the plumber earns a lot more than that.

I know in certain trades, where there’s a shortage of skilled people, good money is paid. And presumably plumbing is one of them. I have a close relative who is an electrician, and he earns well when he has work, but the problem is, he only ever gets taken on for short-term contracts then goes weeks again without work. Another relative is a qualified and trained cook but he doesn’t get up to 20k, despite unsociable hours.