My stupid employers and their stupid ideas

superdry

At least your emplyer gives you some kind of scheme.
I work for a massive gov dept who won't support any scheme.

simple_salmon

I've introduced the scheme where I work; I'm a keen cyclist of many years and I own 7 different types of bike:

We went with Halfords despite complaints from the keen cyclists on the staff; Why? because the scheme is not designed for keen cyclists to upgrade to an all-singing all-dancing carbon beauty; it's aimed at getting non-cyclists to cycle to work and using an easily accessible, non-threatening, well-known high street shop is one way of doing that.

Like it or not many LBS are staffed by people who won't give you the time of day unless you're able to argue toe shimano vs campag debate and this puts new cycliists off - that is not the way to get people riding to work.

Eau Rouge

simple_salmon wrote:

We went with Halfords despite complaints from the keen cyclists on the staff; Why? because the scheme is not designed for keen cyclists to upgrade to an all-singing all-dancing carbon beauty; it's aimed at getting non-cyclists to cycle to work and using an easily accessible, non-threatening, well-known high street shop is one way of doing that.

The scheme is primarily designed to cut the cost to large multi-nationals of employing people in the UK by reducing their NI contributions, which is best done by getting people to buy the shiniest bike they can

While I agree that Halfords is probably less intimidating to a non-cyclist, I'd be worried that if your local Halfords aren't one of the (few?) good ones, they bad experiences frequently documented on cycling forums could be enough to put them off cycling just as quick...

simple_salmon

Eau Rouge wrote:

simple_salmon wrote:

We went with Halfords despite complaints from the keen cyclists on the staff; Why? because the scheme is not designed for keen cyclists to upgrade to an all-singing all-dancing carbon beauty; it's aimed at getting non-cyclists to cycle to work and using an easily accessible, non-threatening, well-known high street shop is one way of doing that.

The scheme is primarily designed to cut the cost to large multi-nationals of employing people in the UK by reducing their NI contributions, which is best done by getting people to buy the shiniest bike they can

While I agree that Halfords is probably less intimidating to a non-cyclist, I'd be worried that if your local Halfords aren't one of the (few?) good ones, they bad experiences frequently documented on cycling forums could be enough to put them off cycling just as quick...

A fair point but mostly positive feedback so far. To be fair the people that post on these forums have much higher expectations from a bike than many new commuters who just want to spend a couple of hundred pounds (or less) on a machine to get from A to B. For them Halfords may suit. I'll review our policy after a two year period and I may change my mind.

DonDaddyD

simple_salmon wrote:

We went with Halfords despite complaints from the keen cyclists on the staff; Why? because the scheme is not designed for keen cyclists to upgrade to an all-singing all-dancing carbon beauty; it's aimed at getting non-cyclists to cycle to work and using an easily accessible, non-threatening, well-known high street shop is one way of doing that.

Fair point. I am using the scheme to get me a £1500, that's not to say I won't commute on it though, I will.

Like it or not many LBS are staffed by people who won't give you the time of day unless you're able to argue toe shimano vs campag debate and this puts new cycliists off - that is not the way to get people riding to work.

Absolute nonsense. If anything LBS like corner shops need support against big faceless organisations like Halfords.

I would, have and always will value the adivce given to me by the local bike shops owned and staffed by knowledgable people who are in general passionate about bikes than some dude in Halfords who has had 5 mins training on what the bike does and how to sell it.

Its like saying you would prefer to buy a diamond from some dude in H.Samuel than a professional jeweller who has been trained to cut, shape and mold the jewellery himself.

I can't believe that someone is actually supporting Halfords over a Local Bike Store :shock:

richprag

UnworthyPapaLazaru wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

That scheme sucks! Are you sure you don't have access to the same bikes as Halfords' scheme?

They all suck. Well, most of them do as they have some restrictions in choice. I was hopeful of using a local shop but got halfords instead. My local shop had a Wilier Mortirolo 08 for 999. I ask halfords about getting this but as it was a sale price it was a no go. The SRP had to be £1000 or under.


Ive made a compramise, but Im going to get an excellent bike regardless.

they cant suck if you have got yourself an 'excellent bike' surely. The scheme is great in my opinion, i've got myself a nice xc hardtail currently for 60% of the price (if not less), and then when the 12 months is up in september i can do it all again and get a lovely road bike. and then the year after i can get something else. suhweet

DonDaddyD, i think the point being made was that the scheme is really to get non cyclists to just ride to work - people who dont care what they ride as long as it goes, who might be put off by LBSs because they see them as specialist and a bit daunting, Halfords is nice and easy. But yeah of course most LBSs are going to be 1000 times better for the discerning bicycle enthusiast.

It is a slight shame however that its dependent on hire agreements and stuff like that. My (very large) company has to get hire agreements sorted with each supplier and sees it as a problem having more than one, so halfords it is. But the only problem with this is that you arent likely to get the level of service and expertise of an LBS or a point of principle, that it isnt supporting local traders.

bigmat

DonDaddyD wrote:

Its like saying you would prefer to buy a diamond from some dude in H.Samuel than a professional jeweller who has been trained to cut, shape and mold the jewellery himself.

Interesting comparison. In truth, a professional jeweller will have bought the diamonds in just like a high street jeweller, but will have a greater degree of knowledge and crucially will offer a far more competitive price.

Your LBS, on the other hand, may be more knowledgeable (don't take it as read) but will usually be a lot more expensive. I like the theory of an LBS - nice friendly knowledgeable shop keeper who is just dying to fine tune your bike and regale you with stories, whilst offering you a great deal. In practice, my experience has been pretty dire and I've found the Halfords across the road to offer a far better service.

Also, I'm betting that a lot of us know a damn sight more about bikes than about diamonds (sadly my wife's engagement ring remains the most expensive block of carbon in our house )

Eau Rouge

simple_salmon wrote:

I'll review our policy after a two year period and I may change my mind.

Hopefully when all the new cyclists the scheme encourages this year have become cyclists, and will now want you to give them the option to go buy shiney expensive bikes.

richprag wrote:

My (very large) company has to get hire agreements sorted with each supplier and sees it as a problem having more than one, so halfords it is.

Ahm, why do they need to get hire agreements? Your hiring the bike, they are buying it.

UnworthyPapaLazaru

richprag wrote:

UnworthyPapaLazaru wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

That scheme sucks! Are you sure you don't have access to the same bikes as Halfords' scheme?

They all suck. Well, most of them do as they have some restrictions in choice. I was hopeful of using a local shop but got halfords instead. My local shop had a Wilier Mortirolo 08 for 999. I ask halfords about getting this but as it was a sale price it was a no go. The SRP had to be £1000 or under.


Ive made a compramise, but Im going to get an excellent bike regardless.

they cant suck if you have got yourself an 'excellent bike' surely. The scheme is great in my opinion, i've got myself a nice xc hardtail currently for 60% of the price (if not less), and then when the 12 months is up in september i can do it all again and get a lovely road bike. and then the year after i can get something else. suhweet

DonDaddyD, i think the point being made was that the scheme is really to get non cyclists to just ride to work - people who dont care what they ride as long as it goes, who might be put off by LBSs because they see them as specialist and a bit daunting, Halfords is nice and easy. But yeah of course most LBSs are going to be 1000 times better for the discerning bicycle enthusiast.

It is a slight shame however that its dependent on hire agreements and stuff like that. My (very large) company has to get hire agreements sorted with each supplier and sees it as a problem having more than one, so halfords it is. But the only problem with this is that you arent likely to get the level of service and expertise of an LBS or a point of principle, that it isnt supporting local traders.

The restirction in choice sucked.

DonDaddyD

richprag wrote:

DonDaddyD, i think the point being made was that the scheme is really to get non cyclists to just ride to work - people who dont care what they ride as long as it goes, who might be put off by LBSs because they see them as specialist and a bit daunting, Halfords is nice and easy. But yeah of course most LBSs are going to be 1000 times better for the discerning bicycle enthusiast.

It is a slight shame however that its dependent on hire agreements and stuff like that. My (very large) company has to get hire agreements sorted with each supplier and sees it as a problem having more than one, so halfords it is. But the only problem with this is that you arent likely to get the level of service and expertise of an LBS or a point of principle, that it isnt supporting local traders.

I get the point being made. I agree with the notion that the scheme is intended to get people a on a bike and not provide the enthusiast a means of getting a carbon wonder.

What I don't agree with is that Halfords is more accessible and less daunting to a non-cyclists than a local bike store. I don't agree that local bike stores are intimidating to a non-cyclist.

How do you think I bought my Giant M2 and got into commuting? I bought it from a local bike store (DeVer) at a time when I had very limited knowledge. I benefitted from the knowledge of the man in the local bike store as oppose to some dude in Halfords claiming "It's a bike, innit!?"

Interesting comparison. In truth, a professional jeweller will have bought the diamonds in just like a high street jeweller, but will have a greater degree of knowledge and crucially will offer a far more competitive price.

Not always, some professional jewellers (not many I admit that) will have if not cut the diamonds shaped the metal the stone is sitting in. But most importantly the customer will benefit from this specialist knowledge.

Along with the professional jewellers knowledge and competive prices the customer will benefit in the jewellers. The professional jeweller doesn't have to start quoting colour D and clarity VVS1 and saying "x number of facet brilliant cut diamond set in white gold held in a 18carat gold band" and then go on to explain the percentage of 18carat gold to 9 carat gold and go on to explain why the former is more valualbe or whatever but at least when he says "Yeah this diamond ring is a good one" you can trust what he is saying.

4 years of selling watches and jewellery and a JET 1 qualification is where the example stems from

Your LBS, on the other hand, may be more knowledgeable (don't take it as read) but will usually be a lot more expensive. I like the theory of an LBS - nice friendly knowledgeable shop keeper who is just dying to fine tune your bike and regale you with stories, whilst offering you a great deal.

DeVer, GB cycles, Edwardes, Brixton Cycles, Herne Hill cycles, Psubliminal, Luciano cycles and Cyclopolis are all like that.

All have been far from intimidating, helpful and some have done on the spot repairs on my bike for less than £20 (or not even charging). Its a myth that you have to be some bike whiz to enter a LBS. They sell to the requirements of the customer not to themselves.

UnworthyPapaLazaru

I went into a LBS once and the guy was an unhelpful fuckin twat. The times I have been in my LHS (Local Halfords Store) including once to order my bike the guys were very helpful. In fact, they were sound, but doesnt mean every single LBS or LHS is the same!

Edit - nice sweary editor! fuckin is ok but tw@ got changed to fool.

simple_salmon

DDD I respect your points and your experience but in my experience of travel planning many people DO find the LBS to be a very intimidating place. You only have to read some of the comments on this forum to realise that not everyone gets the same positive experience that you have had from your LBS.

Like I say, I'll review the policy when our contract expires in 2 years, BUT I will steadfastly defend the point that this is about getting non-cyclists to start to use a bike and I won't be giving in to the cyclists that work here who simply want to upgrade.

If I was prepared to do that I could have set the scheme up to benefit me and I didn't.

I'm prepared to agree to disagree with you on this one

DonDaddyD

simple_salmon wrote:

Like I say, I'll review the policy when our contract expires in 2 years, BUT I will steadfastly defend the point that this is about getting non-cyclists to start to use a bike and I won't be giving in to the cyclists that work here who simply want to upgrade.

On this I agree with you from an employers point of view. You should only endorse the scheme to get people to cycle to work. Using it properly will ensure the schemes longevity...

I however have no obligation to the scheme I just want my Kuota... hurl abuse if you must.

simple_salmon

I musn't

bigmat

GB Cycles and Psubliminal have both been good for me, so has my local Halfords. I think both LBS' and Halfords are hit and miss, bestto approach both with an open mind.

Don, didn't appreciate your level of expertise in jewellery!

il_principe

simple_salmon wrote:

Like I say, I'll review the policy when our contract expires in 2 years, BUT I will steadfastly defend the point that this is about getting non-cyclists to start to use a bike and I won't be giving in to the cyclists that work here who simply want to upgrade.

If I was prepared to do that I could have set the scheme up to benefit me and I didn't.

I'm prepared to agree to disagree with you on this one

Just out of interest, what's the take up been like at your place?

The whole C2W scheme seems a bit narrow minded to me. Yeah of course its ultimate aim should be cycle commuting but where's the harm in helping out keen cyclists to get a new race/mountain bike etc. After all, the government keep banging on about getting people fit...

WE have C2W, I'm considering getting a Pearson Cartouche!

alfablue

I don't see the need for employers or their representatives to make any value judgements, it is a tax break to enable employees (regardless of whether they are already cyclists) to buy bikes which they will use more than 50% for work during the period of hire - that's all there is to it, not for any one to judge what bike they choose, how they like to ride, or if they already have a stable of bikes. Be happy that employers and employees benefit, however they use it.

daniel_owen_uk

Personally I think it should be called, the "on your bike" scheme, why does it matter if people are using their bikes to commute, getting people fit will reduce the strain on our public health system anyway.

Clever Pun

brompton brompton brompton

CiB

LBS come in good and bad sizes, surprise surprise, just like every other type of shop.

See thread over on the other place...

simple_salmon

We've run our scheme twice so far for 1 month each time (we do four per year) and we've loaned about 15 - 20 bikes I think.

From our perspective the reason it needs to be a commuting cycle scheme is that the money that we put into it is ringfenced for promoting sustainable travel to the campus so I have to see a return on that.

Although the scheme is essentially revenue neutral you do need to have the money to put up front and the University is not paying me to spend my time providing benefits for cyclists outside of the workplace - no matter how much I might like to.

Although I would argue that cycles should be tax free, to get the real benefits from a money point of view you need to make the income tax and NI savings so the scheme has to be employer based and most employers are unlikely to implement a scheme that takes time and capital for solely altruistic reasons.

I am surprised that many cycle shops offer TT bikes that cost a few thousand pounds on the scheme; there are hundreds of cyclists where I work and I have yet to see a TT bike in any of our cycle sheds.

I believe personally that if the scheme is 'abused' in this way then we may see the end of it and that would be a shame.

Let me reiterate that professionally I am a transport co-ordinator BUT personally I am a racing cyclist so I can see the arguments from both sides.

Eau Rouge

Why only revenue neutral?
You pay out up front to buy the bikes, but you get all that money back from the employee's hiring the bikes for the year, and the VAT man. You also save 12% of the cost of the bike through your employer NI contributions being reduced by their lower taxable salaries for the year. You could even be cheeky and keep the claimed-back VAT and not pass it on to the employee (as my lot and others I know have done this year)
Thats getting on for 25% of the cost of the bikes into your employers bottom line, no?

The only cost is your time in setting it all up, which I thought was the whole point of the Cyclescheme or Halfords "schemes" that employers didn't have to actually run it.

cyberknight

superdry wrote:

At least your employer gives you some kind of scheme.
I work for a massive gov dept who won't support any scheme.

bet they havent given you a 30 % pay cut though due to the recession