Any Employment Law Experts out there?

Kenjaja1

My employer has asked me to provide proof of my right to work in the UK. As I who was born in the UK of British parents and grandparents and as the holder of a UK passport I have no problem providing the info. However I have grave concerns about the security of this info being held by my employer's personnnel dept.

1) I provided the info (a photocopy of my passport) just over a year ago. It is not in my personnel file and no one can say what has happened to it!! Best 'answer' was "It is probably in a box somewhere" I understand the info for other employees has also gone AWOL, but I am the only one who is being an awkward b*gger about it.
2)On two separate occassions I have found boxes of personnel files left open (and easily accessible) in a corridor when I have been on nights. The management response to my complaint was, "Oh they are only the files of ex-employees". I have told both management & personnel they can see my passport at any time (with 24 hours notice); They cannot have a copy as I do not trust them to take care of my info to prevent Identity Theft.

They keep telling me there is a legal requirement to provide the info (which I fully understand) but do not seem able to provide any sensible assurances about protecting private info.

They are about to get stroppy with me. Where do I stand legally and what should I do next?

GavH

Whether or not they can 'force' you to provide this info, I'm not sure, but iit may well be that they cannot. You need someone who can pore over your contract to see if such an obligation exists contractually.

However, your employer sounds like it is almost certainly in breach of the Data Protection Act by virtue of how they 'store' personal and possibly sensititve info and data.

'Someone' might want to point the Information Commissioner their way. Just in case you know 'someone' who'd want to do that, here is their website: http://www.ico.gov.uk

Crapaud

Try the Citizens Advice Bureau. They probably won't be able to give you a definite answer, but could point you in the right direction.

Have you had a look at the Information Commission Office?:

Data Protection – when and how to complain wrote:

Under the Data Protection Act, those who collect and use personal information have to follow rules of good practice for handling information (called the data protection principles). The Act also gives rights to individuals whose information they collect and use.

Have a good look through this as there's loads of info. This page will probably be helpful.

Kenjaja1

Thanks guys,
That info gives me a starting point.

GAvH - Your point about a written contract is an interesting one 'cos I don't have one! I asked for one when I started (in 2001) but it was ages before they gave me one (I think it was a year). I then refused to sign it saying that as my defacto Terms and Conditions were those which applied and those which were in the staff handbook then I could be signing away rights by signing a complicated legal document like a contract of employment. It would only make sense to sign if I put a lot of time & effort into studying the contract to make sure I would lose no rights by signing - I was not prepared to do that so I refused to sign. Interesting that no one has picked up on this over the years!

Crapaud - Many years ago, when the Data Protection Act was first launched, I was involved in making sure my employer at the time could comply in all ways. Unfortunately it was all such a long time ago that I can remember very little of the painful (but important) detail. I 'll have to do some reading!

I still want to find out about the legislation which says I have to provide proof of my right to work in the UK.

Cheers

sylvanus

Kenjaja1 - As someone who runs their own company and employs a lot of people, I can assure you that your personnel department is at fault if they're not storing records properly - we always keep ours in strong locked fireproof cabinets - I'd suggest you have a simple and constructive chat with the head of personnel and then with the ultimate boss - it sounds like simple sloppiness which they need to be aware of and sort out.

That said you don't sound like the sort of person who's an easy employee and I think you need to be careful in the way you're conducting yourself. If I heard that an employee was refusing to sign a contract of employment then I would interpret that as a resignation and fire them on the spot. I would be extremely careful how you go about questioning policies if you don't do so constructively. A company, like any team or group of people requires individuals to sublimate their ego for the greater good and I can promise you there is nothing more tiresome than dealing with barrack-room barristers.

Human relationships, trust and talented hard-work are what count - not legalistic wrangling about your rights - if there is a problem then make sure you tackle it constructively and you'll be doing your employer a favour. If that constructive approach fails then I'd suggest you look for a new job since you may already have damaged their perception of you - next time remember its you who works for them not the other way around!

Kenjaja1

sylvanus wrote:

Kenjaja1 - As someone who runs their own company and employs a lot of people, I can assure you that your personnel department is at fault if they're not storing records properly - we always keep ours in strong locked fireproof cabinets - I'd suggest you have a simple and constructive chat with the head of personnel and then with the ultimate boss - it sounds like simple sloppiness which they need to be aware of and sort out.
!

There are a number of problems with this. Firstly, when I raised the matter with two senior managers I got two conflicting explanations from two managers and now have enough background info to know that one of them lied about the circumstance (to save himself embarrassment). Both were more concerned to explain what had happened rather than to accept that it should not have happened and to take precautions to prevent it recurring in the future.

sylvanus wrote:

That said you don't sound like the sort of person who's an easy employee and I think you need to be careful in the way you're conducting yourself. If I heard that an employee was refusing to sign a contract of employment then I would interpret that as a resignation and fire them on the spot. I would be extremely careful how you go about questioning policies if you don't do so constructively. A company, like any team or group of people requires individuals to sublimate their ego for the greater good and I can promise you there is nothing more tiresome than dealing with barrack-room barristers.!

You are right that I am not an easy employee and I make no apology for that. I spent most of my working life managing change in large organisations. There is always resistance to change which improves efficiency in some way. Sometimes this came from junior employees and sometimes from directors. However the changes were always to the benefit of the organisation and had to be pushed through. This frequently made me unpopular - but I never took on a project as a popularity contest. Your reference to sublimating egos and barrack room lawyer are offensive and incorrect. My philosophy is, and has always been, if something is capable of improvement then it should be improved. When an aspect of the enterprise is substandard then I will campaign relentlessly until the standard is acceptable. That effort will include working with anyone who is supportive, discussing with intelligently expressed opposition but being critical of both the Luddite and apathy lobby.
Your comment about sublimating ego for the greater good is something I find very sad for many reasons. In my experience, much more is achieved by encouraging individuality and harnessing it so that you get the best for everyone and the best for the organisation. Some of my best allies in effecting efficiency improvements have been the downtrodden individuals who have seen their ideas rejected or ignored. There has been more than one occasion when such people have been a source of information and suggestions and then are amazed when they are given full credit for their input and support. In a large organisation the ‘Greater Good’ which is striven for is usually the parochial objective of a small group or individual with enough political clout to have won such an expensive luxury.
To me “Sublimating ego for the greater good” are words which could have been spoken/written by Karl Marx, Stalin, Hitler or quite a few others with grandiose, but failed, ideas

My point about the employment contract was that no one has ever actually noticed that I have not returned a signed copy. I regard that as a major failing. It was also a major failing that it took so long to send me a simple piece of paper in the first place and that my requests were ignored.

sylvanus wrote:

Human relationships, trust and talented hard-work are what count - not legalistic wrangling about your rights - if there is a problem then make sure you tackle it constructively and you'll be doing your employer a favour. If that constructive approach fails then I'd suggest you look for a new job since you may already have damaged their perception of you - next time remember its you who works for them not the other way around!

The 'rights' you refer to are not mine but those of all employees of the company. The vast majority are not aware of the indifference with which their confidential information has been treated. I do not propose to broadcast the failings to these people as I do not want to alarm them. I will however push at any and all levels until the required improvements are made. Your assertion that I work for my employer and not the other way around is also not totally correct. I have shares in the company as do many colleagues. This should mean that we all look on the company as our own and act in the best interests of Customers, Shareholders and employees. I try to serve the best interests of all three groups and rarely, if ever, see a conflict of interest. What I do see from a significant minority is too much time and effort spent in serving self interest and too little application towards supporting customers, shareholders and employees.

As a final aside I’ll refer to your comment about running your own company. I started my own company from scratch in an area I knew nothing about. It was a highly competitive line of business and I built up and ran the company for about 10 years. I was successful by studying the competion and not doing things in the same way. I was successful because I did things differently

cee

Kenjaja1

I am not really understanding why you didn't pore over the 'contract' they eventually supplied and then either signed it, requested it be changed, or rejected it.

I got my contract before even starting work for my current employer and pored through that. Not to check for discrepancies in other employee material, but simply so that I fully understood both my obligations and rights with respect to my working relationship with the company.

s-worksenduro

I thought that the Data Protection Act only covers unencrypted data stored on computers, so if they are being sloppy with the hard paper copies, I'm not sure what to do.

chuckcork

I would think that your company would have the right to request proof that you can legally work in the UK, just because you say you were born here etc and have worked for your company for x years would not in the event that you were not allowed to work in the UK, be good enough to stop your employer from being prosecuted.

I think you'll find now that most employers when advertising jobs, particularly for government actually make it particularly clear that providing proof of the right to reside and work in the UK is a condition of employment.

Look down at item 21 here for the legal basis of this.

NB I have to do this too, as a naturalised Brit!

Kenjaja1

cee wrote:

Kenjaja1

I am not really understanding why you didn't pore over the 'contract' they eventually supplied and then either signed it, requested it be changed, or rejected it.

I got my contract before even starting work for my current employer and pored through that. Not to check for discrepancies in other employee material, but simply so that I fully understood both my obligations and rights with respect to my working relationship with the company.

The point is that my employer did nothing for about a year (in spite of several requests). So when they did eventually send me a contract I was not prepared to spend time on it. Signing could have been to my disadvantage.

passout

s-worksenduro wrote:

I thought that the Data Protection Act only covers unencrypted data stored on computers, so if they are being sloppy with the hard paper copies, I'm not sure what to do.

I thinkthat you are right the 1984 act is aimed at electronic information.

Kenjaja1

The original act wasaimed at computers but it was updated (or superseded) about 10 years ago and, if I understand correctly, it is now more concerned with the data and less with the medium on which it is stored so paper files are now included

alfablue

There is no need for an employment contract, the only legal requirement is a statement of particulars. Failing to sign a contract is not a de facto resignation. If an employer dismissed someone for failing to sign a contract I think there would be a case for unfair dismissal. In the circumstances, your employer is on a sticky wicket on their data protection policies. I would write to the MD and state that I was happy for him/her or an appropriate person to view my passport but under the circumstances (that you do not trust them to protect your identity data) you are unwilling to provide a photocopy. Then leave the ball in their court. Your letter will show that you acted reasonably and should they attmpt to bully you for not complying with their wishes, then you have a record of what may have triggered subsequent events should the worst happen.

spen666

I suspect that employer may be under a legal duty to have EVIDENCE that a person is entitled to work in UK.

I also suspect that the concerns held re their data security may be held to be valid.

sylvanus

Your comment about sublimating ego for the greater good is something I find very sad for many reasons. In my experience, much more is achieved by encouraging individuality and harnessing it so that you get the best for everyone and the best for the organisation. Some of my best allies in effecting efficiency improvements have been the downtrodden individuals who have seen their ideas rejected or ignored.

I'd completely agree with you if by individuality you mean individual creativity and ideas - committees seldom create much of any use and some organisations can have a terribly stifling effect on really good ideas. That said some companies can crush creativity and ensure they fail by their stalinist and incompetent structure. From what you say it may be that your company falls into that group and if so, I would give up - it will never change until the management changes and I don't think you'll be able to manage that! Working for a company is not like marriage, a lifetime commitment, its a temporary contract (signed or unsigned) and if you hate it then I should leave and find another job - it simply isn't worth bashing your head against an unyielding wall - good companies have very frank exit interviews where material is gathered to assess senior managers and the company as a whole - that is probably your best hope of being heard.

nwallace

s-worksenduro wrote:

I thought that the Data Protection Act only covers unencrypted data stored on computers, so if they are being sloppy with the hard paper copies, I'm not sure what to do.

It now covers any structured holding of data, that would include a filing cabinet, box etc.
A paper form is structured data, which a photocopy of a passport holds due to the fact it is a copy of a form.

IIRC you must have been given a written contract once you have worked for over 3 months for the company (it's possibly only if you request it), also (IIRC) with employment contracts the rule of the playground applies, saying nothing means you agree. But you seem to have verbally rejected it, the options from which are to offer alternative terms or punt you. I wouldn't liek tobe in that position right now.

redvee

13 weeks is the time period for a contract from your start date. My last employer sent mine with confirmation of me getting the job.

dilemna

Although you haven't signed your contract the terms within it may now well be implied given you and your employer have maintained your working arrangements. Most employment contracts refer to the organisation's Employee handbook being incorporated into the contract. You are entitled to a job description. A contract of employment will also indicate the hours you are supposed to attend the company and rates of pay and if any over time is paid and at what rate. Without this you could easily be taken advantage of. Simply refusing to sign and then not addressing those points you deem to be unacceptable won't make them go away. Your employer may well take the view that by continuing to attend your place of work you have impliedly given consent to your contract of employment. A reasonable time scale would be applied here I think. Anyway being there over 1 year you automatically have the rights of unfair dismissal. A contract would also detail notice periods for termination of your contract on either your or the employer’s part and severance.

You do sound bitter toward your company as if they are conspiring against you, without even taking into account the Data Protection issues. I would have thought in this current economic climate it would be prudent not to rub people up the wrong way and certainly not push people into a corner in effect forcing issues and no doubt not doing your approval ratings any favours. Don’t force them to fire you. You might think you have the moral high ground which indeed you might well occupy, but they could fire you for other reasons if you make their life too uncomfortable such as on grounds of capability or a fundamental and irretrievable break down in the employment relationship. May be you have a stash of cash that you can fall back on if you lose your job. If it were me I wouldn't be rocking the boat too much at this time. Take on board some of the other posters' comments about diplomatically making your points in a constructive manner. Try to avoid conflict. You are the one who will come off worse.

sazzledazzle

I also (carefully!) refused to hand over my passport to my employer - I guess I just like to think there's a little part of my life they have no right to. My company also asks us not to visit certain countries and to register where we are going on holidays so this may be partly why I got so annoyed by the whole thing.

Anyway - essentially they have a legal requirement to prove you have the right to work here, but the documentation needed to satisfy this does not have to be your passport. I was able to use a combination of NI card and other documents that are all already available to anyone who wants to pay for them on the internet.