Ideal for commuting Hybrids vs Road bikes

DonDaddyD

roger merriman wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Most road bikes (the best) are about saving weight. Cantilever brakes (if that is what you have on your hybrid) are the lightest form of brake you can have (two cables tugging at brake pads). They are found on CX bikes (most likely becuase the simplicity of the design makes the braking system less susceptible to damage caused by mud, dirt etc). If they were better than caliper brakes and are lighter why are they not found on road bikes at the top level?

cycle cross brakes are mini v's and seem to be troublesome judging the interweby. they aren't normal road brakes as they would struggle to clear the tires, and would clog with mud.

road brakes are often about weight than power, campagnolo uses weaker brakes on the rear for weight savings, road bikes are almost always lighter than hybrids and MTB yet a good road bike is always going to suffer in comparison to a good MTB or hybrid. V brakes and disks are seriously powerful brakes at least the good ones are, cheap ones as you'd imagine are not.

I stand corrected.

itboffin

Rockbuddy wrote:

This indeed is a redundant question, you can't really compare road specific bikes (racers) to inbetweeners that have been dubbed 'hyhbrids' for want of a better term. The only way a roadie is better is on the road with someone cabable riding it. With a hybrid you have everything from an mtb-like bike to the bikes which are basically roadie without the drops. So logically with that amount of versitility and no definition of commuting terrain, distance, weather etc. I would say that for commuting the closest thing to an allrounder is a 'hybrid', which could mean just about anything.

How many of the people who voted road bike do training / competitions outside of their commute. I also bet alot of you serious roadies have an mtb or hybrid, which you would use in really bad weather instead of the prefered road bike. Am I wrong?

Yep, we have single speed and or fixed gear bike for winter/summer in-between :P

Sewinman

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

I really can't be bothered to argue with the self-appointed expert on a beginners guide to commuting. My Hybrid stops on a six pence and i don't care why.

To quote Attica

"Your arguments, sir, are eloquent and persuasive"

:roll:

Perhaps not so expert after all then. Thought as much.

lost_in_thought

Rockbuddy wrote:

This indeed is a redundant question, you can't really compare road specific bikes (racers) to inbetweeners that have been dubbed 'hyhbrids' for want of a better term. The only way a roadie is better is on the road with someone cabable riding it. With a hybrid you have everything from an mtb-like bike to the bikes which are basically roadie without the drops. So logically with that amount of versitility and no definition of commuting terrain, distance, weather etc. I would say that for commuting the closest thing to an allrounder is a 'hybrid', which could mean just about anything.

How many of the people who voted road bike do training / competitions outside of their commute. I also bet alot of you serious roadies have an mtb or hybrid, which you would use in really bad weather instead of the prefered road bike. Am I wrong?

Yep, you are about the hybrid I'm afraid! Well, of the road-bike-commuters from here who I know, anyway. Many of them have a roadie as well as a SS roadie-shaped bike, or perhaps a winter roadie that's less nice - the SS or the winter roadie might be a nasty weather bike, the SS in my case. I don't know that any of them have an MTB or a hybrid, I sure don't.

I have a cruiser that I almost never ride because I have a weird sentimental attachment to it.

TBH, it's a bit of a pointless argument. Those who own a hybrid do so because they think hybrids are better, for whatever reason. Those who have a roadie do so because they think roadies are better, for whatever reason.

I'm part of the latter group, so I disagree with a lot of what you're saying in the first bit of your post, but then I would!

itboffin

DonDaddyD wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Most road bikes (the best) are about saving weight. Cantilever brakes (if that is what you have on your hybrid) are the lightest form of brake you can have (two cables tugging at brake pads). They are found on CX bikes (most likely becuase the simplicity of the design makes the braking system less susceptible to damage caused by mud, dirt etc). If they were better than caliper brakes and are lighter why are they not found on road bikes at the top level?

cycle cross brakes are mini v's and seem to be troublesome judging the interweby. they aren't normal road brakes as they would struggle to clear the tires, and would clog with mud.

road brakes are often about weight than power, campagnolo uses weaker brakes on the rear for weight savings, road bikes are almost always lighter than hybrids and MTB yet a good road bike is always going to suffer in comparison to a good MTB or hybrid. V brakes and disks are seriously powerful brakes at least the good ones are, cheap ones as you'd imagine are not.

I stand corrected.

Not all CX brakes are mini V some are cantilever with koolstop pads very nice if a little pricey and my cross front fork is drilled for caliper brakes, some even come with disc brakes.

Now i've built more confidence in the canti's i'm actually getting the same sort of speed from my CX as my road.

If I can complete a couple of sportives on the CX without too much discomfort then the road will go.

roger_merriman

Eau Rouge wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

campagnolo uses weaker brakes on the rear for weight savings,

and becuase you should only be using your front brake anyway...

http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

or learn how to modulate both brakes, and shift weight. but yes for most front brake does almost all of the work,

Roastie

DonDaddyD wrote:

WGWarburton wrote:

... Because most bikes are sold as sports equipment, not transport, few of them come with mudguards.
...

In my view, selling bikes with mudguards would make them much more useful (albeit a little less fun) for the majority of cyclists. You have to be quite keen, organised or both to use a bike without mudguards for everyday transport.

Cheers,
W.

Not having mudguards riding in the road in winter (I've done it) is not enough not to buy a road bike. My bike with 105 components and carbon seatpost is sold at around £900 - commuting bike terms that's the upper end of the cost spectrum and you can fit mud guards to it.

There is also the option of race blades alll of which I ignored and may continue to do so for my commute.

If i was riding across mud and soil then yes mudguards. But then I'd have a different type of bike.

For an everyday bike, I cannot understand why anyone would not have guards. Roads are very dirty. I'm not a big fan of being sprayed with road muck every time it rains (which it does a fair bit on this fair isle).

To me commuting isn't going to work but rather riding your bike to get around. I don't want to have to dress up specially every time I go out (and carry clothes to change into) just to make sure I don't end up at my destination with a brown stripe up my trousers for going through a puddle (you do encounter wet patches on sunny days!).

Again it goes back to aesthetics I believe, but personally I'd rather have a dry bottom, and save water being driven into my frame and headset than look cool but have a wet bum and waterlogged frame.

DonDaddyD

Sewinman wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

I really can't be bothered to argue with the self-appointed expert on a beginners guide to commuting. My Hybrid stops on a six pence and i don't care why.

To quote Attica

"Your arguments, sir, are eloquent and persuasive"

:roll:

Perhaps not so expert after all then. Thought as much.

I haven't claimed to be an expert, I also didn't know you needed a qualification to talk about such things. All I have done, and if you removed the chip from the shoulder/bee in your bonnet and took the time to realise, is try to make a thread that acts as a guide to others who hope to get into commuting. Many people come here and ask what bike, what equipment etc. Now they have one place to get that information and if you took the time to look past your point you'd realise that that thread is constantly evovling and changing.

Once I accepted I was being bias towards road bikes I took this section out of that thread and made this one for fun. Of course its redundant, its the best way to get people arguing, debating and saying silly things. Surprisingly its been quite informative.

I am always up for a debate but equally am Man and mature enough to accept being corrected, afterall I am no expert and have been commuting (at this level) for less than a year. All I am is an enthusiastic about cycling, always have been since I was a child, its just that I now have the money, freedom and time to indulge that enthusiasm.

That said, for the purpose of this discussion if you can't or don't won't to defend you opinion and support them with factual examples, fine. You don't have tot post or particpate. You can always take part in another thread or walk away from the PC entirely but don't start making assumption of myself. I have done nothing wrong.

CiB

I've tried to keep out of this as it's pretty much an irrelevance. People will largely defend what they ended up buying, whether by choice or salesmanship in the shop. I commute on a road bike as it's quite a way, and my hybrid is horrible. The roadie makes me want to do more miles, the hybrid makes me think I'll take the car, even to the shops. It has occurred to me before that cyclists who buy the £59 special offer from Cycle King will never move on, as their experience of cycling will be that it's hard work, uncomfortable and plain unenjoyable. They probably won't have enough enthusiasm to make the leap from the gutter end of the market to a 7-8-9-15 hundred pound road machine that opens up a whole world of cycling joy.

Rockbuddy wrote:

How many of the people who voted road bike do training / competitions outside of their commute.

Did one sportiv about 20 years ago and didn't enjoy it. Haven't bothered since.

Rockbuddy wrote:

I also bet alot of you serious roadies have an mtb or hybrid, which you would use in really bad weather instead of the prefered road bike. Am I wrong?

The roadie is the steed of choice whatever the weather. If it gets dirty it gets cleaned [eventually] and if it's wrecked, result - I want a new bike anyway.

I'm not knocking you RockBuddy, just stating that a road bike can be - doesn't have to be - the perfect commuter bike. Mine is - it's dead comfy, I can ride it for hours, take detours to take in a couple of decent climbs on the way home, and on the flat it just floats along, 23-28mph is just no big effort. I wouldn't even contemplate commuting on the hybrid.

Roastie

itboffin wrote:

Not all CX brakes are mini V some are cantilever with koolstop pads very nice if a little pricey and my cross front fork is drilled for caliper brakes, some even come with disc brakes.

Now i've built more confidence in the canti's i'm actually getting the same sort of speed from my CX as my road.

If I can complete a couple of sportives on the CX without too much discomfort then the road will go.

1. Lower end 'crossers tend to have those awful "mini-Vs" because they are cheaper (but also nigh on useless for competitive 'cross because they jam with mud).

2. Disc braked 'crossers are really nice, but there aren't that many because sadly they are not UCI legal.

3. Like you allude to, canti's vary greatly in quality and power. "Low-pro" cantis tend not to be so great as they lack leverage. Wide cantis (like Frog Legs, there are others) are the bomb.

Kieran_Burns

Roastiecp wrote:

itboffin wrote:

Not all CX brakes are mini V some are cantilever with koolstop pads very nice if a little pricey and my cross front fork is drilled for caliper brakes, some even come with disc brakes.

Now i've built more confidence in the canti's i'm actually getting the same sort of speed from my CX as my road.

If I can complete a couple of sportives on the CX without too much discomfort then the road will go.

1. Lower end 'crossers tend to have those awful "mini-Vs" because they are cheaper (but also nigh on useless for competitive 'cross because they jam with mud).

2. Disc braked 'crossers are really nice, but there aren't that many because sadly they are not UCI legal.

3. Like you allude to, canti's vary greatly in quality and power. "Low-pro" cantis tend not to be so great as they lack leverage. Wide cantis (like Frog Legs, there are others) are the bomb.

having never understood the variety of brake types available fully, I'd be interested to know what type my Tricross 2009 Sport have (mainly as I have no problem stopping whatever position my hands are in)

Roastie

Kieran_Burns wrote:

having never understood the variety of brake types available fully, I'd be interested to know what type my Tricross 2009 Sport have (mainly as I have no problem stopping whatever position my hands are in)

Mini-Vs. Now I regret using the term "awful" :oops:.

They are perfectly OK for road use (and are probably a pref. option for touring), but have mud blocking issues for competitive cross.

What works (and is required ) in competition doesn't neccesarily translate for everyday use - so I thinking about it again, mini-Vs are perfectly fit for purpose.

gethin.norman

this is starting to get a little stupid (although it is always enjoyable to watch an argument). Based on the oracle that is wiggle there are the following classifications of bikes:

* BMX Bikes
* Cyclocross Bikes
* Folding Bikes
* Full Suspension MTBscoordination
* Hard Tail MTBs
* Hybrid / City Bikes
* Kids Bikes - Under 9
* Road Bikes
* Road Bikes - TT
* Single Speed Bikes
* Touring / Audax Bikes
* Youths Bikes - Over 9

now under this classification it is easy to argue that, depending on ones commuting distance, size, weight, fitness, ... many of the other will be far superior to "road bikes".

Being happy riding what ever bike seems to be all that really counts.

Initially I was going to outline the merits of a bmx, but i need to work...

snooks

For my commute I'd like a flat bar road bike to commute on

I'd like the speed of my road bike with the maneuverability of my slicked MTB.

I can cut through traffic faster on my mtb without the risk of loosing my knuckles, and cover my brakes at the same time.

My slicked MTB is bomb proof, my road bike isn't.

Road bikes might be a bit twitchy for new riders, I'd rather buy my GF a bike she is comfortable with rather than force her onto a road bike that she might scare herself with

wgwarburton

gethin.norman wrote:

this is starting to get a little stupid (although it is always enjoyable to watch an argument). Based on the oracle that is wiggle there are the following classifications of bikes:

* BMX Bikes
* Cyclocross Bikes
* Folding Bikes
* Full Suspension MTBscoordination
* Hard Tail MTBs
* Hybrid / City Bikes
* Kids Bikes - Under 9
* Road Bikes
* Road Bikes - TT
* Single Speed Bikes
* Touring / Audax Bikes
* Youths Bikes - Over 9

now under this classification it is easy to argue that, depending on ones commuting distance, size, weight, fitness, ... many of the other will be far superior to "road bikes".
..

...and in my book a number of the other clasifications are road bikes!

I have three bikes at the moment- a Tourer, a lightweight fixie and a fixed winter hack.

They are all "road" bikes, yet according to the above, none of them are.

We're arguing over semantics and classifications, I feel.

...oh, and if you are looking for good brakes, look no further than a high end touring bike... Controlling and stopping a loaded touring bike on an alpine descent needs powerful, controllable braking... on a Road Bike, no less...

Cheers,
W.

il_principe

Rockbuddy wrote:

How many of the people who voted road bike do training / competitions outside of their commute.

Not sure that man of us do. I train and sportive (to sprtive without training is somewhat foolish!) Sportive's aren't supposed to be competitive though.

Rockbuddy wrote:

I also bet alot of you serious roadies have an mtb or hybrid, which you would use in really bad weather instead of the prefered road bike. Am I wrong?

Wrong on my count. I have 3 roadies:
Winter roadie
Summer Roadie
SS commuting/transport Roadie.

Roadies can deal with bad weather as effectively as MTB's/Hybrids. I cycle on the road exclusively so no need to compromise with anything else.

Rockbuddy

OK, ok so seems I am wrong about the closet mtbs and hybrids...

As everyone is saying it comes down to the personal choice and preference.

My point (obviously poorly put forward) was that the answer the question "ideal bike for commuting" has to be hybrids unless you get specific about the commute, i.e. the right bike for the right route. Commuting could cover anything from tarmac only to total off road (ok this end probably less well travelled). I used to commute down the taff trail to Cardiff (which includes a couple of miles of chewed up off road half way down), I couldn't have done this on a road bike (actually did it on a mtb but that's not on the list).

I'm not anti-road bike, infact I recently bought the bottom of the range Giant (defy 4) as my commute is now all road and I wanted it to be a little easier. However, if I wanted to commute my old route I'd still take the mtb as the roadie would be redundant. There is no ultimate answer but roadies aren't an all round bike, they're for the road, therefore cannot be an all round commuter.

nation

I always wonder what kind of bike the sustrans people have in mind when they map out their "traffic-free" cycle routes.

I've explored a few of them round here (on an MTB) and wouldn't want to tackle them on a road bike.

Rockbuddy

nation wrote:

I always wonder what kind of bike the sustrans people have in mind when they map out their "traffic-free" cycle routes.

I've explored a few of them round here (on an MTB) and wouldn't want to tackle them on a road bike.

If you look at the sustrans website it definately gives the image of mtbs and hybrids. Although round cardiff the paths are generally quite good a few roadies on them. Just a few sections of off road fun to join up the paved paths

Roastie

Rockbuddy wrote:

How many of the people who voted road bike do training / competitions outside of their commute.

I race but I voted Brompton (because frankly I really want one somethin' BAYD :shock: ).

jimmypippa

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Sorry to throw another spanner in the works, but frankly (and seriously for a change) I think my CX bike is a better choice than any of the options above.

You get road bike geometry, almost the same speed, extra comfort from the thicker tyres (and clearances to use them and mudguards), and the ability to cover poor roads, good roads, off road with ease.

I know I've joked about this, but I seriously think that a CX bike is THE ideal commuter.

My brother is looking for a new bik, I suggested he looked into CX...
Do you have any ideas?

Maybe next year: 7,000mi on the hybrid, and I can justify trading up then. (you jhave also seensome of my alternative commute routes too)

stuaff

You seem to have started quite a debate here, DDD. Whilst some of your points are sound, I'd have to agree with those that are saying it's down to personal choice and preference (and plenty of people, for whatever reason, buy the wrong bike for their needs- doesn't matter if it's a supermarket BSO or TDF replica if it's not right for you!).

On certain of your points, I'd have to take issue:
I've never had discomfort on either of my flat-barred bikes, even on little jaunts like 60 miles round the IOW last year (Ergon grips work). And you haven't mentioned choice of materials etc. Whether it's carbon, steel, aluminium, titanium, something else, there's a lot the designers and builders can do to dial in certain characteristics and make them suitable for different uses (like Specialized's Roubaix and Tarmac models).
'Bigger wheels are better for riding long distances, smaller wheels are better for accelerating'. I won't disagree with the second part- physics dictates that (assuming similar/identical tyre type, wheel construction, etc) a smaller wheel accelerates faster due to lower drag and lighter weight, but conversely bigger wheels have more inertia, and therefore momentum. My two are about the same speed, though, overall (the Cadenza lets me have a lower position, makes up for the slightly heavier weight). And as for touring etc: piffle. Ever heard of Dr Alex Moulton and his creations? Plenty of people use Bromptons for touring, Dahon do the Speed TR (as in tourer).
Panniers and load carrying: Where can one find a carbon-fibre framed touring bike? Where are the pannier mounts on a Trek Madone?

And by far the biggest impediment to any bike's speed is the rider. A case in point: I'm out the other day for a morning ride on my Jetstream. Guy comes steaming past on a Kiron Scandium. Why was he faster, exactly?
Lower aero and mechanical drag? His drop bars & skinny tyres would have the edge despite my smaller wheels- wearing 40mm Schwalbe Marathons, for one thing, plus my riding position was less favourable. So a bit there.
Weight? My bike's about 11kg, up a couple of kilos on stock thanks to a SRAM DualDrive hub (nearly a kilo on its own), mudguards, those Marathons..So definitely a factor, he'd have maybe three kilos if not more advantage.
Gearing efficiency? That DD hub would add a bit of drag, otherwise equal.
The bloke on top: Me, 35, scrawny (5' 10 and a bit & 59 kg), puffing away, him....not. If he was on a BSO he should still be able to match if not beat me!

OldSkoolKona

Oh dear. As someone mentioned earlier this has turned into the new helmet/RLJer thread and I've avoided commenting until now. In my opinion, for a beginner, a road bike is not the best option to start on the road commuting with, and I'm speaking from experience from Mrs OSK here and a long time cycling. Everyone's situation is different, and it depends on your commute and what you are comfortable with, but in general, a hybrid bike is much better for a beginner to start off with and provides much more flexibility in terms of use.

I'm worried that this thread and the Beginners guide threads have the intention (whether intentional or not) stating that commuting on road bikes as being the be all and end all and have too many personal opinions vested in them as facts. Two things worry me about this - one it detracts from the mixed bag that the Commuting Forum is which makes it a fun place to hang out. Also, it has the potential to put people off commuting because they don't have the 'right bike'.

My experience? Well I commute on a slicked up Rigid Mountain Bike. Back in the day, this was also my moutain bike, and I swapped the tyres over at the weekend (5 min job) and for races. I didn't have the money or the space to have more than one bike. Over the past 5 years my commute has varied from fully off road (on what joy 8) ), to a mixture to now a 30 mile round trip. The mountain bike gave me the flexibility across all these uses, and I've selected my tyres based on the type of commute.

As time has gone on, I now have a garage and can afford to spend a bit more on my bikes, so I now have a new mountain bike and I converted my old Mountain Bike to my dedicated commuter. It has my lights and mudguards permanently attached, it is robust, particularly during winter commuting, and it is old enough that it doesn't attract too much attention from bike thiefs (touch wood). I recently bought a road bike, my first one in 20 odd years of cycling. Its good fun, but its not used for commuting, more for training rides and group rides at the weekend.

I am now getting Mrs OSK into cycling and towards commuting by bike and I wouldn't dream of throwing her in at the deep end with a road bike until she builds up her road confidence. And I think this hits the nail on the head. The original guide to Commuting Thread is great for existing cyclists who want to commute (and for whom in a lot of case the commute is an extension of their cycle training). It isn't geared up for beginners who want to try out commuting for the first time or to use their bike more frequently, to pop down to the shops for example.

If you want a real revolution in cycling in the UK, its these beginners, sadly often referred to as fair weather cyclists (a term I believe we should refrain from using on this thread) that we should embrace on this forum, something that I belive until recently we did very well until we got sidetracked on this argument about what type of bike you ride. I love cycling to work, its the best part of my day, and I want as many people to discover just how great it is to cycle to work.

Bassjunkieuk

+1 For OSK comments about just getting more people on bikes - look at it this way, each person that decides to take up cycle commuting is one less person in a car or on some sort of public transport :-)

I think it has been made fairly clear during this thread that this isn't a one size fits all situation.
After I wrote off our 3rd family car the wife refused to put me on the insurance for the new car I ended up getting a bike for commuting to work. At the time I was working for a local PC retailer and could in theory have got there on PT but that would have meant needing to catch a bus then a tram!

Not wanting to spend mega money (having had to spend out on a new car!!!) we duly headed off down to Halfords and thats how I came to own the Apollo Abyss MTB. Even tho my commute would have been completely on road (with the occasional bout of kerb hopping!) I wanted a bike that I could also take out over the park with the kids. As I was also much younger (this is about 7 years ago!) I was also quite naive and impressed by the fact that I could get a full sus, disc braked MTB for such little money - oh how wrong was I, you really do get what you pay for! Having said that the bike is still (just) running and if I actually bothered to devote some time to it and replace the chain and some cabling I've sure it would run quite well again. This along with the fact that it has the hitch on for the kids trailer means that it won't be going anywhere for a while yet!

After I changed jobs the MTB got consigned to the garage and only got brought out during the summer for rides with the kids, it wasn't until I got a new position at work that meant I was going to be site rather then field based that I took up cycle commuting proper. It was around this time that I was considering this that I was fortunate enough to find a kind gent over in Greenwich offering up a road bike on Freecycle. I can still remember the morning that I read that mail whilst eating breakfast and fired off a reply shortly after. A response later that day confirmed the bike was mine (and some kids bike once the wife arrived to collect with my tribe in tow!). I'm not quite sure why I made the transition straight from MTB to road bike for a London commute. I guess it was because I had previously been cycle commuting before but only over short distances and didn't really want to lug my MTB over the 10+ miles to town.

I went out for a few rides on the first road bike before I took it into town. I can safely say tho that after the first few trips I was hooked! The sensation of speed and ease of progress was a quantum leap forward over the MTB and this was on a rather old bike (steel framed Raleigh I think). After about 9 or 10 months of commuting on this bike and completing the city leg of the London Bikeathon (and keeping pace with guys on MUCH more expensive bikes :-)) it was decided a new bike would be beneficial and so I got the SCR 3.0.

My wife did get a bike with the intention of using it for getting round and she does have a hybrid. It's nothing fantastic, think it was an ebay special, but it does the job. It was two wheels that will let you travel forwards if you put a bit of pressure on the pedals. I've even used it a few times for my commute when the roadie has been in for repair. I wouldn't say it was any less capable of completing the commute and from what I can remember by end to end journeys weren't much different time wise but I just didn't have as much fun on the hybrid! I guess this is because I've become rather accustomed to my road bikes more aggressive riding position and willingness to accelerate! Also having got used to riding on the hoods and covering brakes it felt a bit weird riding with the more typical handlebars but as I wasn't going very far it didn't get to the point of being uncomfortable.