Sportive Time Standards (Gold/Silver/Bronze)

athers08

How are these calculated?

Are there any standards set for the Cheshire Cat?

BaildonBob

Calculated to cause maximum pain. Probably by Mr T.

Philip Whiteman

There is no actual standard used for calculating events. In some cases it is the organiser sticking their finger up into the air and guessing.

Phil W of the Epic events have use a model formula for his three events using a calculation from continental sportives. Some other organisers use it too. Phil kindly sent me the excel sheet for this calculation and I have used it on a number of occasions to plan training routes.

GeorgeShaw

Do you fancy sharing that spreadsheet with us?

Philip Whiteman

GeorgeShaw wrote:

Do you fancy sharing that spreadsheet with us?

Just PM me with your e-mail address and I will happily forward it on.

attica

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

http://www.stuweb.co.uk/race/kp#D2220/

Fifth place for me. Gutted to miss gold by such a small margin, but seriously, there were only 3 people capable of gold on a day with not too much wind and weather pretty much in the goldilocks zone?

bathpaul

Attica wrote:

not too much wind and weather pretty much in the goldilocks zone?

Who were you riding behind for the last 15 miles then?

And I've never had to pedal DOWN Cheddar Gorge before......

TheStone

athers08 wrote:

How are these calculated?

As far as I can tell, it's fairly random. I don't take any notice of them, but occasionally sort the times (if possible) and see where I've finished relative to everyone else. It's a good indicator of whether you're getting better ... or not!

bikergirl17

think relative works best... esp on rides that have a single time -- no differentiation for M vs F or age bands. even if it is a guesstimate by the organisers, no way getting around a 100 mile course within two hours of a 25 year old guy.

attica

bathpaul wrote:

Attica wrote:

not too much wind and weather pretty much in the goldilocks zone?

Who were you riding behind for the last 15 miles then?

And I've never had to pedal DOWN Cheddar Gorge before......

Nope, didn't really notice a headwind, me and a mate were riding through and off for most of the flat stuff in those last 15 miles - did notice an awesome tailwind going up the Axbridge bypass though, never ridden so fast up that drag before. The wind seemed to keep swinging about but it was never really strong though.

Back on topic
Very interested to see the spreadsheet mentioned earlier in the thread. Surely distance and climbing need to be taken into consideration at the least

attica

bikergirl17 wrote:

think relative works best... esp on rides that have a single time -- no differentiation for M vs F or age bands. even if it is a guesstimate by the organisers, no way getting around a 100 mile course within two hours of a 25 year old guy.

Hadn't even thought of the differentiations needed for age or gender, good point.

Le Commentateur

Some will have to allow for adverse weather conditions on a challenging course, so for example the Marmotte "gold" times are relatively easy when the weather is good.

Le Commentateur

bikergirl17 wrote:

think relative works best... esp on rides that have a single time -- no differentiation for M vs F or age bands. even if it is a guesstimate by the organisers, no way getting around a 100 mile course within two hours of a 25 year old guy.

Unless that youngster hasn't the experience to pace himself and "attacks" every climb, running on empty for the latter part of the ride.

Pumpkin Positive

It's good to be able to compare so that you can get some idea as to your standard of fitness but most organisers only provide times in PDF so you cant easily organise them in a spreadsheet (nervous about it looking too much like a race). Also the results are pretty meaningless without time mats at the course extremes; many people sign on for the 'epic' and switch to the 'fun' route midway.

giropaul

Attica wrote:

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

http://www.stuweb.co.uk/race/kp#D2220/

Fifth place for me. Gutted to miss gold by such a small margin, but seriously, there were only 3 people capable of gold on a day with not too much wind and weather pretty much in the goldilocks zone?

I think that someone needs to tell organisers that publishing a finish order for a "race" like this, and heading it "race results" is really begging for trouble.

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/ ... elines.pdf
Para 2 . 8 - Yes I know all events aren't BC approved, but this is here for a good reason - specifically so that the event is legal within the terms of the Cycle Racing on Highways Regulations.

Le Commentateur

It may be outside the control of the organizer if they have hired a timing company that, for example, normally does competitive events such as triathlons and whose software is listing results like a race.

Personally I think in this age of mass ownership of garmins people should time themselves and use strava for comparison purposes. The timer chip thing is just another pampering element used to inflate the prestige of the event.

DaveMoss

giropaul wrote:

I think that someone needs to tell organisers that publishing a finish order for a "race" like this, and heading it "race results" is really begging for trouble.

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/ ... elines.pdf
Para 2 . 8 - Yes I know all events aren't BC approved, but this is here for a good reason - specifically so that the event is legal within the terms of the Cycle Racing on Highways Regulations.

sorry if this over pedantic, but I think we should be clear on this.
Racing a vehicle on public roads is illegal, a vehicle would be a bike, motor bike, car, milk float etc.
However, the Cycle Racing on highways regs overide this in certain circumstances, i.e if the race complies with the regs. with the numbers involved in most sportives, they would never comply with the terms of these regs so could never become legal under these regulations.
However, it's not illegal to ride your bike, even if your timed over a set course;therefore sportives are not illegal unless the police/ prosecuter decide it's a "race", in which case, in theory, all those taking part and the organiser could be prosecuted. ( so the point you are making is perfectly correct, and I suppose I am just being pedantic). As far as I know, even closed roads events like the etape caledonia could not be legal if deemed to be a race. It's probably fortunate that it has never been put to the test as to when an event becomes technically a race, but if you havn't complied with the racing regulations, it's probably a bad idea to refer to your event as a race or talk about a winner. I think, though, that it's probably now established through custom and practice to publish times in order and it not thereby become a "race".
I suspect we are getting away with sportives not being decreed races (and therefore banned, since then they could never be made legal under current laws) through weight of numbers and no real desire by the authourities to stop us.

The BC rule might be for insurance purposes more than anything, and that is something for organisers to be aware of, publishing "race" results might invalidate the insurance (but it might not).

interesting to ponder on this thought, to many it's probably obvious that new legislation is required to regulate sporives and other mass rides on the roads; yet we are manageing fine without any laws; perhaps the anarchists are right.

We do hear of police dictating maximum numbers on some events. What powers do they have to do this? Is it the laws that were brought in to control sectarian marches?

Stedman

DaveMoss wrote:

giropaul wrote:

I think that someone needs to tell organisers that publishing a finish order for a "race" like this, and heading it "race results" is really begging for trouble.

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/ ... elines.pdf
Para 2 . 8 - Yes I know all events aren't BC approved, but this is here for a good reason - specifically so that the event is legal within the terms of the Cycle Racing on Highways Regulations.

sorry if this over pedantic, but I think we should be clear on this.
Racing a vehicle on public roads is illegal, a vehicle would be a bike, motor bike, car, milk float etc.
However, the Cycle Racing on highways regs overide this in certain circumstances, i.e if the race complies with the regs. with the numbers involved in most sportives, they would never comply with the terms of these regs so could never become legal under these regulations.
However, it's not illegal to ride your bike, even if your timed over a set course;therefore sportives are not illegal unless the police/ prosecuter decide it's a "race", in which case, in theory, all those taking part and the organiser could be prosecuted. ( so the point you are making is perfectly correct, and I suppose I am just being pedantic). As far as I know, even closed roads events like the etape caledonia could not be legal if deemed to be a race. It's probably fortunate that it has never been put to the test as to when an event becomes technically a race, but if you havn't complied with the racing regulations, it's probably a bad idea to refer to your event as a race or talk about a winner. I think, though, that it's probably now established through custom and practice to publish times in order and it not thereby become a "race".
I suspect we are getting away with sportives not being decreed races (and therefore banned, since then they could never be made legal under current laws) through weight of numbers and no real desire by the authourities to stop us.

The BC rule might be for insurance purposes more than anything, and that is something for organisers to be aware of, publishing "race" results might invalidate the insurance (but it might not).

interesting to ponder on this thought, to many it's probably obvious that new legislation is required to regulate sporives and other mass rides on the roads; yet we are manageing fine without any laws; perhaps the anarchists are right.

We do hear of police dictating maximum numbers on some events. What powers do they have to do this? Is it the laws that were brought in to control sectarian marches?

Sorry but your argument that a sportive is not a race I do not beleive is as clear cut as you wish to identify. If the sportive event is basically a modified audax just with signs and feed stations then I agree with you, however if you add timing with time targets which are clearly above the BC 18 mph average speed limit then this aspect has not been firmly tested in the form of case law.

Ultimately the Cycling Racing on Highway Regulations description of a “bicycle race” as a race or trial of speed between bicycles or tricycles not being motor vehicles, which is not a time trial.

Arguably if there are fast time standards set for an event to aim for, then it could legally be argued (without any change of legislation), that this is a trial of speed.
There are more eminent contributors on this forum with specific legal knowledge who also have a similar view.

Because of bureaucracy involved, I suspect that both parties (police and organisers) are currently turning a blind eye to the detail within the Cycling Racing on Highway Regulations, however if timed sportives are identified as races, my assessment is that most organisers will no longer run these on open roads. Ironically I suspect that it is because of the Cycling Racing on Highway Regulations that timed sportives have not been stopped, but without this specific legislation I am sure this practice would already have been halted.

richa

Stedman wrote:

Arguably if there are fast time standards set for an event to aim for, then it could legally be argued (without any change of legislation), that this is a trial of speed.

It is difficult to define what a race is or isn't. As it really comes down to Substance over Form. Even an Audax has time standards (i.e. minimum speeds).