Hincapie
mainly to the people who trash him...think an apology is needed as he did good work for Cav yesetrday and helped a Brit get a monument, a 40 year wait. Or is he still crap in finales and a liar/doper?
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I've never trashed him but I did raise an eyebrow when he won the Pyreneen mountain stage to Pla d'Adet in the Tour de France. As I posted before, one reason behind his move to High Road was a desire to leave certain methods and practices behind.
He was playing a role similar the one also done by Paolini for Pettachi or Tossato for Boonen in MSR, a relatively humble role, as don't forget he was almost being touted as a Grand Tour winner at one point.0 -
Kléber wrote:I've never trashed him but I did raise an eyebrow when he won the Pyreneen mountain stage to Pla d'Adet in the Tour de France. As I posted before, one reason behind his move to High Road was a desire to leave certain methods and practices behind.
He was playing a role similar the one also done by Paolini for Pettachi or Tossato for Boonen in MSR, a relatively humble role, as don't forget he was almost being touted as a Grand Tour winner at one point.
What was humble about yesterday?
:shock:
haven't seen alll the footage of the descent off the poggio, but did see Hincapie head backward, collect Cav...and then lead him out...looks like he played a major role in that win. I never read that his reason for going to Columbia was to leave certain methods and practices behind-implies an admission of guilt...which have not seen from him. Thought he left cause Disco folded and Astana deal had no come together yet0 -
Dave_1 wrote:mainly to the people who trash him...think an apology is needed as he did good work for Cav yesetrday and helped a Brit get a monument, a 40 year wait. Or is he still crap in finales and a liar/doper?
I've always liked George. Seems like a genuinely nice fellow. I may revise that after him helping Cavendish win
But here's a question : If someone helped someone win a race and that person had, over the years, used steroids / HGH / whatever but was now riding clean, would that cheapen the victory?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:Dave_1 wrote:mainly to the people who trash him...think an apology is needed as he did good work for Cav yesetrday and helped a Brit get a monument, a 40 year wait. Or is he still crap in finales and a liar/doper?
I've always liked George. Seems like a genuinely nice fellow. I may revise that after him helping Cavendish win
But here's a question : If someone helped someone win a race and that person had, over the years, used steroids / HGH / whatever but was now riding clean, would that cheapen the victory?
whats your problem with Cavendish?
answer to question. No - why would it?0 -
iainf72 wrote:Dave_1 wrote:mainly to the people who trash him...think an apology is needed as he did good work for Cav yesetrday and helped a Brit get a monument, a 40 year wait. Or is he still crap in finales and a liar/doper?
I've always liked George. Seems like a genuinely nice fellow. I may revise that after him helping Cavendish win
But here's a question : If someone helped someone win a race and that person had, over the years, used steroids / HGH / whatever but was now riding clean, would that cheapen the victory?
only if it LanceA he helped win. Andyp and Monty Dog...get on here guys....you have a strong record of posting against Hincapie, so come on here and show your respect for the man for what he helped cav do yesterday0 -
He did fantastic work for both Cavendish and Lovkvist on differing terrain in T-A. He's found his niche now and he's one of the best at it.0
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George did what he did best and, in this respect, is still at the top of his game.
A top class domestique motor, a la Jens Voigt.
However, he has had problems shouldering "leadership" duties.
Sure, he has been very unlucky in the classics, with "mechanicals" and "placement" issues.
The 2006 Tour was certainly a bridge too far.
Let him thrive, in the autumn of his career, nurturing another "star in the making".
Give him his head in PR, but don't weigh him down with the expectations of the favourite."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
TakeTheHighRoad wrote:He did fantastic work for both Cavendish and Lovkvist on differing terrain in T-A. He's found his niche now and he's one of the best at it.
as if it's his first time helping others win :shock:0 -
Regarding George, I have no doubt he's a decent guy, but this time every year, the USPS/Disco PR machine and the numerous US-based websites used to crank into action with predictions about his abilities to win Paris-Roubaix, Flanders or even more bizarrely Liege-Bastogne-Liege. I have no doubt he possesses a good engine, (his victory a Plat D'adet is a testimony to the work of Dr Ferrari and never taking a pull) but like Sean Yates, he never struck me as having the 'killer' instinct e.g. towing Cippolini all the way to the finish at Ghent-Wevelgem or sitting-in on Boonen into the velodrome at Roubaix. Great classics riders possess one thing - they win races and have the palmares to prove it - Hincapie has a testimony to the other - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, unless you count Ghent-Wevelgem or DePanne, mere filling in the sandwich between Flanders, Roubaix and Amstel Gold.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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Monty Dog wrote:Regarding George, I have no doubt he's a decent guy, but this time every year, the USPS/Disco PR machine and the numerous US-based websites used to crank into action with predictions about his abilities to win Paris-Roubaix, Flanders or even more bizarrely Liege-Bastogne-Liege. I have no doubt he possesses a good engine, (his victory a Plat D'adet is a testimony to the work of Dr Ferrari and never taking a pull) but like Sean Yates, he never struck me as having the 'killer' instinct e.g. towing Cippolini all the way to the finish at Ghent-Wevelgem or sitting-in on Boonen into the velodrome at Roubaix. Great classics riders possess one thing - they win races and have the palmares to prove it - Hincapie has a testimony to the other - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, unless you count Ghent-Wevelgem or DePanne, mere filling in the sandwich between Flanders, Roubaix and Amstel Gold.
to be fair he's had snapped stems, broke collabones and Boonen has been just exceptional...able to sprint among the best in the world but strong enough to ride the one days well... but fair enough...he has blown it at times too. I hope he wins one...he deserves it...and seeing him dropping back on the descent of the poggio for Cav...looking back...gotta take out hats of to that...he's also quite old so his finish won't be what it was.. and had to make do without a strong classic team at times...had he ridden at Mapei and Quick Step...am sure he'd have had one0 -
I see LA describing the Sunday Times as pitiful for ignoring cav's win....got to say, the media in the UK, their ignorance of cycling is a fecking disgrace...what can be done to make the idiots take notice of cycling?0
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What Monty Dog said.Monty Dog wrote:Regarding George, I have no doubt he's a decent guy, but this time every year, the USPS/Disco PR machine and the numerous US-based websites used to crank into action with predictions about his abilities to win Paris-Roubaix, Flanders or even more bizarrely Liege-Bastogne-Liege. I have no doubt he possesses a good engine, (his victory a Plat D'adet is a testimony to the work of Dr Ferrari and never taking a pull) but like Sean Yates, he never struck me as having the 'killer' instinct e.g. towing Cippolini all the way to the finish at Ghent-Wevelgem or sitting-in on Boonen into the velodrome at Roubaix. Great classics riders possess one thing - they win races and have the palmares to prove it - Hincapie has a testimony to the other - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, unless you count Ghent-Wevelgem or DePanne, mere filling in the sandwich between Flanders, Roubaix and Amstel Gold.
Hincapie is a solid rider who wins the odd race but he is not a 5 star candidate to win Classics or, as some loons predicted, the Tour. Yesterday he did the job he was paid to do and, as always, he did it well. He's a solid domestique.
But come Flanders or Roubaix you'll see the expectations crank up only for Hincapie to disappoint again because he doesn't have that killer instinct to pull off the big wins.0 -
iainf72 wrote:But here's a question : If someone helped someone win a race and that person had, over the years, used steroids / HGH / whatever but was now riding clean, would that cheapen the victory?
I would say 'no', interesting question though. You could ask the same re: his mentor Erik Zabel who rode the course with Cav and gave advice.
Again, I would say not cheapened.0 -
I just meant this one time potential "grand tour winner" and classics contender was reduced to towing a sprinter through the bunch, that the guy is on the same level as Tossato, Paolini or Rasch, a more modest role than his previous billing.Dave_1 wrote:What was humble about yesterday? :shock:0 -
Kléber wrote:
I just meant this one time potential "grand tour winner" and classics contender was reduced to towing a sprinter through the bunch, that the guy is on the same level as Tossato, Paolini or Rasch, a more modest role than his previous billing.Dave_1 wrote:What was humble about yesterday? :shock:
reduced? to the lead group at Milan San Remo...high up over poggio..., he could have had a result himself ...of course his climbing was in TDF 05 was a big surprise...and upon that performance one was left wondering he if could repeat it in 06...he and others read too much into it...and of course...a few on here said it was down to him doping-not proven yet, nor is your view that Hincpaie moved to Columbia to make a break from the past - but......what value is there in cav's win if it greatly enabled by a person you think uses doping? you'll be a bit quieter then eh...cause it's not Lance
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I'm not saying he didn't do a good ride, it was very good but it was Cavendish who made the difference. Paolini, Tossato, Fisher, Rasch all did similar jobs for their riders, but Pettachi, Boonen, Bennati and Hushovd couldn't compete with Cavendish and Haussler.
Hincapie started the 2006 Tour de France several kilos lighter than before with real GC aims but yes, the experiment failed.
As for riders benefitting from doping, if he doped in the past then applying this rule to racing today would be more than a minefield given the extensive doping, it would disqualify practically every win if a rider who won had a team mate who rode for a suspect outfit.0 -
Kléber wrote:I'm not saying he didn't do a good ride, it was very good but it was Cavendish who made the difference. Paolini, Tossato, Fisher, Rasch all did similar jobs for their riders, but Pettachi, Boonen, Bennati and Hushovd couldn't compete with Cavendish and Haussler.
Hincapie started the 2006 Tour de France several kilos lighter than before with real GC aims but yes, the experiment failed.
As for riders benefitting from doping, if he doped in the past then applying this rule to racing today would be more than a minefield given the extensive doping, it would disqualify practically every win if a rider who won had a team mate who rode for a suspect outfit.
Cav possibly couldn't have won without a rider of Hincapie's ability and generousity...what other riders as good as Hincapie would put themself at the service of another when they could win too? Big George is too much of an all rounder...sure and getting on a bit...but he's now helping in delivering Britain some of it's biggest wins in cycling....I hope he gets a big win soon...he deserves it0 -
That's where we differ. I don't think he's as good. If he was Hincapié or Heinkapper, he would not be seen as favourably, he gets a lot of publicity in the English-speaking media. Not to say he is not good, he is a first rate domestique and has done this job for most of his career. Who's to say his numbers don't come up on the grim roads to Roubaix?Dave_1 wrote:what other riders as good as Hincapie would put themself at the service of another when they could win too0 -
I understand that there are all sorts of alterior Discovery-related motives behind either considering Hincapie overhyped in the English-speaking cycling world or not. But in Flanders Hincapie has defintely been considered a contender for a Paris-Roubaix win for a couple of years by people who do know a bit about cycling. Not anymore, but that he does some domestique work in San Remo and on Montelupone now doesn't mean that anything more than domestique work is beyond him. Basso, Nibali and Sylvain Chavanel have been busy doing domestique work these weeks.0
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Kléber wrote:
That's where we differ. I don't think he's as good. If he was Hincapié or Heinkapper, he would not be seen as favourably, he gets a lot of publicity in the English-speaking media. Not to say he is not good, he is a first rate domestique and has done this job for most of his career. Who's to say his numbers don't come up on the grim roads to Roubaix?Dave_1 wrote:what other riders as good as Hincapie would put themself at the service of another when they could win too
Roubaix and Flanders are two days a year...even in the last 6 he's been fit...that's 12 days in a year where everything must work perfectly..and in a weak team. I think it is unfair to judge too harsh. he's led the TDF, 2nd in prologue, won hilly stage at dauphine...3rd in Flanders and 2nd in roubaix...he mush more than a decent domestique...but is an easy target as he's so part of the Disco/Armstrong era so a target. Also, he is English speaking so we read much more on him cause of it-again is it his fault?0 -
Hincapie's problem as a classics rider is his lack of initiative. He'll wait for others to make the moves then follow them rather than attacking himself. He's suffered in the past from other riders in his team going on the offensive and then he has to play the role of dutiful team mate. If, for once, he actually made the move rather than waiting for it he might get that elusive big win.
He deserves it for sure but he's running out of time and is now up against younger, stronger rivals like Boonen and Cancellara.0 -
The same applies to Boonen, Cancellara, Ballan et al. Yet they've managed to win at least one cobbled monument.Dave_1 wrote:[Roubaix and Flanders are two days a year...even in the last 6 he's been fit...that's 12 days in a year where everything must work perfectly..and in a weak team.
I don't buy the weak team argument either, he had a strong line up of support riders when he was at Discovery (Boonen, Hoste, Gusev, Ekimov and Hammond for example).0 -
andyp wrote:
The same applies to Boonen, Cancellara, Ballan et al. Yet they've managed to win at least one cobbled monument.Dave_1 wrote:[Roubaix and Flanders are two days a year...even in the last 6 he's been fit...that's 12 days in a year where everything must work perfectly..and in a weak team.
I don't buy the weak team argument either, he had a strong line up of support riders when he was at Discovery (Boonen, Hoste, Gusev, Ekimov and Hammond for example).
I remember everyone saying the team revolved around LA and saying it was why Boonen left...infact yourself it was I think who argued so, now you don't buy the argument so much I think it is easier for Boonen, had had a seriosuly good finish, cancellera...he's much better than Hincapie. 0 -
Didn't the post start by congratulating him on doing a lot of work to help Cav win MSR?
I'm not commenting on his classics pedigree, 'cos all I wanted to say was that he impressed me on Saturday by getting over the Poggio in a good position then sitting up and waiting for Cav0 -
Yes and he did a good job but it was Cavendish that made the difference. If Haussler and Rasch had towed Hushovd into position, or Paolini set up Pettachi, would they get the same praise?
Hincapie is an excellent rider. In many ways he is like Chavanel, a big hope for the US/France, highly paid, a generator of a lot of column inches but ultimately, despite all the hype, reduced to snatching moments of glory in between towing his sprinter into the lead.
The victory was really down to Cavendish, his phenomenal power in the closing metres was the key factor, no one else could have done that. But someone else could have towed the Manxman into position.0 -
To be honest George has been and always will be a super-domestique. This season is looking like it might be one of his best, but personally i think thats more to do with him relishing looking after Cav on the road. Its what his role is now, he's the captain of the team, the old man.0
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I'm far too cynical to really care about Big George. It's hard to believe he wasn't part of the Postal system, given how regimented and well drilled that squad was. I'll leave my admiration for less tainted riders.0
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Theres probably not too many to admire then to be honest from that generation.0
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Never been a fan of Chin Happy, I'm not going to play catch up to be one of the "in crowd".
I am sorry if it appears I have not apologised.0
