crash on way home

balfie

I hurt right now. fractured collar bone, just about got through the skin, and cuts bruises etc and a dead sore head. was going home from work, down a quiet private owned road with a good descent. overtook a jcb went round the corner at the bottom to find that they had put a fence across the road - a big one of steel mesh with concrete bollards anchoring it. hit it at about 30kph with my head. there were no signs, nothing. no idea that a fractured clavicle hurt that much.1st day out for good weather on slcarbon. anyway, blue light to hospital and now killing pain with whisky and endorphins , typing 1 handed. question is what should i do? there were witnesses. took the entire fence out with my head. i'm in scotland, so nae english lajavascript:emoticon(':cry:')w advice! i'm gonnae get drunk now.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

But how is the bike?

On a serious note, if you have witnesses to back you up, surely there is a claim here...

Pictures, or even better, a movie clip of the appraoch to the obstacle (to show like of warning signs)
Pics of the obstacle
Pics of your injuries
Witness reports
Pics of the bike
Quote from LBS for cost of repair?

Kieran_Burns

You really need to get evidence, are the Police involved? Did you get witness details?

Did anyone from the site anything that may prove culpability?

I'd get someone down there first thing in the morning taking photos before they have chance to (re)move anything

alfablue

It is a private road, however, the public are entitled to access a private road unless there is a barrier in place to prevent this. The people responsible for a private road will be responsible for damages caused by disrepair (and presumably unsigned hazards). The slight fly in the ointment is that you crashed into the barrier that may have been intended to block access, however I would expect this to be properly signposted, and the positioning around a corner is negligent and is probably in breach of the owners duty of care. I think you should sue them for every penny, but I think you need legal help, contact the CTC or a solicitor experienced with cycling claims.

balfie

thanks for all replys, i appreciate your advice and sympathy. will post again tomorrow. going to bed now - pain tolerable after excellent bottle of red and df118.woooooooooooo.

always_tyred

Isn't the notion of "private land" different in Scotland? There's no law of trespass, I know that much. Other than to trespass is to wear slightly disappointing outdoor garments.

Where did it happen, btw? Within reach for some snapsots with a camera phone? I wonder if a damaged fence with hole shaped like you and no signage would be as much as you would need.

Clever Pun

ouch.... hope you heal up ok, sounds horrific

were you wearing a helmet?

il_principe

Bad luck fella! Get out to the scene (or send a mate) and photo the site, damage, your bike etc. Contact the CTC and the police etc.

Wish you a speedy recovery.

Christophe3967

Bad luck, but at least you're in one piece, just.

Get well quickly.

Bad news all round this evening....

benno68

Sounds like a bad one! Hope you make a quick recovery.

If the police didn't go to the scene at the time of the incident, I'd give them a call first thing and make a complaint, taking photo's of the scene is a good idea. The paramedics should be quite easy to trace as witnesses for the road layout, lack of signs etc.

Keep everything, by that I mean your helmet and clothing etc., don't throw them away.

I'd instruct solicitors to take it from there, you may be better off instructing a firm familiar with Scottish Law. They should obtain witness statements and consider if a claim is is worth pursuing, they will also get medical reports from the hospital and probably obtain an expert medical report later on to indicate how severe and long lasting your injuries are.

I'm not a lawyer but I reckon you have a good case! The beers are on you when you get your compo!!!

roger_merriman

if it's a private road, not sure you'll have that much of a case. by your own comments you where going too fast to stop, if some one wants to put a gate or fence across they can assuming they allow any rights away though, if your riding that fast you can't stop, then thats too fast.

i do hope you heal soon but i think any legal action might well fail under the "you shouldn't be going so fast" line and to be honest i would tend to agree.

benno68

I think it's best left to an injury lawyer to determine whether liablity can be proved against the land owner and or contractors.

"In a past UK case a court used certain rules to decide whether the location of the accident could be considered a public road. It was decided that if members of the public could access it without obstructions, such as barriers / notices that they were not permitted, and without prior appointment, the road would be considered public.

This was found to be the case, as anyone could visit the industrial estate. It was therefore deemed to be a road for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act 1988."

I think this was an English/Welsh case and I'm not sure if Scottish law follows the same principals.

Have a good day everyone.

alfablue

The term "private" in private road merely denotes that the upkeep of the road is the responsibility of private individual(s), rather than denoting whether the public have access or not. The Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 defines a private road as anything other than a public road (helpful) but the distinction is made regarding duty to upkeep the road rather than access rights.

A right of way for the public in Scotland will be presumed if the road or route meets certain conditions: any defined route over which the public has been able to pass unhindered for at least 20 years. The route must link two "public places", such as villages, churches or roads. This is looser than the laws in England and Wales, so the rights to access are greater. Unless specifically prohibited, I would expect you had the right to use this road, and that it should be maintained in safe condition by those responsible for it.

See a lawyer, any way.

The Chingford Skinhead

Get well soon fella - I had an off on wed in way to work and damaged shoulder ligaments but doesn't sound as sore, graphic or spectacular as yours. All the best for your recovery

jedster

Nasty, Get well soon.

May be too late for you but, everyone, if you get a bang on the head, don't go and get drunk, seriously.

You need to be alert to the possibility of delayed concussion, cranial bleeds etc. Just read about Natasha Richardson. The last think you need is to be drunk until you are CERTAIN that your bonce is OK.

J

AndyOgy

With regard to all the comments about the implications of it being a private road, you should have the law on your side. I used to work in construction and heard of many cases where scumbag chavs would break into building sites at night, injure themselves by twatting about with dangerous machinery. They then sucessfully sued the building firms for not making the site secure enough.
If the law helps people like that but not people like you then it's a pretty sorry state of affairs.

davmaggs

I do admit that a fence makes my comments below seem harsh, but here goes.

Firstly how is it someone elses fault that a cyclist was going so fast that he ploughed into a large stationary object? You overtook on or near at corner at 30kph and would have just as likely run into a stationary lorry (doing the works). If you can't see around a bend, then you have to slow down. Surely we haven't become so trained by H&S that every hazard needs to be signposted and we assume that it the absence of this we can do what we like.

On a second point why is it every time someone has a mishap various people on the forum immediately leap to the compensation advice? If you lose earnings or suffer damage to equipment then it might be needed to offset that, but often on the forum it seems to the first thing everyone leaps to.

woodford2barbican

davmaggs wrote:

I do admit that a fence makes my comments below seem harsh, but here goes.

Firstly how is it someone elses fault that a cyclist was going so fast that he ploughed into a large stationary object? You overtook on or near at corner at 30kph and would have just as likely run into a stationary lorry (doing the works). If you can't see around a bend, then you have to slow down. Surely we haven't become so trained by H&S that every hazard needs to be signposted and we assume that it the absence of this we can do what we like.

On a second point why is it every time someone has a mishap various people on the forum immediately leap to the compensation advice? If you lose earnings or suffer damage to equipment then it might be needed to offset that, but often on the forum it seems to the first thing everyone leaps to.

I more or less agree - does depend a bit on how close to corner the fence was situated...

but if I was used to a road I would not go slow round a corner I was used to incase anything was in the way.

benno68

I agree that in certain instances people get compensation where it's not due, look at AndyOgy's post above for instance. In the past, I have refused to provide a witness statement for a taxi driver who "suffered injuries" after a minor bump in which I was a passenger in the same vehicle!

However, poor Balfie has been cycling along this road on previous occasions and has come across a dangerous obstruction with no warning signs which has caused him pretty bad injuries. I reckon a car or truck would be easier to see than a "mesh" type fence.

I'm new to the forum so haven't seen the other posts jumping to the compo advice.

always_tyred

It was an unlit MESH fence. We don't know how high. We haven't really got any appreciation of the road layout. Really very difficult to judge the indicent, I would say.

alfablue

davmaggs wrote:

I do admit that a fence makes my comments below seem harsh, but here goes.

Firstly how is it someone elses fault that a cyclist was going so fast that he ploughed into a large stationary object? You overtook on or near at corner at 30kph and would have just as likely run into a stationary lorry (doing the works). If you can't see around a bend, then you have to slow down. Surely we haven't become so trained by H&S that every hazard needs to be signposted and we assume that it the absence of this we can do what we like.

On a second point why is it every time someone has a mishap various people on the forum immediately leap to the compensation advice? If you lose earnings or suffer damage to equipment then it might be needed to offset that, but often on the forum it seems to the first thing everyone leaps to.

Do you go around every blind bend in your car at 20mph in case there is some unforeseen obstruction? If you don't, I don't think it is fair to criticise a cyclist doing 20mph.

A stationary parked lorry would equally be negligently positioned around a blind bend, the highway code says 242
You MUST NOT leave your vehicle or trailer in a dangerous position or where it causes any unnecessary obstruction of the road. and do not park on a bend.

An unexpected hazard does need to be signposted. A road purports to be a clear route for drivers/cyclists and pedestrians, if it is not clear then a sign is expected - these seem to be rather popular:







one or more of these (or other options) would have helped prevent the collision.

Compensation is due because the chap is badly hurt and will suffer losses associated with the collision,; a collision that appears to be the result of negligent behaviour on the part of the people responsible for the road. Why on earth should anyone suffer a loss due to negligence of a third party and not recoup that loss?

I am at a loss!!!!!!

roger_merriman

if a bend is blind enought and the road narrow enought then yes 20mph or lower is needed even in a car, few around my folks place.

on a downhill a car is likely to beable to stop sharper than a bike.

it will be up to prove that the land owner etc, was a fault there maybe very good reasons to have that fence there, and it maybe reasonble to assume that traffic will not crash into it, (as ever with forums no idea of the layout of the road) on the other hand it might be a dreadfully sited fence.

always_tyred

roger merriman wrote:

if a bend is blind enought and the road narrow enought then yes 20mph or lower is needed even in a car, few around my folks place.

on a downhill a car is likely to beable to stop sharper than a bike.

it will be up to prove that the land owner etc, was a fault there maybe very good reasons to have that fence there, and it maybe reasonble to assume that traffic will not crash into it, (as ever with forums no idea of the layout of the road) on the other hand it might be a dreadfully sited fence.

Wasn't there a jcb nearby? If so, could the fence have been something to do with road works? Look, the OP said that he went down there every day and one day it was basically trip-wired.

Was he seeking compensation or expert advice?

Give a guy a break, he's on morphine and has a compound fracture, and you REALLY don't have enough information about the scene to pass summary judgement (by "you" I mean "you" collectively, not anyone in particular).

robmanic1

Always Tyred wrote:

(by "you" I mean "you" collectively, not anyone in particular).

Hey, don't drag me into this!

always_tyred

Robmanic1 wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

(by "you" I mean "you" collectively, not anyone in particular).

Hey, don't drag me into this!

No, you are "them".

robmanic1

Always Tyred wrote:

Robmanic1 wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

(by "you" I mean "you" collectively, not anyone in particular).

Hey, don't drag me into this!

No, you are "them".

No no, I'm "US".

salsajake

alfablue wrote:

Do you go around every blind bend in your car at 20mph in case there is some unforeseen obstruction? If you don't, I don't think it is fair to criticise a cyclist doing 20mph.

agree that there should be signs and it is an offence to cause a needless obstruction (I got ticketed once for parking right where the double yellows ended, thinking it was OK, but apparently it was still too close to the junction. They couldn't answer my question of why not just continue the double yellows back further then, but in the end I had to agree that it wasn't the best place to park, so paid up.

But as to not going round blind bends at a speed in which you can stop, on a car or bike, you have to slow down! I did the IAM test, and they use something called limit point analysis - any road leads to a 'point', next time you are out, think of it and it makes sense. As you approach a blind or tightening bend, the point gets closer to you, the idea is that you slow down to keep the point the same distance from you, then as the corner opens up, the point 'walks', then 'runs' away, and you apply the power accordingly. The police are taught to drive in a similar manner I believe. Because you never actually should reach the 'point' you should not be able to hit anything in the road in front of you. Applies to bridges and crests as well as corners.

In the circs, it is likely to be contributory negligence from the rider here (or the scottish equivalent) which would reduce any compo awarded, but that is something the rider mght accept?

balfie

what an interesting bunch of replies! thanks all for your concern. A couple of answers though;
Im ashamed at not wearing a helmet. its the first day in over 3 years that I forgot it in the morning.
| know the road very well. It was the road to/ from work for many years. It's a steep descent, and bendy. I had come down there, passing a jcb working at the side of the road halfway down and i've spoken to the driver today. he says that he shouted to me that the road was closed, but i heard nothing. i came round the bottom bend and braked a bit because the bottom section is potholed. i kept my eyes down on the road and looked up as i hit the fence. it was a panel fence made of steel mesh. there were absolutely no warning signs in any shape, form or fashion. i was doing 24 kph.
next confession; as a trained nurse, i knew exactly what was wrong as i staggered around swearing loundly and i also know that i was very lucky. it would also seem that the major damage is a taco'ed front wheel. i'll get it checked.
thank you all again for your concern. any further action and i'll keep you posted.
"lang may yer lum's reek"
davie

AllTheGear

Sorry to hear about your crash Davie.

I have to second salsajake's comments. A drivers or riders stopping distance should never be further away than they can see, implying you slow down more for sharper corners. I'm IAM trained too, but in the past I have hit a log in the dark and crashed head-first - it was out of sight round a bend. At least I didn't damage my £60 helmet which was safe at home.

While no-one would expect something to be moving towards them on their side of the road, that fence could have been a broken down vehicle.

Many riders would have crashed in that situation I'm sure. But I can't really see how it's the landowners fault I'm afraid.

Anyway, what I really want to know is, (and sorry if I sound callous) is the SL Carbon ok? I have one myself and am a bit paranoid about how strong it may or may not be.

Hope you're back on the bike soon...

prj45

Little sympathy from me.

When riding a bike, or driving a car, or even just running you're not supposed to go faster than a speed at which you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear.

You've done the equivilant of running around a corner and blaming the newpaper seller that was standing around it for crashing into him.

prj45

balfie wrote:

| know the road very well.

A classic, often seen written by people who like to drive their cars way too fast along twisty roads without really considering what might be in them at the time.

Knowing the road well is never an excuse for going too fast round blind corners.