Riding position - flat bars

sarajoy

Well, I was fitted up by the shop, and it's a woman-specific bike geometry. I don't /feel/ like I'm over-reaching. But I'm not sure I'd know. The saddle definitely doesn't want to be further back (tried that, ouch) - but maybe it could do with some forward movement and movement of the bars somehow.

Hrm :S

tonye_n

sarajoy wrote:

If I went for the bar-ends, which is preferable out of http://www.specialized.com/OA_MEDIA/equ ... 0110_l.jpg and http://www.specialized.com/OA_MEDIA/equ ... 3610_l.jpg ? I imagine I'd stick some tape for cushioning around the latter - but the extra position with the curl at the top is interesting...

Reply:
I recommend the former. I tried the longer bar-ends, but I think those were designed for off-roaders.

The longer bar-ends swinging your hand from grip to bar-end while ridding can be a bit of a b*gg*r on the longer bar-ends. This can result in even more pain because you have to either lift your hand momentarily from the bar or flex your wrist extremely.

Recommended: http://www.specialized.com/OA_MEDIA/equ ... 0110_l.jpg

alfablue

snooks wrote:

alfablue wrote:

The position that flat bars requires is pretty unnatural, if you hang your arms by your sides your palms don't face backwards, but this is the position that flat bars impose.

OK, type something on you keyboard, anything, how are you hands orientated now

Yet millions of people all around the world have their hands in this position every day, it's hardly an unnatural position, it's not like you're sticking your foot behind your neck is it?

I ride with drops and flats, and don't suffer pain in my wrists on either

I knew this would cause controversy

1) A keyboard is narrower than most flat bars, as your arms move out from the centre, the greater the angle of the wrists is required. If your thumbs are about 5cm apart (when using a keyboard) then the natural position has the line across your knuckles pointing inwards, hence the design of keyboard such as this

Your whole arm is angled towards the centre.

On a flat bar your thumbs might be 46cm apart, so the arms are in a completely different position, and the wrist has to angle inwards, albeit slightly, to hold the bar.

2) There is an EU directive on workstation design because of the problems, especially wrist problems, that can be caused.

3) Whilst I have this problem, I am not saying that everyone will, but Sara may be a candidate. Likewise, because you don't have the problem, does not mean no one else will.

4) Why do you think bars have been designed like this:



Or this (anatomic with 18 degree sweep)



Or this



Or this ("commuter handlebars")



Or this ("These unconventional looking bars are designed by Jeff Jones and can provide better handling and more comfort over a traditional bar Jeff Jones is a world renowned designer of MTB components and frames")



Or this

sarajoy

tonye_n - noted, thanks

Also just seen these, which have a good review here on Bikeradar. They look rather comfy!

DonDaddyD

sarajoy wrote:

DDD - As said a few times, I have gloves, well-padded, not padded, and in between. It doesn't /feel/ like a problem a glove would solve, you know? It feels more like a wrist/position thing.

I'm wondering if it's like the whole saddle thing - people ride, get saddlesore, and then 'just' as their sit-bones are getting used to it, they change saddles or cycling shorts and voila - they're the best invention ever - when really it's just a time thing.

Could it be that my wrists might just strengthen up soon?

Sorry I was just relating the issue you posted to a similar issue I had, riding the same style of bike. For me extra padding around the hands epecially that nerve under the thumb - begins with a U, seemed to do the trick for me. I did have to buy £20 fingerless gloves to resolve my wrist/hand ache. At the time (I was a student) that was exspensive to me.

DonDaddyD

sarajoy wrote:

DDD - As said a few times, I have gloves, well-padded, not padded, and in between. It doesn't /feel/ like a problem a glove would solve, you know? It feels more like a wrist/position thing.

I'm wondering if it's like the whole saddle thing - people ride, get saddlesore, and then 'just' as their sit-bones are getting used to it, they change saddles or cycling shorts and voila - they're the best invention ever - when really it's just a time thing.

Could it be that my wrists might just strengthen up soon?

Sorry I was just relating the issue you posted to a similar issue I had, riding the same style of bike. For me extra padding around the hands epecially that nerve under the thumb - begins with a U, seemed to do the trick for me. I did have to buy £20 fingerless gloves to resolve my wrist/hand ache. At the time (I was a student) that was exspensive to me.

roger_merriman

um what bike or sort of bike? i take it's a hybrid? aka MTB ish with slicks?

with flat bars in partcular you don't move your hands around, so if the bike has a aggressive ie fair drop from saddle to bars, over a 8 mile commute you'll feel it, off road it's as much as issue as you should be moving your weight around,

try better gloves barends and grips, and maybe rising the bar in so the bike is more towards sit up and beg, you may well find that you need a new saddle if you do that as your position has changed,

lots of folk have given ideas and i suggest try one at a time...

bar ends are a little 90's much like purple jockey wheels etc, personally i hate them, but they are cheap and will give you more postions on the bike so worth a go.

sarajoy

Fair enough DDD

This wrist thing is about the only bit of discomfort left, and it's looking like a balance thing - though I suspect I can't really move my current handlebars too far.

Might shove the seat a little further forwards, and get bar ends put on in case that leaves me a little too upright - and also to give me another position where I can put my hands.

tonye_n

sarajoy wrote:

tonye_n - noted, thanks

Also just seen these, which have a good review here on Bikeradar. They look rather comfy!

Yep....looks really good. The 'density padding' should prove very comfy indeed. Wish I had seen these before buying mine.

Underscore

StuAff wrote:

Another thing that might help- Ergon grips (or equivalent). I have Ergons on both mine, and they're excellent, never had a problem even on 40-50 mile rides. The GR2s have integrated bar ends as well.

+1



Very good (if a little pricey - £35 for my basic Magnesium version).

_

sarajoy

roger merriman - It's a Spesh Vita Sport - sortof a roadie with flat bars - 'fast hybrid' is it? It's basically the girly version of the Specialized Sirruses.

It doesn't really have much of a saddle-handlebar drop. I think a lot of that it due to us girls maybe having shorter arms

Aye, I think a raise of the bar, saddle-fiddle, cheap bar ends, and maybe better gloves (though currently wearing woolly gloves with lightly padded cycling mitts on top) might be the first port of call.

Thank you all!

I like the idea of wanting something now considered a bit naff or 90s! I guess there is fashion inside every hobby, just not really thought about it...

snooks

Alfablue:

I realise now my comment about not having a problem with either, might not have seemed as subtle as it was intended, sorry...I was just trying to point out that drops aren't the solution for everyone.

Everyone is different, I get on with both, I'm lucky, I realise that, but it did take me time to get used to drops, as well as adjusting the angle of dangle of the brakes on flats as I'd mentions in a previous post

Bars vary for styles, fashion, use and comfort...you just have to stand on the street outside my office to see that. Maybe you could have a word with some of the couriers about bar their length!!

Just a quick thought though....Do they have such variety for pneumatic drills?? :shock:

DonDaddyD

Trapped or compressed ulnar nerve could be the cause of a sore wrist. Consider that the hand/wrist is the contact point pressure is encountered when cycling.... just saying is all....

http://www.answers.com/topic/ulnar-nerve

tarquin_foxglove

Are the bars too wide for your shoulders? are you gripping the bar too tightly?

On my old flat bar bike if I was fresh I would be holding the bar between my thumb & forefinger and the knuckles on my hand would run roughly parallel to the bar. My arm, wrist & hand were in a straightish line and the heal of my palm wouldn't be touching the bar.

When tired I and not paying attention I could 'collapse' my wrist and would rest on the heal of my palm (where the ulna joins the wrist , img of the bones of the hand). This would put a lot of pressure on a bent wrist & could lead to aches & pains.

It is difficult to explain but if you get a fat marker in the palm of your hand & grip it tightly, put your arm out straight and try & get the marker to match the angle of your bars, you'll see the odd angle your wrist goes in.

Rather than going to the expense of bar ends & massive grips, as soon as I started to get tired I just kept reminding myself not to collapse my wrists.

Job done.

biondino

What a great thread!

I didn't realise bullhorns were out of fashion, but the problem with them is that you'd need to completely rejig your brakes/shifters setup. Also, they are basically drop bars without the drops

There's loads of good info here so not much to add, other than say what I think sounds most useful:

- make sure the position of the brake levers is correct by rotating the bars if necessary (sounds like it's fine though?)
- make sure the bars aren't too wide, resulting in your hands being further apart than your shoulders
- try moving the saddle forward (but not up or down) a centimetre or so
- seriously consider bar ends - simply spending half the time in each bar position rather than all the time on the flats might get rid of the discomfort entirely.

Pretty sure you'll be sorted!

davmaggs

As the previous poster mentioned you can start to "collapse" onto your wrists after a while. I found (I have a Sirrus) that my small fingers were going numb, so I changed to resting my thumb on top of the bars, rather than wrapping around them. It stops the kink in the wrist occuring, and also an unconscious over tight grip.

When approaching heavy traffic or weaving about, then I return to the usual grip. It saved me spending any time or money or technical fixes.

sarajoy

tarquin_foxglove - agreed, I guess I do a bit of that - but I keep shifting my hands for most of the ride between various (albeit limited) positions as I'm a little uncomfortable. Cheers for that tip. Connected to what DDD says too.

It is possible I suppose that my bars are too wide? So moving my grips in a bit would help that, would it?

I still fancy some comfy bar ends (look like I can get those SJS ones nice and cheap) - so if I get the choice of using those, PLUS moving my current grips in a bit to accommodate them, plus keeping my mind on what I'm doing with my hands, maybe.....

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Haven't read the whole thread, but have you looked at trekking/butterfly handlebars? I've been looking into a set tonight to add to my possible new flat bar hybrid commuter, to give me more hand positions (including something close to road bike) plus stretch me forward to a more familiar position.

Not come across many options, but here is what I've found...
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Modo ... -15573.htm
http://www.thebikefactory.co.uk/product ... ctid=19198
http://www.discountbicycles.co.uk/biz/p ... _handlebar
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/category-Han ... er-862.htm

m0scs

I had similar problem with the flat bars on my MTB.

I got Cane Creek bar ends and these have solved the problem.

Just giving your hands some option to shift position can make a big difference, it did for me.

i wondered about my riding position and i f there was just too much weight leaning forward but having jigged around with saddle heightt angle etc I couldnt get it anymore comfortable.
.

sarajoy

Those butterfly/yuma bars are interesting but give me almost too many options!

I'm intrigued by the Cane Creek things, or the cheap knockoffs - especially since they've been recommended specifically by two of you! For an easy life it looks like the local spesh shop will fit them all for me if they order the creeks in... sweet.

On the way home I had a bit of a think and made sure to keep my hands straighter than before - which did indeed mean less pain once I'd got home. So that's a plus.

Thought about the saddle and stem height too, but to be honest they both feel about right, I don't really want to go changing.

alfablue

Hi Sara

I hope you didn't think my views were "elitist", they were just based on my experience and discomfort. Of the bars I pictured above I think they all probably have some merits for improving comfort. I am seriously considering some of these for my flat barred bike so I can have the bar end position whilst also being able to cover the brakes.



Any way, I hope your experimentation bears fruit!

sarajoy

alfablue - naw, I'm not sensitive!

The thread I started was mainly in reaction to what's been said the past few days anyway - a lot of misunderstanding of banter and a lot of people taking disparaging comments about their preferred ride personally, maybe. Who knows!

Indeed, I also like the look of bullhorn bars - really tempting, can't work out whether to get some nice bar ends (LOTS of good reviews of them cane creek thingies online) or just go the whole hog and get handlebars like you've pictured. I do like the look of those, and I assume they'll happily take my current shifters...

sarajoy

Incidentally - what width of bars should I be looking at, relative to my shoulder width?

always_tyred

NitrousOxide wrote:

Haven't read the whole thread, but have you looked at trekking/butterfly handlebars? I've been looking into a set tonight to add to my possible new flat bar hybrid commuter, to give me more hand positions (including something close to road bike) plus stretch me forward to a more familiar position.

Not come across many options, but here is what I've found...
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Modo ... -15573.htm
http://www.thebikefactory.co.uk/product ... ctid=19198
http://www.discountbicycles.co.uk/biz/p ... _handlebar
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/category-Han ... er-862.htm

My god those are awful. Mind you, a couple of drillings and you'd have a musical instrument.

Why not simply get some drop bars and install them the wrong way up?

On a serious note - the problem with bar ends, and the reason I've not bothered with them for years, is that you can't reach the brakes. Other than a longish climb, I am hardly ever not covering the brakes on my commute.

always_tyred

alfablue wrote:

Hi Sara

I hope you didn't think my views were "elitist", they were just based on my experience and discomfort. Of the bars I pictured above I think they all probably have some merits for improving comfort. I am seriously considering some of these for my flat barred bike so I can have the bar end position whilst also being able to cover the brakes.



Any way, I hope your experimentation bears fruit!

How would that work? Have you got a pitcure of a similar setup? (still hopeful of eccentric but comforable mtb setup).

Rich158

I always go for about shoulder width, or very slghtly under, which seems to work for me. Certainly don't go any wider or it'll feel like your steering a barge (the wider the bars the slower your steering will feel).

Incidently if your stem height feels Ok, I'd check out the length, in my experience this has a far greater effect as it moves you body weight forward/back, rather than just altering the height of your hands in relation to your body. I'm short in the body (take that as being short all over) and nearly always have to swap my stem out for something shorter in order to get the right position.

alfablue

Hi Sara

Well, the shifters are the problem, I presume you have flat bar shifters (like mtb ones), probably with the brake levers in one unit. If so the bullhorn bars offer little advantage over bar ends as you would have these on the flat part.

However, road STI shifters go on the end of the bullhorn so you get the bar end position with access to brakes and gears at all times.

New shifters makes it expensive, but I did get some secondhand 9 speed Ultegra shifters form the classifieds section on this site for £25 (used on a different bike though), so it would be possible to achieve without paying top £'s. Only trouble with that is the risk (I reckon small though) that you don't get on with it...but then you could always sell on to me

Also, with Ultegra STI's (or 105's and some others) you can buy shims to make the brake lever reach less (by 15 or 20mm) so smaller (ladies?) hands are more comfy and better able to operate the brakes.

The usual recommendation for bar width is that it should match your shoulder width, I don't know if this method is correct but I measure my shoulder width from the arm joint not the outside of the upper arm/shoulder (so about 1.5cm inboard). For me this is 43cm, I have 42cm road bars and these feel great, arms are directly in line, pointing neither outwards or inwards.

I was looking for pictures of the STI / Bullhorn setup, ignore the bike (I do fancy one though!), but this Dahon Speed Pro TT uses that approach

sarajoy

Always Tyred wrote:

Why not simply get some drop bars and install them the wrong way up?

AFAIK that's what "bull horn" bars are - but with a bit lopped off.

Always Tyred wrote:

On a serious note - the problem with bar ends, and the reason I've not bothered with them for years, is that you can't reach the brakes. Other than a longish climb, I am hardly ever not covering the brakes on my commute.

There's some fairly good stretches on my commute - and I find myself resting my palms vertically on the outer ends of my handlebars. I figure there's got to be a way to do this comfortably and actually feel a little bit of control

wgwarburton

sarajoy wrote:

Indeed, I also like the look of bullhorn bars - really tempting, can't work out whether to get some nice bar ends (LOTS of good reviews of them cane creek thingies online) or just go the whole hog and get handlebars like you've pictured. I do like the look of those, and I assume they'll happily take my current shifters...

Not sure about your current shifters, sorry, but FWIW I'm running a bullhorn-style setup at the moment on the winter hack. Mine are flopped & chopped drop bars (the originals were bent and this allowed me to re-use them) and work well for me. I find they give me three or four variations on hand position, some of them subtle, with easy access to the brakes (have drop-bar brake levers at the ends of the bars) and a comfortable palms-in wrist orientation. I don't have shifters at the moment, but if I did I'd probably go for bar-end or downtube ones. The integrated ones don't appeal to me very much.

The risk with bar-ends is that you end up with your hands too far apart for comfort or aerodynamics- wide bars arn't ideal for a road setup.

Cheers,
W.

alfablue

Another picture of bullhorns with STI's