Legal Eagle Employment Contract Help

Clever Pun
Clever Pun Posts: 6,778
edited March 2009 in Commuting chat
It looks like we may be forced into signing new contracts which increase hours, reduce pension payments by 1/2 etc

Where do I stand in terms of refusing to sign it?

At present there is no remuneration increase to handle getting shafted.
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Comments

  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    I am no lawyer, but I would have thought that if you refuse and they want to force the issue they would have to make you redundant, but they would have to show that the post was indeed redundant, or it could be an unfair dismissal; they shouldn't be able to use redundancy just to weed out people they don't want. I reckon it is a ploy to manipulate you, most people think they have to do what they are told, and most people will follow like lambs to the slaughter. Issues like this is what trade unions are for.

    Hopefully an employment lawyer will be along soon to tell me how wrong I am!

    But, a few years ago, in my workplace, 6 middle managers were invited to apply for four posts. The four posts went to 3 who did apply (effectively for jobs that were already theirs) and the fourth one went to the manager who refused to join in the game and wouldn't reapply for her own post!
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    This is timely - my work are trying to increase my hours from 9 - 5:30 to 9 - 6.

    Doesn't sound like much but it's 2.5 hours more work per week for no more money, and in principle that really fcuks me off.
  • Rich158
    Rich158 Posts: 2,348
    I've just been through the whole contract process at work, essentially they can't change your contract without your agreement, and if they want to terminate the contract then they have to abide by the rules contained within it. Where that leaves you with your employer if you refuse to sign it god only knows, if everyone else signs the amended contract that doesn't reflect very well on you.

    They could make you redundant, but iirc they can't bring anyone else in to fill your position within six months without first offering it to you, in which case it would be under the new contract.

    I may be completely wrong, I'm sure any employment lawyer will confirm this.
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  • greg66_tri_v2.0
    greg66_tri_v2.0 Posts: 7,172
    PM'd ya.
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  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,064
    Holy shit I would have killed for 9-6 my jobs for the past 15+ have been on call 24x7 working until things we're finished or stable enough to last until the morning.

    Where did it all get me?!?! eh! :evil:
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    itboffin wrote:
    Holy shoot I would have killed for 9-6 my jobs for the past 15+ have been on call 24x7 working until things we're finished or stable enough to last until the morning.

    Where did it all get me?!?! eh! :evil:
    so in breach of the EU working time directive?

    Employees are their own worst enemies. Granted, as almost all employees put up and shut up, the one that says "no" is rather exposed to victimisation, even if it might be illegal.
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    itboffin wrote:
    Holy shoot I would have killed for 9-6 my jobs for the past 15+ have been on call 24x7 working until things we're finished or stable enough to last until the morning.

    Where did it all get me?!?! eh! :evil:

    I don't get paid very well really, so I'm protective of my hours and strike a good work/life balance. When I leave the office that's it for the day, no blackberrying etc. I regard any erosion of this with extreme hostility (unless the word "payrise" is mentioned).

    Given that I'll be 30 this year I suppose I should see if I could earn substantially more for doing the same thing, I suspect I could, but then life is all about trade-off's and not all about work. Something the English seem to have lost sight of.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,398
    No idea on the legalities so I'm not even going to try.

    Would advise though that irrespective of your decision regarding accepting the new contract you start looking for other options. If your employer feels it is necessary to take these steps and risk the issues that may arise they may well be in a lot of trouble.



    That said they may well be another fecker trying to shaft people and blaming the credit crunch. :twisted:
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  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,064
    alfablue wrote:
    itboffin wrote:
    Holy shoot I would have killed for 9-6 my jobs for the past 15+ have been on call 24x7 working until things we're finished or stable enough to last until the morning.

    Where did it all get me?!?! eh! :evil:
    so in breach of the EU working time directive?

    Employees are their own worst enemies. Granted, as almost all employees put up and shut up, the one that says "no" is rather exposed to victimisation, even if it might be illegal.

    Yes the clause that everyone in my industry is expected to opt out of and back into a more company friendly slave version.
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • jonginge
    jonginge Posts: 5,945
    IANAL but constructive dismissal alarm bells are ringing:
    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ ... G_10026696
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  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,064
    CP unless you really love this job & company start looking, this is a very bad sign whatever the underlying reason for the request.
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    JonGinge wrote:
    IANAL but constructive dismissal alarm bells are ringing:
    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ ... G_10026696
    Yes it could well be constructive dismissal if you felt forced to quit, however, I am told (by the lawyer who took on my son's constructive dismissal case) that it is much harder to prove than a more straightforward unfair dismissal, so it is always best to force the employers hand rather than letting the employer force yours.

    If you sign the new contract you are probably, effectively undermining any claim you might have, so don't make it easy for the employer. If they have any sense they will rethink.
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    itboffin wrote:
    alfablue wrote:
    itboffin wrote:
    Holy shoot I would have killed for 9-6 my jobs for the past 15+ have been on call 24x7 working until things we're finished or stable enough to last until the morning.

    Where did it all get me?!?! eh! :evil:
    so in breach of the EU working time directive?

    Employees are their own worst enemies. Granted, as almost all employees put up and shut up, the one that says "no" is rather exposed to victimisation, even if it might be illegal.

    Yes the clause that everyone in my industry is expected to opt out of and back into a more company friendly slave version.

    There will be a period of notice you can give them to opt out of your opt out....go on, rattle their cage :evil: :wink:

    Despite the 48hr opt out, the part of the directive that requires 11 hours between shifts cannot be opted out of as far as I am aware.... my son (in slave mode) was being worked 6 day weeks, finishing at 1.00am, starting at 8.00am next day - not on!

    (he settled out of court for £7k and signed a gagging clause).
  • ride_whenever
    ride_whenever Posts: 13,279
    I've been known to work 0530 to 2200 5 days a week and a whole load more at the weekend when coaching around my degree, but generally I get paid for what I do, and want to do the stuff.

    From the looks of things, they're giving you all sly pay-cuts.
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  • Christophe3967
    Christophe3967 Posts: 1,200
    The best way to make changes to employees' contracts is by negotiation so that staff agree and undertsand the whys and wherefores. Sounds like they haven't done this, which is a little silly. You would hope that there would be a period of consultation where details of the proposed changes are set out.

    If your existing contract allows your employer some flexibility it may be that "reasonable" changes could be enforced, but it's hardly the best way of doing things.

    As far as the pension is concerned, unless the contract specifies the payments to be made by the company (and you), or has defined benefits (unlikely) then the employer can alter the funding, although it would be unwise for them to do this without communicating with staff beforehand. There are ways of doing this without getting everyone's backs up. If there are Trustees, they will need to be consulted and agree to any changes, which would need to be possible under the Deed and Rules of the scheme. However, you may actually have individulal insurance contracts, and these schemes allow far more scope for employers to alter the funding.

    If you don't sign the contract and everyone else does, then you have a problem. Even if nobody signs, the employer may be able to make you redudant and re-engage you on the new contract.

    Hope this works out OK for you.
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  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    I suspect that there will be a great deal of employer opportunism attributed to the recession.
  • Clever Pun
    Clever Pun Posts: 6,778
    itboffin wrote:
    CP unless you really love this job & company start looking, this is a very bad sign whatever the underlying reason for the request.

    hell yeah... cv is being updated tomorrow

    cheers for the advice guys
    Purveyor of sonic doom

    Very Hairy Roadie - FCN 4
    Fixed Pista- FCN 5
    Beared Bromptonite - FCN 14
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    ride_whenever wrote:
    I've been known to work 0530 to 2200 5 days a week and a whole load more at the weekend when coaching around my degree, but generally I get paid for what I do, and want to do the stuff.

    From the looks of things, they're giving you all sly pay-cuts.
    Mate, until you get out there, don't even think of comparing the joyous ambling freedom of a phd, and the recreational joys of actually having time to spend by the river (this from the owner of an ornamental boat - decorating the inside of a distant boat club), to the wicked slavery that is fulll time employment.

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