Pacing A timetrial

celbianchi

I am a roadie mainly though have done the occasional mountain time trial and a lot of end of season hill climb races.

Last season I started doing the odd 10 on my road bike and on a fairly slow course with 10 roundabout junctions did 23'30.

I have now bought a TT bike and am going to do a few flat TT's to see what I am capable of.

If I use a powermeter (which I use for training) what sort of %age of FTP would make for sensible pacing for 10's. I assume for a 25 I will be able to mainatin around fTP or just above.

I kick off my 'serious' efforts at TT'ing on Saturday on a hilly 32, as this is likely to be around 75-85 minutes (not sure how hilly) I guess somewhere just below FTP would be ideal pacing strategy.

Last season in the 10's I make what I am sure is the non testers error of going off hard and hanging on. I know I need to pace myself better. I used my HRM last season and did not really see a classic increases in HR throughout the 10, more so a quick rise over the first 3 mins to around 90% of Max HR, plateau then hammer it over the last 2 miles getting to maybe 93% max by the end.

Any thoughts on optimum FTP% for varying distances?

dennisn

Can't really speak for power meter training / racing but as far as 10 miles TT's
go I would venture the opinion that most amateur racers "give it hell" right out of the box,
so to speak, and just try to hold on. Seems to me that this is the way it's done on the 10
mile or less races. Above 10 you start to have to really get into pacing or you will "cook"
yourself out there. At least that's my opinion.

Dennis Noward

Kléber

You'll find some can vary their % of FTP for a 10 but you won't get too far beyond 100%, think 110-120% tops, but this varies. It will depend on the course too.

inseine

I think that 110-120% is pretty far beyond 100%! An FTP of 170 x 120% = 204!!
I think that it's pretty hard to judge over a longish hilly course, but when you ride the 10s it would be interesting to see your power downloads after you just ride then the same as last year and then in a more measured way using the powermetre.

Idi Merckx

celbianchi wrote:

Last season I started doing the odd 10 on my road bike and on a fairly slow course with 10 roundabout junctions did 23'30.

Gosh!

the "odd" 10!!
road bike!!
slow course!!
10 roundabouts!!

AND YOU STILL DID IT IN 23'30 ??

Shall we start by being honest about why you really started this thread?

You want us all to think - GOSH he's really fast. Imagine what he could do on a TT bike on a fast course with only one roundabout!

I hate that

celbianchi

Idi Merckx wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

Last season I started doing the odd 10 on my road bike and on a fairly slow course with 10 roundabout junctions did 23'30.

Gosh!

the "odd" 10!!
road bike!!
slow course!!
10 roundabouts!!

AND YOU STILL DID IT IN 23'30 ??

Shall we start by being honest about why you really started this thread?

You want us all to think - GOSH he's really fast. Imagine what he could do on a TT bike on a fast course with only one roundabout!

I hate that

not really my friend, it is about positioning where I was last season and what I hope to do this season.

23'30 isn't that fast, the course record is over 2 1/2 minutes quicker.

I was asking for advice from expereinced testers on how to pace better, and for those that pace by power what % of FTP they would use for varying distances. Putting a bit of contest around your point is fairly normal is it not?

If i opened by saying I want to try and do a 21 on a decent course (which i do) would that have been better for you?

The clue is in the opening line e.g. I am really a road racer who occasionally does a TT. I haven't got years of testing esperience to draw on how to pace it all by RPE.

now, can you give me any better pacing tips than I currently use or not?

Idi Merckx

celbianchi wrote:

now, can you give me any better pacing tips than I currently use or not?

No

celbianchi

Idi Merckx wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

now, can you give me any better pacing tips than I currently use or not?

No

Thanks anyway for the critique on my opening post.

inseine

In the days before power metres Chris Boardman used to set off and get into what he felt was a good pace and then after a mile or so, look at his HRM and what ever the reading was he'd try to hold that for the rest of the race. I think using the power metre will be pretty useful, but an element of 'feel' is important too.
You probably know, since you are already training with power, that you can probably hold around your FTP for this length of time, I just think that this is a difficult event to hold a constant power. If you're like me you'd have to turn yourself inside out to hold the power on the decents.

Idi Merckx

celbianchi wrote:

Thanks anyway for the critique on my opening post.

You're welcome.

Peace be upon you in all your endeavours.

cougie

That Idi certainly has mellowed eh ?

A hilly 32 is gonna be a bugger to pace I reckon, but one tip that I remember is to take it easy going up the hills so you can really whack it up on the descents and gain more time there.

DaveyL

i think Alex Simmons has produced quite a detailed post on this topic recently, and compared what he calls an iso-power pacing strategy with a variable one. Obviously on a flat course you just want to hold a constant power, but I seem to recall Alex saying he had modelled both strategies for a hilly TT and he found the variable pacing to be quicker.

Maybe have a dig around recent likely-looking posts on the Training forum? Sorry I can't remember exactly which post I saw it in, but there is definitely some detailed stuff over on Training that you might find useful.

celbianchi

thanks everyone for your thoughts.

I agree with the comment about holding a constant power on descents being difficult, I guess it will be like when i started road racing and you learn what suits you, the more you do.

I'll be interested to find that post of Alex's, a lot of his stuff is very useful. I did have a look before the initial post, found a couple of bits on pacing by HR.

The two long mountain TT's I have done in the past are really hard for me to pace, I always try and go hard on the hills, both of them have a 3 to 5 mile flatish run in and I am really suffering on the flatter bits.

I had a bit of a google as well before opening this topic.

DaveyL

Got it. It's the last post on this thread:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... sc&start=0

celbianchi

thanks Daveyl.

Re the point about Boardman earlier. I wonder, given his appreciation of technology how he would approach pacing if still at his peak nowadays?

DaveyL

I think Boardman was using an SRM in the early 90s. The guy was meticulous so I would imagine he'd looked at various pacing strategies when he was using the powermeter.

guv001

All my fastest TT's have been achieved with no speedo or HRM, I don't know why!

celbianchi

guv001 wrote:

All my fastest TT's have been achieved with no speedo or HRM, I don't know why!

Maybe because you just get on with it rather than worry about doing the next 60 secs at intensity x... I think with experience at pacing your body's rpe will be pretty much spot on. Having used HRM's for years and a power meter for 2 years I find I can guestimate pretty closely what my gadget says based on how my legs and lungs feel, usually within 10 or 20 watts.

Exige46

The link below may help

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/

celbianchi

Exige46 wrote:

The link below may help

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/

Cheers - and this thread in particular

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... &hl=pacing

Alex_Simmons/RST

dennisn wrote:

Can't really speak for power meter training / racing but as far as 10 miles TT's
go I would venture the opinion that most amateur racers "give it hell" right out of the box,
so to speak, and just try to hold on. Seems to me that this is the way it's done on the 10
mile or less races. Above 10 you start to have to really get into pacing or you will "cook"
yourself out there. At least that's my opinion.

Dennis Noward

If most amateur racers are giving it hell out of the blocks, then their pacing will be sub-optimal, no matter the distance they have to ride.

Pacing is a vital skill for fast TT riding, for everything from an individual pursuit as short as 2km (e.g. for masters age riders) right up to 180km Ironman bike legs.

As for the ratio of 10-mile TT power to 25-mile TT power (FTP), that varies for each individual.

Myself, I generally average about 104% of FTP in a 10-mile TT. Some can do more, others less. Not all that much more though.

Alex_Simmons/RST

The 3 Ps of fast TT racing:

- Power to the pedals (training to become more powerful)
- Piercing the wind (becoming as aerodynamic as possible + fast tyres)
- Pacing the course well

To go the fastest you can go, you need all three, otherwise you are sub-optimal speed wise.

Jeff Jones

My best 10 power is ~105% of my best 25 power (under an hour, but probably close to FTP).

In my admittedly short experience, I've found it's easy to average 110% of FTP for five minutes but boy do you pay for it in terms of power loss later on.

What bakes your noodle is that it will hurt more starting flat out and hanging on than starting steady and ramping up. But you will go slower. We like to equate pain with good performance but our bodies don't work like that.

dennisn

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Can't really speak for power meter training / racing but as far as 10 miles TT's
go I would venture the opinion that most amateur racers "give it hell" right out of the box,
so to speak, and just try to hold on. Seems to me that this is the way it's done on the 10
mile or less races. Above 10 you start to have to really get into pacing or you will "cook"
yourself out there. At least that's my opinion.

Dennis Noward

If most amateur racers are giving it hell out of the blocks, then their pacing will be sub-optimal, no matter the distance they have to ride.

Pacing is a vital skill for fast TT riding, .......

I agree with you 100% about pacing. Just an observation of mine that most AMATEUR
riders tend to give it, pretty much, all they have and just try to "hang on for the finish" in the shorter events. Granted pacing would help and I'm sure in the top amateur and pro ranks this is a very important aspect of the ride but for the average weekend warrior /
club racer I have a feeling that, in these shorter TT's, most thoughts of pacing are somewhat pushed aside by the pretty much all out effort that most people feel they need to put in in order to post a good time.I agree that this type of thinking is wrong(to a point)
but it is very hard to put all other thoughts behind you and concentrate on a monitor or two. The effort of it all seems to send peoples minds into almost chaos and the dominate
thought is "go harder, go harder". I can remember having all kinds of thoughts go through
my head in these "shorter" TT's. i.e. if my monitor said 105%, and I was still capable of reading it through the pain, my brain would still be telling me "ignore that thing, go for 110%, you've got to go faster or suffer the disgrace of having your minute man pass you". And when your minute man is your best friend and vicious rival and somehow always seems to sign up for a start spot one minute behind you, well, all thoughts of pacing go right out the door. Kill yourself, kill yourself, don't even let him get close(oh the disgrace of it all if you get caught).

Dennis Noward

celbianchi

dennisn wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Can't really speak for power meter training / racing but as far as 10 miles TT's
go I would venture the opinion that most amateur racers "give it hell" right out of the box,
so to speak, and just try to hold on. Seems to me that this is the way it's done on the 10
mile or less races. Above 10 you start to have to really get into pacing or you will "cook"
yourself out there. At least that's my opinion.

Dennis Noward

If most amateur racers are giving it hell out of the blocks, then their pacing will be sub-optimal, no matter the distance they have to ride.

Pacing is a vital skill for fast TT riding, .......

I agree with you 100% about pacing. Just an observation of mine that most AMATEUR
riders tend to give it, pretty much, all they have and just try to "hang on for the finish" in the shorter events. Granted pacing would help and I'm sure in the top amateur and pro ranks this is a very important aspect of the ride but for the average weekend warrior /
club racer I have a feeling that, in these shorter TT's, most thoughts of pacing are somewhat pushed aside by the pretty much all out effort that most people feel they need to put in in order to post a good time.I agree that this type of thinking is wrong(to a point)
but it is very hard to put all other thoughts behind you and concentrate on a monitor or two. The effort of it all seems to send peoples minds into almost chaos and the dominate
thought is "go harder, go harder". I can remember having all kinds of thoughts go through
my head in these "shorter" TT's. i.e. if my monitor said 105%, and I was still capable of reading it through the pain, my brain would still be telling me "ignore that thing, go for 110%, you've got to go faster or suffer the disgrace of having your minute man pass you". And when your minute man is your best friend and vicious rival and somehow always seems to sign up for a start spot one minute behind you, well, all thoughts of pacing go right out the door. Kill yourself, kill yourself, don't even let him get close(oh the disgrace of it all if you get caught).

Dennis Noward

good post Dennis. As a reasonably experienced roadie, but with only a handful of 10's to my name, my first thought is ALWAYS "mustn't let the minute man catch me". I think your summation is accurate for a lot of inexperienced testers.

I have a hilly 32 tomorrow, I will use my HRM but I am definatley going to start out easier. Hell, last season I did 2 long mountain TT's (one 40 miles. one 47 miles) and I still gave it big licks from the start and hang on. I do ok (for a roadman) and even in club 10's always bagged a top 10 finish using this method.

I treat them like i do hill climbs, just give it some and hope for the best. I hope to experiment a lot this season given I'll do quite a few and learn the art of proper pacing!

DaveyL

Just came across this article on TT pacing by Allen Lim, the Garmin-Slipstream coach:

http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink ... ffb8b.aspx

celbianchi

DaveyL wrote:

Just came across this article on TT pacing by Allen Lim, the Garmin-Slipstream coach:

http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink ... ffb8b.aspx

Interesting article. Good to see that even the pro's with all the coaching and science back up still have to do a lot of trial and error to find what works.
I guess that only on a pan flat course could you apply an FTP x % over a set distance to maximise your pacing.

In the hilly 32 I did on Saturday the first 500 yards or so were up hill into a headwind, Depite my thoughts being on starting moderatley, I was quickly up to the 90% of MHR.
I think I probably went too hard on the first 11 mile lap as I suffered towards the end.
Did enough to finish 6th though in 1'31'33, though some 7 mins down on the winner. Was pleased enough for first ride on the TT bike.

Now to drum into my head that a moderate start = faster overall. I will experiment in club midweek 10's to crack the pacing strategy.

Thanks to all who have chipped into this thread, much food for thought

Jeff Jones

celbianchi wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Just came across this article on TT pacing by Allen Lim, the Garmin-Slipstream coach:

http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink ... ffb8b.aspx

Interesting article. Good to see that even the pro's with all the coaching and science back up still have to do a lot of trial and error to find what works.
I guess that only on a pan flat course could you apply an FTP x % over a set distance to maximise your pacing.

In the hilly 32 I did on Saturday the first 500 yards or so were up hill into a headwind, Depite my thoughts being on starting moderatley, I was quickly up to the 90% of MHR.
I think I probably went too hard on the first 11 mile lap as I suffered towards the end.
Did enough to finish 6th though in 1'31'33, though some 7 mins down on the winner. Was pleased enough for first ride on the TT bike.

Now to drum into my head that a moderate start = faster overall. I will experiment in club midweek 10's to crack the pacing strategy.

Thanks to all who have chipped into this thread, much food for thought

That's still a good result. You will improve as you get used to the TT bike. Do as much training on it as you can.

Pacing: this is so hard to get your head around because it just feels wrong. I understood the concept quite well but it took me over a dozen races last year to sort of get the hang of it. Even then I still messed it up when there was a bit of pressure on, like in the British TT champs. Started steady but hit the first hill too hard and paid for it on the second lap. Luckily I ended up too far down on the winner for it to have mattered. It was just annoying.

celbianchi

Jeff Jones wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Just came across this article on TT pacing by Allen Lim, the Garmin-Slipstream coach:

http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink ... ffb8b.aspx

Interesting article. Good to see that even the pro's with all the coaching and science back up still have to do a lot of trial and error to find what works.
I guess that only on a pan flat course could you apply an FTP x % over a set distance to maximise your pacing.

In the hilly 32 I did on Saturday the first 500 yards or so were up hill into a headwind, Depite my thoughts being on starting moderatley, I was quickly up to the 90% of MHR.
I think I probably went too hard on the first 11 mile lap as I suffered towards the end.
Did enough to finish 6th though in 1'31'33, though some 7 mins down on the winner. Was pleased enough for first ride on the TT bike.

Now to drum into my head that a moderate start = faster overall. I will experiment in club midweek 10's to crack the pacing strategy.

Thanks to all who have chipped into this thread, much food for thought

That's still a good result. You will improve as you get used to the TT bike. Do as much training on it as you can.

Pacing: this is so hard to get your head around because it just feels wrong. I understood the concept quite well but it took me over a dozen races last year to sort of get the hang of it. Even then I still messed it up when there was a bit of pressure on, like in the British TT champs. Started steady but hit the first hill too hard and paid for it on the second lap. Luckily I ended up too far down on the winner for it to have mattered. It was just annoying.

Cheers Jeff, I was pleased enough with the result. Your post a few back in this thread about how your head says "must go as hard as possible" is what strikes a chord with me the most. As a roadie who climbs ok, I more than hold my own on the hilly parts, just need to curb some climbing enthusiasm.
It's all good though - now I just need to strike a balance between being fit for TT's and being fit for road racing. I am scared of being below my average at both by trying to do a balanced season.
Doesn't affect the pros though I guess.