Is a new approach to doping needed?
aurelio_-_banned
Posts: 1,317
It seems clear that doping isn’t going to go away. The dopers are always one step ahead of the testers, and the UCI wants to go back to it’s traditional ‘See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil’ approach that has only been briefly challenged by the likes of Patrice Clerc. (Or ‘the man who might have saved cycling’).
As some academics have argued, perhaps the way forward is to accept doping in a totally open way. It has been argued that having a good natural response to doping is no less a ‘gift’ as having a naturally high VO2 max, or having a strong positive response to training efforts. Similarly, perhaps a rider’s degree of application to doping themselves might been seen as being little different to any other area, such as ensuring they have the best possible equipment and position.
True, it would take a bit of a change on the part of the followers of the sport to have to openly accept that rider A beat rider B mainly because their doping was more ‘professional’. But perhaps that is the only way the lying and hypocrisy will come to an end.
It would also give the commentators something else to talk about:
‘Phil, I have seen rider A’s doping profile for this event and it’s very interesting. As we know he has a naturally high haemocrit level and does not respond very well to blood doping and Epo, but I see he has been on a heavy steroids and testosterone program. The plan is to make the most of his VO2 max by using a gear several inches higher than usual, attempting to win by brute strength.
Yes, Paul. I will be interesting to see how that works. It will certainly be different to the plan of rider B, his main rival, who has been boosting his haemocrit so that he has oxygen to spare and so can spin at a higher cadence which is much less mechanically efficient but will help keep his blood lactate levels down.
It may be Phil that both the main favourites will have a surprise today. I have just seen the doping profile for rider C, a lowly domestic from Eastern Europe who is desperate to win today in order to buy his mother a new cow back in Lativia. This man is a true professional and a real warrior, and has apparently boosted his haemocrit to a literally death or glory 70%!
That’s amazing Paul. This is going to be a great race and it will be interesting to see just who wins, and whether any of the riders will be taking advantage of the UCI’s body bag service.
As some academics have argued, perhaps the way forward is to accept doping in a totally open way. It has been argued that having a good natural response to doping is no less a ‘gift’ as having a naturally high VO2 max, or having a strong positive response to training efforts. Similarly, perhaps a rider’s degree of application to doping themselves might been seen as being little different to any other area, such as ensuring they have the best possible equipment and position.
True, it would take a bit of a change on the part of the followers of the sport to have to openly accept that rider A beat rider B mainly because their doping was more ‘professional’. But perhaps that is the only way the lying and hypocrisy will come to an end.
It would also give the commentators something else to talk about:
‘Phil, I have seen rider A’s doping profile for this event and it’s very interesting. As we know he has a naturally high haemocrit level and does not respond very well to blood doping and Epo, but I see he has been on a heavy steroids and testosterone program. The plan is to make the most of his VO2 max by using a gear several inches higher than usual, attempting to win by brute strength.
Yes, Paul. I will be interesting to see how that works. It will certainly be different to the plan of rider B, his main rival, who has been boosting his haemocrit so that he has oxygen to spare and so can spin at a higher cadence which is much less mechanically efficient but will help keep his blood lactate levels down.
It may be Phil that both the main favourites will have a surprise today. I have just seen the doping profile for rider C, a lowly domestic from Eastern Europe who is desperate to win today in order to buy his mother a new cow back in Lativia. This man is a true professional and a real warrior, and has apparently boosted his haemocrit to a literally death or glory 70%!
That’s amazing Paul. This is going to be a great race and it will be interesting to see just who wins, and whether any of the riders will be taking advantage of the UCI’s body bag service.
0
Comments
-
Sadly Aurelio, that approach is the very one we have had during the past few years, only some commentators tried not to mention it. Documents show the likes of Pantani have been riding with 60% and more, it's not hard to imagine some more desperate riders, perhaps someone poor and coming to the end of their contract who risks losing their visa or work permit and going significantly beyond this.
The doping rules are primarily there for the rider's health, sporting considerations like fair play should come a close second.
I too am saddened about Clerc's apparent sacking but the likes of Prudhomme aren't going to tolerate any rubbish.
Things can be better and it's not that hard to make a few small improvements. For a new approach to doping, how about a consistent one? Keep samples for retro-testing, lobby hard for a unified European approach to anti-doping and employ more intelligent and forward thinking ideas, like start-line haematocrit tests and a hard attitude from the media towards doping and dopers. I'd like to see all team staff be licenced, for example in France all soigneurs have to be registered physios, but elsewhere you can employ any shyster you like.
In addition, I'd like to see a shake-up at the UCI, with the likes of Verbruggen and McQuaid ejected for life, their pursuit of commercial interests has backfired, the failure to tackle doping has seen this cancer grow to dominate the sport and ironically, scare sponsors away. The Pro Tour is a worthy idea, but one to install once you've got the riders and teams running in a healthier way.0 -
I'm not sure that I agree with you there. Doping for sport is illegal in France, Italy and Spain, so if it does continue, there will be continued legal action, bad publicity for cycling and a loss of fans.
I can't see it as being in the cycling authorities' interest to go back to the bad old days.
I hope that you're wrong about it, and that over the next few months we might see the results from the biological passports, as well as continued action on Operation Puerto.
Here's an idea - instead of getting depressed, let's all send an e-mail to the UCI, asking about the state of play with the biological passports. The address is admin@uci.ch
They must not be allowed to forget that the fans care.0 -
One of the best things about sport as children is playing like your favourite footballer or athlete or swimmer and competing against your friends, it would be a terrible shame to see children playing doping top trumps, or arguing about the best method of increasing T, is it by Synthetics or blocking oestrogen.
He shoots up. He scores
Open drugtaking just means things accelerate and ultimately contests which are primarily man against man or team sports become battles of technology like formula one and out of reach of normal people. Currently most people can afford access to a bike capable of performing well in a time trial, race or sportive and for some the chance to be competative. it wouldnt serve cycling well if there wasnt easy access to the sport at the bottom. And to expect people not to buy performance in 3/4 races even is unrealistic. Just check the number of deep section carbon wheels and exotic frames.
On the other hand some of the obvious users are hugely entertaining like landis and his strop on and water pouring. Great television spectacle but terrible for him and the sport0 -
Update: I've just e-mailed the UCI with these questions:
How many suspect cases are the UCI examining?
When can cycling fans expect to hear further news?
Will the findings of the cases be examined by external anti-doping experts?
Anyone got anything to add to that?
I hope that others will join me on this one. There's no point in just complaining - we fans do have power, let's use it!0 -
johnfinch wrote:How many suspect cases are the UCI examining?
When can cycling fans expect to hear further news?
Will the findings of the cases be examined by external anti-doping experts?
I don't work for the UCI but I can answer those.
They won't say. There are some but they won't say how many.
When the cases are absolutely certain. It's not fair to destroy peoples reputations without certaintity. That kind of thing is best left to internet forums
The analysis is done by a team of international experts including Michael Ashenden and if a case it brought it should stand up to scrutiny from anyone.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
How about compulsory doping?
Every rider has to take a compulsory and monitored regime of performance drugs, which will just be on the edge of safety, as far as the edge can be determined (ho hum, you might lose a few along the way), so anything else they decide to add will probably kill them (ho hum, you might lose a few along the way), and then we're back to the rider making the difference.
Waddaya reckon - that would be a different approach
It doesn't get any easier, but I don't appear to be getting any faster.0 -
Those who cheat already would just take more in secret, wouldn't they?0
-
well boys, than the new stuff just arrived in time:
Hematide™, a synthetic peptide-based erythropoiesis-stimulating agent (ESA), is a product candidate that has demonstrated the ability to stimulate the production of red blood cells.(...)
Hematide’s properties may include monthly administration, relatively uncomplicated chemical synthesis, greater stability than currently marketed products, and room temperature storage.
http://www.affymax.com/pipeline_hematide.html
not detectable yet0 -
Nice to see Laffymax getting in there with a bit of "me-too" drug development.
How do you know it's not detectable yet? It's another PEG-ylated epo derivative, a bit like Mircera. And probably as easy to detect as Mircera.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
sorry, didn't want to spoil the thread. still have to get accoustemed to the "rules".
not detectable says Prof. Dr. Horst Pagel from Lübeck university, because WADA did not get any information or sample from the producer
http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/sportnews_55207.htm0 -
It won't be difficult to test for it - it's not natural, like epo is.
And I wonder if any riders would be daft enough to take it, after the Mircera "bear-trap". Maybe WADA have a test, and either Prof. Pagel doesn't know or is playing along. The Mircera bust was successful at taking out several riders, but it was also a psychological masterstroke.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
johnfinch wrote:Update: I've just e-mailed the UCI with these questions:
How many suspect cases are the UCI examining?
When can cycling fans expect to hear further news?
Will the findings of the cases be examined by external anti-doping experts?
Anyone got anything to add to that?
I hope that others will join me on this one. There's no point in just complaining - we fans do have power, let's use it!
When will Total Body Hemoglobin testing be conducted on the top 10 G.C. riders in Grand Tours?
Why are blood samples not taken on the starting line of races so riders will have no timeframe to blood dope?0 -
NicFrance wrote:well boys, than the new stuff just arrived in time:
Hematide™, a synthetic peptide-based erythropoiesis-stimulating agent (ESA), is a product candidate that has demonstrated the ability to stimulate the production of red blood cells.(...)
Hematide’s properties may include monthly administration, relatively uncomplicated chemical synthesis, greater stability than currently marketed products, and room temperature storage.
http://www.affymax.com/pipeline_hematide.html
not detectable yet
None of the big fish are doping with EPO or EPO like products. They are paranoid after last year and EPO has been limited or eliminated.
They blood dope with their own red blood cells or packed whole blood (autologous blood transfusions.)
They wait until morning blood tests are over with, then they go into the motorhome and do it before the race starts. Two options: packed red cells (whole blood that has had the plasma spun off in a centrifuge.) This requires a 500 or 600cc transfusion (about 2 units of blood.)
Or... WHole blood doping with an 800-900cc transfusion. The red cells are key and each unit of blood will give a 3% increase in hematocrit. Thats a full 2 units of blood if they want to jack to 55%. (assuming they were blood tested in the morning and had it at 49.)
The UCI could stop blood doping. They will not because the corruption is terrible within the organization, thats why I keep saying the sport is practically fixed. Not all the teams can blood dope and riders going into a race with a low heamatocrit have no chance against blood doped riders. Not only this but some of the teams are trying to race clean and some of the riders within doped teams are trying to race with no doping. It is suicide to race against blood doped riders and they will no doubt fall further behind in the TOur with Lance & Astana's return.
After the stage is over with, they just run back and take blood out. Or claim extreme dehydration to explain a high crit.
Blood testing on the startline might not work because the big dogs might be hemodiluted with IV saline and blood volume expanders to dilute the blood but this DOES NOT lower the total hemoglobin volume or eventual oxygen carrying capacity of the blood.
TOTAL BODY Hemoglobin testing with CO2 gas would end blood doping.
Some 02 carriers and other blood substitutes are not tested for however they have minimal impact compared to autologous blood doping.
Take away blood vectoring and it would be possible to race clean&competitively in the Tour de France with NO DOPING against riders limited to Human Growth Hormone, IGF-1, etc. Totally clean could win it if there was no blood doping.0 -
KKspeeder wrote:NicFrance wrote:well boys, than the new stuff just arrived in time:
Hematide™, a synthetic peptide-based erythropoiesis-stimulating agent (ESA), is a product candidate that has demonstrated the ability to stimulate the production of red blood cells.(...)
Hematide’s properties may include monthly administration, relatively uncomplicated chemical synthesis, greater stability than currently marketed products, and room temperature storage.
http://www.affymax.com/pipeline_hematide.html
not detectable yet
After the stage is over with, they just run back and take blood out. Or claim extreme dehydration to explain a high crit.
You say that if tested after the race then they explain it away but if tested (obviously only a few each day are) then they are out. If they are to be tested after the finish they have to go straight from finish line and don't get the ability to sneak to their bus or whatever to take any action : they'll be put of the race, out of competition for a period (2 weeks ?) and likely out of their team so those doing that don't exactly undertake it with fear of zero punishment surely ?0 -
There is a long waiting period post-stage (50 minutes) where Lance & others can run off to their living quarters/ trailors and "re-hyrate." before going "on stage." Lance has been caught before with a high crit... He was not given the 2-week suspension and he'll claim its dehyration.
"each Rider to be tested must present himself at the doping control station
within 30 (thirty) of finishing the Race or, where appropriate, within 30 (thirty) minutes of the end of an official ceremony in which he has taken part. For a Rider required to attend a press conference under a provision of the regulations, the deadline shall be extended to 50 (fifty) minutes."
-UCI code
and thats for the one's being tested.... and it does not take long to run off to the camper and have a doctor drain off blood. They will have to do it anyways to sleep safely. As Realgains told me.... if they try to test Lance he can just say he's super dehyrated and needs to get back to the motorhome to re-hyrate real quick.0 -
All possible but it's still a simple choice, move the UCI "vampire" test from 6am to minutes before the start of a race. No need for the early morning pantomime.KKspeeder wrote:Blood testing on the startline might not work because the big dogs might be hemodiluted with IV saline and blood volume expanders to dilute the blood but this DOES NOT lower the total hemoglobin volume or eventual oxygen carrying capacity of the blood.
The whole point of the early morning raids is to catch the riders unaware but from the start team soigneurs have been posted as lookouts in hotel receptions and then they employed delaying tactics to make sure the team leader was tested last, in other words there's been no point having an early test as it's been easy to get around.
Certainly for a prologue and TT, a start line test would have its uses and its very easy, there's no extra cost. You take the riders when they sign on, and just pull a few aside for a quick test behind the signing on truck.
Several Bouygues Telecom riders wrote a letter making this simple suggestion to the UCI, apparently they never even got a reply.0 -
KKspeeder wrote:After the stage is over with, they just run back and take blood out. Or claim extreme dehydration to explain a high crit.
Ahhh, but you need to be accompanied by a chaperone, don't you?
The Rider notified of No Advance Notice Testing shall remain within sight of the chaperone at all times
from the moment of in-person notification until the completion of the Sample collection procedure. If it was
not possible for the chaperone to observe the Rider at all times, this shall be recorded by the chaperone
and/or reported to the Doping Control Officer.
I remember last year there was whinging when the chaperone was a woman and she followed someone onto a bus. And Beltran tried to escape his chaperone.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:
And Beltran tried to escape his chaperone.KKspeeder wrote:After the stage is over with, they just run back and take blood out. Or claim extreme dehydration to explain a high crit.
That was comedy, when he tried to escape across the grass between the motorhomes.
Don't think we'll get that type of police-camera-cyclist-action now the AFLD aren't doing the testing.0 -
Japan keirin. Done, problem solved. Sequester riders under a supervision.
No team doctors. Only doctors brought by ASO.
No team soigneurs. Just registered physios brought by the ASO.
Suspicious teams brought in one month early. Their training camps wherever, with their 9 and reserves, include the same parameters of the Tour.
The CO2 blood doping test cannot be given without a disadvantage of a few days. Everyone gets it one month out, when the Astana/CSC/Caisse/Rabobank/Liquigas/Lampre teams come into camp. Then everyone gets it 7 days out, when all the teams come into camp.
Two blood doping tests.
Then supervision. No recovery doping.
Pretty simple. No one can be nobbled. If keirin in Japan can protest their integrity with this format, why cant cycling. It will have its run on effects. No longer will you see Quickstep take the spring by the scruff of the neck. All teams will back off their programs outside the Tour also.KKspeeder wrote:NicFrance wrote:well boys, than the new stuff just arrived in time:
Hematide™, a synthetic peptide-based erythropoiesis-stimulating agent (ESA), is a product candidate that has demonstrated the ability to stimulate the production of red blood cells.(...)
Hematide’s properties may include monthly administration, relatively uncomplicated chemical synthesis, greater stability than currently marketed products, and room temperature storage.
http://www.affymax.com/pipeline_hematide.html
not detectable yet
None of the big fish are doping with EPO or EPO like products. They are paranoid after last year and EPO has been limited or eliminated.
They blood dope with their own red blood cells or packed whole blood (autologous blood transfusions.)
They wait until morning blood tests are over with, then they go into the motorhome and do it before the race starts. Two options: packed red cells (whole blood that has had the plasma spun off in a centrifuge.) This requires a 500 or 600cc transfusion (about 2 units of blood.)
Or... WHole blood doping with an 800-900cc transfusion. The red cells are key and each unit of blood will give a 3% increase in hematocrit. Thats a full 2 units of blood if they want to jack to 55%. (assuming they were blood tested in the morning and had it at 49.)
The UCI could stop blood doping. They will not because the corruption is terrible within the organization, thats why I keep saying the sport is practically fixed. Not all the teams can blood dope and riders going into a race with a low heamatocrit have no chance against blood doped riders. Not only this but some of the teams are trying to race clean and some of the riders within doped teams are trying to race with no doping. It is suicide to race against blood doped riders and they will no doubt fall further behind in the TOur with Lance & Astana's return.
After the stage is over with, they just run back and take blood out. Or claim extreme dehydration to explain a high crit.
Blood testing on the startline might not work because the big dogs might be hemodiluted with IV saline and blood volume expanders to dilute the blood but this DOES NOT lower the total hemoglobin volume or eventual oxygen carrying capacity of the blood.
TOTAL BODY Hemoglobin testing with CO2 gas would end blood doping.
Some 02 carriers and other blood substitutes are not tested for however they have minimal impact compared to autologous blood doping.
Take away blood vectoring and it would be possible to race clean&competitively in the Tour de France with NO DOPING against riders limited to Human Growth Hormone, IGF-1, etc. Totally clean could win it if there was no blood doping.0 -
I don't know about you but I'd be seriously p*ssed off if a tester wanted to take a sample what 10-15 minutes before the flag drops. Once you are into the 30 mins leading up to a race then thats it, you need time to concentrate.
Since we will never illiminate doping a new approach has be tried and I'd like to see it based on certain allowed products but heavily controlled. Also drugs that are known to have major health concerns should be prioritised in testing over simply performance enhancing ones.0 -
But you'd probably be pissed of too in a stage race if you were woken at 6am for a blood test too. Especially if you were clean, you'd know the test has no value but only disturbs your precious recovery.
A quick 2 minute visit to a booth or camper van behind the signing on podium is surely easier, but above all a lot more useful in combating blood doping?0 -
Kléber wrote:A quick 2 minute visit to a booth or camper van behind the signing on podium is surely
easier, but above all a lot more useful in combating blood doping?
Just need to rejig how they do things. When they sign in they should be put in a chaperoned area which they can't leave and you can be called for a blood test. Open sign in 2 hours before start and if you need to get "into the zone" turn up early so if they want to test you it'll not bother you.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
you'd probably be pissed of too in a stage race if you were woken at 6am for a blood test too.
True, and I think WADA etc really need to get a grip of this testing lark. If we get to a point where you make riders suffer from (mental) health problems then drug testing is kind of self defeating. At least 2 riders have had media intrusion implicated in helping to lead to early deaths and so WADA do need to find a sensible balance between testing and treating athletes with respect. The first thing they could do is sort out their athlete monitoring software which all athletes agree is terrible to use at present.0 -
eh wrote:
Since we will never illiminate doping a new approach has be tried and I'd like to see it based on certain allowed products but heavily controlled. Also drugs that are known to have major health concerns should be prioritised in testing over simply performance enhancing ones.
The fundamental problem is there is little, if any, sound scientific research on the administration of these medicinal products to fit, but phsically highly stressed, individuals. For example, it's not possible to extrapolate from tests on the seriously ill with haemoglobin levels of less than 7 to the effects on the healthy at enhanced levels above 17.
As for "heavily controlling" allowed products, that is not too dissimilar an approach from what is currently failing. Plus it brings the added complication of whether a measured value of "X" is someone controlling to the maximum allowed value, or someone dropping from a higher value.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
The fundamental problem is there is little, if any, sound scientific research on the administration of these medicinal products to fit, but phsically highly stressed, individuals.
Maybe in the open domain, but I'm pretty sure the likes of Dr Ferrari etc. have an idea, after all clients dropping dead is bad for business.added complication of whether a measured value of "X" is someone controlling to the maximum allowed value, or someone dropping from a higher value.
So what we will never be able to prevent this anyway without real time monitoring. Plus does it matter your natural levels fluctuate as well.
WADA together with the athletes really need to come up with some innovative ideas and solutions, because right now it doesn't work and must cost huge amounts of money.0 -
iainf72 wrote:KKspeeder wrote:After the stage is over with, they just run back and take blood out. Or claim extreme dehydration to explain a high crit.
Ahhh, but you need to be accompanied by a chaperone, don't you?
He'll run to his motorhome and drain off the blood if he has no chaperone. If he does and they test him with his high hematocrit, he'll just claim he's super-dehyrated and that why his crit is through the roof.
Post stage crits do not matter because he'll claim dehyration. He can drink a shitload of water and lower it a couple points and he'll test at 53% and claim he's mega- dehyrated from the stage.
If Lance cant get his crit above the 50 limit for the important stages he wont do well. He'll be 10th-20th if everyone can only dope to 50%. (The 50% crit limit in itself is corrupt because no endurance rider who is training hard as a 50 and those lame hypnoxic tents dont increase your crit by more than 3 or 4% some see ZERO gains at all.) You can get a 50% while training very hard IF you live in Nepal OR you smoke 2 packs a day!
Lance has admitted his unjacked crit several times this year-its 39-41%. Lance responds well and gains more power from crit jacking. This is evident in his Worlds win in 1993. He probably gains 20% more power going from 40%-50%. 50%-60% probably gives him another 12-15%. 500 watts is over 30% higher than his un-doped 350-370.
If everybody is only at 50 Lance will be towards the front but wont win the Tour.
If everybody blood dopes to 55+ Lance will win for SURE.
If Everybody was clean Lance would be outside the top 50 places.0 -
Anabolic Steroids, HGH, IGF-1, triamcinolone (corticoid) have simply helped him recover from day to day to keep performing at aerobic max. They dont really help with VO2 max & FTP power.
Anti-inflammatory gear helps with day to day pounding and me thinks the clean LeMond even used them.
The only polypharmacy specialist that could beat Lance is Basso but his less-doped team will struggle in the TTT and loooose time. But Lance probably will not go for the Giro win unless he's greedy as F--. The Tour will be his time.
But I do think Lance might pull and Ullrich and go for a ITT win.0 -
StrangelyBrown wrote:How about compulsory doping?
Every rider has to take a compulsory and monitored regime of performance drugs, which will just be on the edge of safety, as far as the edge can be determined (ho hum, you might lose a few along the way), so anything else they decide to add will probably kill them (ho hum, you might lose a few along the way), and then we're back to the rider making the difference.
The problem is that it is unethical to study the effects of these drugs in proper trials. No one knows about the long term effects of taking drugs that are intended for a single, short-term use. However, the data is in the long-term steroid use may not be so bad. Look at Schwarzenegger.
Drugs like EPO are not completely understood. While EPO does boost red blood cells, it also has receptors in the brain that no one knows anything about. EPO, CERA, etc. may do more than what is labeled by AMGEN.
There is enough science at this point to measure the biometrics of a cyclist and be able to calculate the potential range of power output. If anyone exceeds their parameters, they need to be investigated. Nothing high tech, they just need to be examined for needle sticks. Most cycling doctors with teams do this anyway -a few basic measurements will tell them if you are capable of winning, or not.
Examination of riders for needle injection points would catch most dopers. There are not many places you can inject for blood doping.0 -
Wasn't sure where to put this or whether it has been linked to before but an interesting interview with Michael Ashenden here http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden
Wu Kong0 -
There's not much to be done about doping. Surely it's all about perception. Doping's been going on for years in cycling (and probably other sports, but I'm not too up on those!), but it only became a well known "problem" in the '90s.
That's why football is doing ok. For all we know, footballers could be juiced up to the eyeballs, (after all, why reject the WADA suggested anti-doping testing?), but since they are perceived a) not to have a problem and b) seem to be doing "enough" to combat it then it's ok.
Surely the cycling fraternity should just do the same. Make it look like it's difficult to dope and make it seem that none of the riders are, and you're fine. Doping will never dissapear, but if people think it has, then for the fans it amounts to the same thing. Unfortunately, it has been going too long, and the fans are too cyncial, so I'm not sure how viable that is now!Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0
