Is it possible to be nice bloke and dope??

jerry3571

Some of the threads in these forums seem to froth in a rabid fury about these nasty, stinking liars who dirty the pure waters of our sport and should be banished to a cold dark place where they know nothing but shame and hurt.
BUT...I've been to a few Pro race and these riders seem to be sociable, smiley and sometimes EVEN nice. From what I know, I have hung around after big races, (I used to call it "Cycle Perving") and seen some of the top guys in racing, hanging around, waiting to be picked up and taken to the airport. I have seen Lance, Zuelle, Jaja, Chiappucci , Museeuw and others and to be honest, they all seemed like nice blokes. Lance chatting Sean Yates and Zuelle talking to Gianetti and Jaja. All very nice indeed.
Some of these riders doped and have cheated but do they deserve the persecution which follows them after a positive test. I don't think so.
Cheers Jerry

aurelio_-_banned

Yes of course ‘nice’ blokes can be dopers. However, I have a feeling that those who dope due to their ambition, greed and desire to crush the opposition, rather than in order to survive in a brutal sport, are unlikely to be that ‘nice’.

jerry3571 wrote:

Some of the threads in these forums seem to froth in a rabid fury about these nasty, stinking liars who dirty the pure waters of our sport and should be banished to a cold dark place where they know nothing but shame and hurt.

I for one want nothing of the sort, just an end to the lying and hypocrisy. For example, I don’t even think that Armstrong, if he ever came clean, should be stripped of any of his Tour 'wins'. Just a Riis–like asterix next to his name in the record books is all that is needed.

finchy

aurelio wrote:

For example, I don’t even think that Armstrong, if he ever came clean, should be stripped of any of his Tour 'wins'. Just a Riis–like asterix next to his name in the record books is all that is needed.

+1 It's ridiculous that authorities should even consider stripping riders of titles won in the pre-clean up days. If Armstrong did cheat, then who the hell should get the yellow jersey in any of those years?

If, on the other hand, a rider like Contador was found to have doped in 2007, I would be happy to see Evans handed the title.

iainf72

It's a complicated issue and not black and white. You need to look at the whole culture inside the sport and make judgements based on the morality of the peloton. I think Vaughters said a while ago that if you think about it, most pro cyclists are probably good people - They all started off like us as teenagers skipping the heavy drinking / partying in favour of getting up early in the morning to ride a bike etc.

Some might do it not to let their fans down, some will do it so they don't have to get a job in a factory and some will do it to make sure they win. Some will even do it because others do it

It's like this- I bet they're mostly nice people but if you put them in a certain situation they behave outside of what would normally be considered "nice"

moray_gub

aurelio wrote:

Y'wins'. Just a Riis–like asterix next to his name in the record books is all that is needed.

So basically thats an asterix against every Tour winner since from about the 50s to the present day then .

MG

LangerDan

aurelio wrote:

Just a Riis–like asterix next to his name in the record books is all that is needed.

Moray Gub wrote:

So basically thats an asterix against every Tour winner since from about the 50s to the present day then .

MG

Wot? One of these guys?

Kléber

Of course they are nice people. Dopers aren't swarthy wifebeaters with mean tatoos who swear a lot. Some are nice, some aren't.

As Iain says, they live in a closed world and can often be surrounded by people telling them doping is ok and as long as they get away with it, all is well, it's normal. They certainly justify it, "being professional", "preparation", "supplementing", "preventing harm" are the words used.

But there does seem to be a common theme, that when caught they employ some of the most bold and audacious excuses known to man. Very few have the honour to say "I'm sorry, I made a mistake". But given they stand to lose a lot, from money to reputation, everything is at stake, no wonder they get defensive and feel let down by their "doctors".

RichN95.

LangerDan wrote:

The biggest doper of them all. Magic potion, my arse.

donaldinho

This sort of thing gets mentioned by Christian Vande Velde in the recent ProCycling interview, he compares Kohl and Schumacher: he reckons Kohl is a "nice guy" who at least held his hands up. The Mekon doesn't get off so lightly.

GroupOfOne MkII

Reverse the question and say are all the guys who don't dope nice, lovable guys all the time, who don't go home and kick the dog? They sure as heck ain't. Some will be, some won't be.

As other people have said, it's far to simplistic to condem a person as good or bad, solely on the basis of whether they've doped or not.

aurelio_-_banned

johnfinch wrote:

It's ridiculous that authorities should even consider stripping riders of titles won in the pre-clean up days.

What clean up? Patrice Clerc made some very positive attempts to tackle doping at the Tour (look at all those who were caught doping!) but McQuaid persuaded the owners of the ASO to get rid of him. Now we can look forward to the sort of UCI managed ‘dope controls’ at ASO events that we saw at the Giro last year, where the UCI failed to find a single rider positive for any doping product, and has refused to do any retrospective testing despite everyone being aware that the event was a total CERA-fest!

markwalker

aurelio wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

It's ridiculous that authorities should even consider stripping riders of titles won in the pre-clean up days.

What clean up? Patrice Clerc made some very positive attempts to tackle doping at the Tour (look at all those who were caught doping!) but McQuaid persuaded the owners of the ASO to get rid of him. Now we can look forward to the sort of UCI managed ‘dope controls’ at ASO events that we saw at the Giro last year, where the UCI failed to find a single rider positive for any doping product, and has refused to do any retrospective testing despite everyone being aware that the event was a total CERA-fest!

Yes McQuaid certainley seems to the outside like a part of the problem

iainf72

aurelio wrote:

Now we can look forward to the sort of UCI managed ‘dope controls’ at ASO events that we saw at the Giro last year, where the UCI failed to find a single rider positive for any doping product, and has refused to do any retrospective testing despite everyone being aware that the event was a total CERA-fest!

Lets be fair about it. The AFLD managed to nab a bunch of riders for one drug. Because they got access to a test that no one know about. Did they get anyone for testosterone? Blood doping? Normal EPO? No, but the UCI managed that trick in the 07 TdF.

I've heard there may be a technical reason for not being able to retrospectively test the Giro samples.

Nothing ever came of the testing for CERA of all the Olympic samples, did it?

jerry3571

I think a lot of riders dope for the fame and glory. Money is secondary. Ullrich doped and was a multi millionaire as were a lot of the top guys. It's a tough game they're in as if they have doped then they have to get off the stuff and then live a life in the shadows. The roar of the crowd and standing on the top step of a Podium gets riders in the head.
Kohl and Schumacher doped because their team was expiring at the end of the year. To be honest, a lot of riders form seems to increase whenever their contract is up. Mercado is a rider who's form improved as his contract was up; according to a Eurosport commentator.
I'm not saying that Mercado doped when his contract was up only that he must have been tempted.
-Jerry

iainf72

jerry3571 wrote:

I think a lot of riders dope for the fame and glory. Money is secondary. Ullrich doped and was a multi millionaire as were a lot of the top guys. It's a tough game they're in as if they have doped then they have to get off the stuff and then live a life in the shadows.

Ullrich was a multi-millionaire because he doped. Its not as if he did it clean, started to wane and then decided to dope. He was on it for ages, probably since he was a junior.

jerry3571

I mean Ullrich in the last few years had no money worries. He was a multi millionaire. Why take drugs and take a chance with your health for another million. I think it's the adulation and admiration he got.
I think of watching Cycle Racing as a nice thing to do and enjoy the racing as long as it is good and competitive as well as the scenery. The rules for doping are what they are whether that is right or wrong; I can accept that. Nothing I can do to change this. The Peleton reflects our own society with good and bad. Most people have done a drug or two or have drunk to an excess. We are all part of the same thing. I can't separate these Cyclist from the rest of us. As long as we bend the rules in our own livestand we cannot except other people bending the rules then we have no right to comment. Some would call us hypocrites.

dilemna

What drugs was Pantani on that took his life?

dennisn

aurelio wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

Some of the threads in these forums seem to froth in a rabid fury about these nasty, stinking liars who dirty the pure waters of our sport and should be banished to a cold dark place where they know nothing but shame and hurt.

I for one want nothing of the sort, just an end to the lying and hypocrisy.

I would have to say you are a dreamer. We are talking about human beings here, not
some idea of the perfect person. Lying and hypocrisy are human traits that everyone has to a greater or lesser extent(key word - everyone). You, me, dopers, non dopers, everyone. It's part of the human condition and the last time I looked even pro cyclists were, dare I say it, human beings. Seems that all the naysayers want pros's to be infallible gods, perfect in every way. Won't happen. I seem to pound home the fact that
these riders are HUMAN BEINGS on every post yet no one seems to realize this. Your quest for perfection in cycling(and anything else) is doomed to fail, and fail miserably.
An end to lying and hypocrisy? You're in some dream world. Or I'll have some of what you're smoking.

Dennis Noward

Kléber

You can't end lies and hypocrisy, they will be with humanity forever. But you can reduce the scale of things a bit.

For example look at Valverde today. From every source and piece of evidence available this guy is guilty but look at his ambitious denials! Pro cycling does seem to be a bubble where many inside operate on different rules to the rest of the world.

So we won't get perfection but a few simple steps can help to reduce the amount of doping in the sport and to encourage the more honest riders to have a better career.

dennisn

Kléber wrote:

You can't end lies and hypocrisy, they will be with humanity forever. But you can reduce the scale of things a bit.

For example look at Valverde today. From every source and piece of evidence available this guy is guilty but look at his ambitious denials!

Is he any different from the rest of us? There are millions of innocent people in prison,
or at least that's what the prisoners tell us. People get stopped for speeding yet will deny
that they were guilty. It's human nature to deny that we have done anything wrong. Yet
people on this forum seem to demand that these cyclists confess all of their sins because
"well, because the're pro cyclists and I need to know and they OWE it to us and the rules are different for them as human beings because they are famous and on and on and on".
You, me, them, Valverde. We're all the same except you, me, and most of them don't ride a bicycle for a living. If you can't accept other peoples faults you're in for a life of misery
because you'll end up hating everyone and probably everything. But I'm ranting on.

Dennis Noward

Arkibal

dennisn wrote:

Kléber wrote:

You can't end lies and hypocrisy, they will be with humanity forever. But you can reduce the scale of things a bit.

For example look at Valverde today. From every source and piece of evidence available this guy is guilty but look at his ambitious denials!

Is he any different from the rest of us? There are millions of innocent people in prison,
or at least that's what the prisoners tell us. People get stopped for speeding yet will deny
that they were guilty. It's human nature to deny that we have done anything wrong. Yet
people on this forum seem to demand that these cyclists confess all of their sins because
"well, because the're pro cyclists and I need to know and they OWE it to us and the rules are different for them as human beings because they are famous and on and on and on".
You, me, them, Valverde. We're all the same except you, me, and most of them don't ride a bicycle for a living. If you can't accept other peoples faults you're in for a life of misery
because you'll end up hating everyone and probably everything. But I'm ranting on.

Dennis Noward

+1, well said

Kléber

Dennis, I don't think you end up "hating everyone and probably everything" if all you want is some normality from riders.

If it's human nature to minimise your blame, say you get caught speeding you might say "I was in a rush" or "I was just above the limit". But you won't tell the police officer that you deny driving, even if you've been pulled over by the traffic police. You won't tell the police that their speed gun is poorly calibrated.

Yet just look at the riders who have been caught, they resort to audacious excuses ("my dog was ill", "the HGH is for my mother in law", "those vitamin pills must have been contaminated with EPO"). Excuses like this are not far removed from blaming alien abduction!

So from my end, no hatred, just a feeling that a few riders need to escape their bubble world and when caught, admit they broke the rules and try to make amends.

finchy

aurelio wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

It's ridiculous that authorities should even consider stripping riders of titles won in the pre-clean up days.

What clean up?

The one that you acknowledged, from about 2007-8.

I'm trying to stay optimistic, and hope that the UCI will actually do something with this biological passport - maybe my optimism will prove to be misplaced, maybe not. Time will tell. But with doping now illegal in quite a few countries where cycling is a popular activity, I hope the UCI will see that it is in their best interest to stamp out doping. I'm sure they don't want any more Festina/Cofidis/Puerto affairs.

dennisn

Kléber wrote:

If it's human nature to minimise your blame, say you get caught speeding you might say "I was in a rush" or "I was just above the limit". But you won't tell the police officer that you deny driving, even if you've been pulled over by the traffic police. You won't tell the police that their speed gun is poorly calibrated.

Yet just look at the riders who have been caught, they resort to audacious excuses ("my dog was ill", "the HGH is for my mother in law", "those vitamin pills must have been contaminated with EPO"). Excuses like this are not far removed from blaming alien abduction!

So from my end, no hatred, just a feeling that a few riders need to escape their bubble world and when caught, admit they broke the rules and try to make amends.

I think you're wrong. Human nature makes people want to deny their mistakes, or at the very least minimize them as best they can. Plenty of people will go to traffic court to fight a speeding ticket and try to prove that the police radar gun was not working correctly. As for "alien abduction" type excuses, that doesn't surprise me in the least.
People will try anything to prove their "innocence"(at least in most cases). Deny, deny, deny. Maybe we are all like that Jack Nicholson movie line "The truth, you want the truth, you can't handle the truth". Or something like that.

Dennis Noward

jerry3571

Not sure whether Pantani overdosed on recreational?? drugs when found in Rimini, Italy.
Almost got a great picture of Pantani on the Col de Madelaine when he was in Yellow but the camera stuffed up.
I saw Valverde warming up for the London Prologue and I like the bloke. When he was with Kelme he was a fantastic finisher, a bit like Jalabert. I think since the stink kicked up then Valverde has been on the Diet Coke than the full fat Coke as his form has never got back to when he stuck one to Armstrong in the Tour a few years back.
As I've said before, that if the WADA lot look harder then the more they will see. The less hard, as in other sports, then the less they will see. Simple as that.

KKspeeder

"Everybody dopes. Good guys, like Tyler, dope... and bad guys, Like Lance, dope, there are plenty of good people who dope."

-Dr. Prentice Stephan for USPO and current Garmin/Chipotle Team doctor.

KKspeeder

jerry3571 wrote:

Not sure whether Pantani overdosed on recreational?? drugs when found in Rimini, Italy.
Almost got a great picture of Pantani on the Col de Madelaine when he was in Yellow but the camera stuffed up.
I saw Valverde warming up for the London Prologue and I like the bloke. When he was with Kelme he was a fantastic finisher, a bit like Jalabert. I think since the stink kicked up then Valverde has been on the Diet Coke than the full fat Coke as his form has never got back to when he stuck one to Armstrong in the Tour a few years back.
As I've said before, that if the WADA lot look harder then the more they will see. The less hard, as in other sports, then the less they will see. Simple as that.

Its very hard to OD on cocaine. He was probably smoking crack (which is a more purified way of taking in coke.) Snorting enough to kill you is extremely difficult because cocaine doesnt absorb well unless your smoking it as crack cocaine.

You cannot really inject cocaine because it will not disolve well. You have to either snort it or smoke it and smoking is MUCH MUCH more effective in absorbing as much as possible.

Also, cocaine doesnt sit well with athletes. Maybe its because they have such a large heart stroke volume. However, it is EXTREMELY RARE to see somebody OD on cocaine.

Heroin on the other hand, is extremely potent and the dosage has to be monitored VERY carefully. Sometimes, somebody will get more purified opiat and it will kill them based on their usual dosage. Its very touch and go, they want to surpass their tolerance to get a high while keeping the dosage low enought to not die.