Cat4 speed?

littleroadie

Hi guys,

I'll be entering my first 4th cat race on sunday, but I'm not sure how fast they ride in a pack? What is the usual average speed? Any other tips for a newbie riding in his first race? Pretty nervous if I'm honest :oops:


James

Gav888

Im miles off the pace myself, so good luck with it...... but I asked the same question recently, just something to aim for training wise, from memory a Cat 4 will ave 24/25mph, poss more in the pack but its the constant break aways that are the killer though.... from what ive been told :roll:

Doobz

don't worry about the speeds.. Sit at the back and read the race and try and work out what's going on. Do as little as possible and don't get drawn into attacks. If you do somehow find yourself on the front doing a pull then don't be a hero and pull till your legs are done. Take it nice and easy till the Sh1t kicks off - Try and watch for the ones who get frustrated easily as they are the ones who usually are up there in the finish.. They are usually the mouthy ones also..

Enjoy your race.. Remember its not always the fastest and best rider that wins but the one who wants it the most

robbarker

Doobz wrote:

Remember its not always the fastest and best rider that wins but the one who wants it the most

Or the one who's got the sense, judgement and confidence to stay outof the wind until the very last moment!

inseine

Littleroadie, you'll be loads less nervous if you don't think about the speed. It's a totally artificial measure of how hard it will be since the pack will drag you along so you're average will be loads higher than you can manage on your own.
Don't worry about where you finish, just try to stay nearer the front than the back, keep your eyes open and try to ride in a straight line. You'll almost certainly not be last, so just enjoy it.

phil s

With all due respect to the poster who advised to do so, I would advise against sitting at the back. It will be harder for you if the bunch speeds up through corners, if there's a strong wind and the bunch splits you'll have no chance, you will not see what's happening from the back (not that there's ever any structure to a Cat 4 race, but that's not the point), and if you are still in contention at the end you will waste vast amounts of energy and put yourself in unnecessary danger if you have to move from the back to the front.
Sit around 10th-15th/20th wheel depending on the size of the field (I'm assumin a good field). Shelter as much as possible, save your legs and don't do unnecessary work at the front of the bunch or into the wind. Don't let gaps open in front of you, be assertive and confident of your space. If you feel strong attack with a couple of laps to go, attack hard but not so hard you blow immediately, get your head down and pedal strongly and smoothly and focus on getting to that line rather than looking behind you every 5 seconds. Alternatively if you're in contention for the sprint, remember - if in doubt lead it out. Most Cat 4s tend to get nervous, slow down and wait for someone else to start the sprint. This leads to the slower riders getting to the front and swarming the road which is more dangerous.

inseine

It's absolutely right that you shouldn't sit at the back, but you will find that the bunch moves around you. Get up into the first 10 or so and it gives you scope to drift back if it feels hard (on a hill for example) without drifting of the back. Then move up when it's easy. Most people take a breather when the pace drops so it's easy to get back near the front. Don't kill yourself to stay in the first few when it gets hard.
I think that the advise is good, but not knowing you I would say just get round and enjoy it. if you're good enough to challenge for a place there'll be plenty of other races and you'll be stronger and wiser by then.

Kléber

Road racing isn't about average speed, it's not about holding 25mph for an hour, it's about being able to do 30mph for 30 seconds, 28mph for 2 minutes and then having the ability to recover at 18mph until the next time it gets lively.

If it's your first race, find an experienced club mate and track them in the race and remember, if you haven't done it before, riding in a bunch saves a lot of energy, it's much easier.

Yellow Peril

I had my first tast of racing last season.

In my first race I was very nervous and conscious of not bringing other riders off. the course was 4 laps of a 6 mile or so box. Everything was going well as in the first few turns I found myself towards the front. however, on the second lap I was last going in to the the turn and couldn't accelerate hard enough out to stay on the back and so the elsatic snapped.

If you can hold a position in the top third of the field, do so. So when the group picks the pace up on the exit of turns you are still in the group as you fall back This wiil be difficult but you will soon find out that it isn't the average speed that is the killer but changes of pace out of corners etc

littleroadie

Thanks for the advice guys, all great tips! I really appreciate it.

I don't think I'll have a problem sitting in the bunch, but like most of you say, it's the changes in pace that can catch you out. What happens if I find myself at the front of the group and I'm tiring, what is the normal procedure for falling back? Do I just slow down and let people pass if they want to go faster?

James

Yellow Peril

James,

If your speed is falling and a gap starts to appear between you and the bike ahead that gap will inevitably get filled if the pack behind you think that you are travelling too slowly.

I would say do not intentionally slow down. this will just scupper any chance you have of hanging in there further down the field. If you are going to get spat out the back it will happen of its own accord.

Bronzie

littleroadie wrote:

What happens if I find myself at the front of the group and I'm tiring, what is the normal procedure for falling back? Do I just slow down and let people pass if they want to go faster?

Best thing to do is to signal your intention to pull over (flick of your elbow), AND HAVING CHECKED IT'S CLEAR TO WHICH EVER SIDE YOU INTEND TO MOVE (by looking over your shoulder while maintaining a straight direction), pull over and then slow down a little and try and slot back in a little further down the bunch.

Just slowing suddenly on the front is a recipe for someone a few places back to touch wheels and fall off.

pinkbikini

Where are you racing, littleroadie?
Echo all the comments about trying to stay near-ish the front - within the first third if possible. You should avoid the majority of nervous braking by staying here. Keep alert though - it is really, really easy to suddenly look around and find out that you're not in the middle of the bunch, but almost at the back!
Changes in pace are easier to cope with near the front as well.

littleroadie

@ bronzie and yellow peril:

Thanks guys, will do. Don't really want to cause any crashes so I will try an ride with a brain with the intention of being able to go back to work on monday!!!

@ pinkbikini, I'm doing the chertsey 4th cat race on sunday. If I find myself near the back whats the best way to start moving yourself forward without going around the outside and braving the headwind yourself (and having other riders sit behind you instead)?


This is all really helpful info guys, thanks a lot, really appreciate it.

pinkbikini

My first race was the 4th at Chertsey Beginners Series last year - great fun. The circuit is good and wide, which helps. There's usually a pretty good turnout of riders, so a fairly busy bunch.
How to move forwards - easiest way is exactly as you say - go up on one side (safely) - you will tow some others, but hey, it's the easiest way to move up. And aim to move up a lot, i.e. at least to near the front - you've put all the effort in, keep the momentum and get yourself into the best position you can, as you may start to slide back through the bunch a little later on. Otherwise just look for small gaps and move into them - make obvious moves, even indicating with a hand if necessary that you're moving into a gap - it's a starter race, so no shame in doing this and it promotes safety. If its anything like last year the race is quite short, only the last 2 or 3 laps are really 'serious'.
Have fun, and try things - move up, drop back, find a gap, try a break, above all ride safely - you have nothing to lose and it's the best way to find out what works, what your strengths and weaknesses are, etc.
Let us know how you get on...

inseine

Moving up the bunch. In general you don't want to be trapped against the curb so try to get some space and don't panic to move back up, killing yourself into a headwind. You'll find that they'll be natural slow and fast bits. Some times it'll be really slow! If there's an acceleration and then everyone slows down just keep your speed and you'll be at the front, no problem.

KKspeeder

littleroadie wrote:

Hi guys,

I'll be entering my first 4th cat race on sunday, but I'm not sure how fast they ride in a pack? What is the usual average speed? Any other tips for a newbie riding in his first race? Pretty nervous if I'm honest :oops:


James

I'll say this about your first few races....

The biggest thing is to stay RELAXED and do not get figety. Focus on riding a strait line and not swerving. Avoid half wheeling, especially if its windy. Keep your cool and look ahead up the road for whats coming up. Be prepared for whats GOING TO HAPPEN. If your wait until something is happening to react, your usually to late. (If its a crash.)

jibberjim

littleroadie wrote:

I'll be entering my first 4th cat race on sunday, but I'm not sure how fast they ride in a pack? What is the usual average speed? Any other tips for a newbie riding in his first race? Pretty nervous if I'm honest :oops:

How'd you do Little Roadie? I had 23.9mph average for the race (although after being out of position after getting boxed in by people slowing way too much on the last steep hill, I just went backwards through the pack well out of the way not contesting the sprint, so finished at the back of the pack)

I think it was a lot more even pace than last week, no big attacks at the front, and no-one was ever more than just dangling off the front. I was still pretty pleased when it slowed up on lap 6.

Gav888

So how did you get on, spill the beans

littleroadie

I had an absolute blast, great fun! I didn't fall off the back and managed to stick with the bunch the whole way round, including the sprint!

No idea where I came, don't really care either

All I know is, I'll be back for more


I definately learnt a lot, I tried to move up near the last few laps, and rode around the outside but nobody would let me sit behind their wheel so I was kind of stuck taking the headwind. Definately won't be doing that again :oops:

chrisw28

jibberjim wrote:

littleroadie wrote:

I'll be entering my first 4th cat race on sunday, but I'm not sure how fast they ride in a pack? What is the usual average speed? Any other tips for a newbie riding in his first race? Pretty nervous if I'm honest :oops:

How'd you do Little Roadie? I had 23.9mph average for the race (although after being out of position after getting boxed in by people slowing way too much on the last steep hill, I just went backwards through the pack well out of the way not contesting the sprint, so finished at the back of the pack)

I think it was a lot more even pace than last week, no big attacks at the front, and no-one was ever more than just dangling off the front. I was still pretty pleased when it slowed up on lap 6.

It was my first race too, thanks to everyone who replied to the OP, it really helped me out too

I had the same problem, I found myself waaay too far at the back on the last lap so I belted it up to the front before the two hills near the end, and didn't find a free wheel to sit behind either. :roll:

Managed to bridge back up just behind the main group down the main straight though which I was pretty happy with considering my terrible positioning. Next time I'm gonna move up to the front a couple laps before and try as hard as I can to stay there. Its annoying how you end up moving backwards through the pack without even realising though :oops:

celbianchi

chrisw28 wrote:

Its annoying how you end up moving backwards through the pack without even realising though :oops:

Haha - I have been racing for 4 years and still find this happens occasionally, you can be taking it easy for a few mins and think "ah well, I'll just let these few come by on the outside", think nothing of it, then glance over your shoulder and see the car behind!.
Then start to move your way up again!

Gav888

littleroadie wrote:

I had an absolute blast, great fun! I didn't fall off the back and managed to stick with the bunch the whole way round, including the sprint!

No idea where I came, don't really care either

All I know is, I'll be back for more


I definately learnt a lot, I tried to move up near the last few laps, and rode around the outside but nobody would let me sit behind their wheel so I was kind of stuck taking the headwind. Definately won't be doing that again :oops:

Glad you had a good race, out of interest what was the distance and your time to complete the race?

jibberjim

Gav888 wrote:

Glad you had a good race, out of interest what was the distance and your time to complete the race?

I had 19.7 miles, completed in 49:28.

Lap average speeds in mph 22.4 / 23.2 / 24 / 24.4 / 24.9 / 23.0 / 23.9 / 23.7 / 24.2 / 25.2

As I said before I didn't contest the sprint, eased up after the final descent, so the last would've been a bit faster for people who actually kept sprinting.

joeyhalloran

i noticed earlier in the thread that someone said not to focus on average speed too much, however, what other indications of my ability to stay in the pack do i have? how do i know i am fit enough to race or still need much more work? I know lots of people will say 'try it and see' but i don't fancy spending money and a free day going to a race to be dropped in the first few miles but then again, i have an itch for trying racing and wanna give it ago.

Thanks

jibberjim

JoeyHalloran wrote:

i noticed earlier in the thread that someone said not to focus on average speed too much, however, what other indications of my ability to stay in the pack do i have? how do i know i am fit enough to race or still need much more work? I know lots of people will say 'try it and see'

Try it and see

I'd say about the only other option is to find some guys who already race, and ride with them on a hard ride - where they choose the pace, and you stay with them. Although until you get the skills of racing, part of it is luck anyway, as if you end up in the wrong place, you may get dropped anyway, even if you should be plenty fit enough to stay on.

I'd also say if you can ride for an hour at over 23mph, then you're plenty fit enough, unless you're an absolute pure TT'er who can't change pace for toffee. But you really can't say for certain unless you ride either a real race, or a very hard race-like training ride.

joeyhalloran

i have a race lined up for the 5th of May! We'll see how it goes. YIKES!

Mettan

JoeyHalloran wrote:

i noticed earlier in the thread that someone said not to focus on average speed too much, however, what other indications of my ability to stay in the pack do i have? how do i know i am fit enough to race or still need much more work? I know lots of people will say 'try it and see' but i don't fancy spending money and a free day going to a race to be dropped in the first few miles but then again, i have an itch for trying racing and wanna give it ago.

Thanks

Without wanting to sound too off-putting, the pace can be ridiculously quick even in a Cat 3/4 or 2/3/4 race - a typical ~ 45 mile race around a flat industrial estate might start off at 23-26 mph, and pretty much stay there for the first 20 miles - can be a shock to the system, if not used to it - however, I'd definately say to try a Road race - if you can get out early, say 5.00 am, when the roads are empty, try and get up to 20-23 mph and keep it there for a while - not easy, although it'll give you an idea of the exertion level involved in Road racing.

joeyhalloran

Do you think a solo effort of 20-23 is a relatively good test?

Mettan

JoeyHalloran wrote:

Do you think a solo effort of 20-23 is a relatively good test?

Yes, very much so - you might find that in a flat 40-50 mile race (like a quiet industrial estate), the pace never drops below 17-18 mph - in that kind of scenario, its very easy to get dropped - problem then comes when you're riding alone into a headwind and you find yourself dropping further and further back, despairingly watching the pack drift off into the distance - not a nice feeling. Definately try a race out though - it'll instantly give you a very good idea of the kind of consistent pace required to stay in the bunch - even after one race you'll learn plenty and be better prepared for the next one.

Gav888

Mettan wrote:

JoeyHalloran wrote:

Do you think a solo effort of 20-23 is a relatively good test?

Yes, very much so - you might find that in a flat 40-50 mile race (like a quiet industrial estate), the pace never drops below 17-18 mph - in that kind of scenario, its very easy to get dropped - problem then comes when you're riding alone into a headwind and you find yourself dropping further and further back, despairingly watching the pack drift off into the distance - not a nice feeling. Definately try a race out though - it'll instantly give you a very good idea of the kind of consistent pace required to stay in the bunch - even after one race you'll learn plenty and be better prepared for the next one.

That is good to know.... thanks for that.

So, 50 miles at 20-23 mph completed in around 2.5 hrs, does that sound about right for training solo for a 50 mile race?

If so, I can already ride for 2.5 hours, but im completing 33 miles at present, so a long way to go, but at least I know I can ride the time, but I just need to work on speed now