Motorcycles in London Bus Lanes

lost_in_thought

I don't listen to music so do hear them coming, and usually try to identify which side of me they're planning to pass, if there's an option, but am still occasionally surprised by how damn close they are when they do pass.

toontra

Clever Pun wrote:

Anyone going to comment on my comment on the 1st page?

You said this had been done to death, so implied it wasn't worth discussing again. I disagree. The scheme has been up and running for a couple of months and it's only now that we're starting to be able to gauge the effect.

This is hugely important. If this pilot "succeeds", we will have motorbikes in every bus lane in London, not just the nice broad ones on red routes but every narrow, broken and badly designed bus lane. Once the novelty wears off, the legislation is in place and behaviour is no longer under scrutiny, things will get worse, possibly a lot worse. This is precisely the right time to discuss this in depth.

Does it not worry you that motorcycle magazines are trying to slant the vote by urging all their readers to vote in favour (presumably whether or not their actual experiences or views are positive)?

il_principe

chuckcork wrote:

IMHO a Motoryclist racing along a bus lane alongside stationary traffic is, within a very short time, going to find their MB impacting on the car iturning across their path, the driver of which would never have looked for them because they didn't expect to see a mB there (in the first instance) and couldn't see them in the second due to poor sightlines.

Its hard enough getting people to notice you when you're on a slower bicycle and take your ability to go from 0 to 20mph in a very short distance and your inability to stop as quickly as a car into account, when they say pull out in front of you (like the tosser in Kingston last night, ignores me + superbright lights + high viz gear to cut me up on a roundabout and then stops dead so I almost run into the f*cker).

Motorcyclists with a far higher speed, heavier weight, and also limited braking ability especially in the wet, are just asking to be organ donors.

But speed limits in London (where you will encounter large numbers of cyclists) are 30mph anyway, so the speed argument doesn't really hold. I along with many on here can regularly be doing 25mph+ in bus lanes. All drivers should be checking bus lanes regardless of who they expect to be finding there.

chuckcork

jashburnham wrote:

But speed limits in London (where you will encounter large numbers of cyclists) are 30mph anyway, so the speed argument doesn't really hold. I along with many on here can regularly be doing 25mph+ in bus lanes. All drivers should be checking bus lanes regardless of who they expect to be finding there.

Can't check if you don't even look, won't look if you don't see a reason too.

back when I had a MB I found myself one day locking up brakes from exactly the situation I describe, the bus lane was available for use (as outside bus lane restriction hours) but no one was in it, seeing it as a shortcut was OK for me, but people not seeing the bus didn't look for me either.

il_principe

So the issue isn't really bikes in bus lanes then is it, it's educating drivers...

chuckcork

Speed limits have been in existence for rather a long time, to get your licence you have to demonstrate you know them, and other traffic law as well. Yet for all that "education" and testing a licence is supposed to demonstrate the possession of, its pretty obvious that it all is ignored unless enforced.

I have no hope that "education" will help in this situation either.

secretsam

Evil reckless nightmare horror nastiness. Boris is an idiot, they are a total disaster in bus lanes, even more unpredictable than buses and smelly, too.

Absolutely no apologies to bikers on here, sorry.

simon johnson

jashburnham wrote:

toontra wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

mmm but you should check over your shoulder before swerving really. There could be another cyclist coming up behind you.

Whilst technically correct, don't tell me you've never spotted a potentially lethal pothole at the last minute. I'd say it happens to me in London several times a day if I'm going on an unfamiliar route. When that happens, there's no time to look over your shoulder or indicate - it's either swerve or risk hitting the defect hard and coming off, maybe into traffic.

The highway code recognises this, and tells drivers to give cyclists room as they may swerve to avoid potholes or be blown by gusts of wind.

The whole point is that if motorbikes are undertaking traffic at speed then they pose an additional threat to cyclists - simple as that, really.

True, but I like to think I'd hear a MB behind me. I've not yet been undertaken by one (yet), but I do worry about other cyclists trying to undertake when I'm slowing for lights (lets face it this is the only chance they get!) I'm pretty good at looking out for potholes - owning a pricey bike tends to make you risk averse in that respect!

I hear the motorbike coming, I just don't know which side it plans to pass me on.

For those that would like to make TFl aware of your opinion on this matter (via survey):

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/finesandregulations/10151.aspx

go to the 'have your say' link - takes a couple of minutes.

OldSkoolKona

When I first heard about the trial, I didn't actually have a problem with it, as my experience, that motorcyclists on the open road were in general courteous to cyclists in giving space them.

However, from listening to the arguments for and against, and from seeing the experience on the street, the interactions are different in a congested London environment than on the open road.

The speed differential is a concern to me (particularly from the off, e.g. at the lights) and as LiT mentioned, the behaviour of people on scooters (especially the pizza deliverly end) and motor cyle couriers.

In addition, there has been a steady erosion with motor propelled cycles (be it scooters or motorcycles) moving into ASLs and even cycle lanes, with instances of lesser behaved examples bullying the cycles.

From all of this, I've had to change my opinion (shock horror, it does happen :shock: ) and now feel that it isn't a good idea. However, I'm not hopeful that the trial period won't just flow on into a standard acceptance of it.

Finally, no matter what your opinion of it is, the way Boris imposed the trial, without any consultation with cycling (or ped) bodies is a sad precedent.

OldSkoolKona

When I first heard about the trial, I didn't actually have a problem with it, as my experience, that motorcyclists on the open road were in general courteous to cyclists in giving space them.

However, from listening to the arguments for and against, and from seeing the experience on the street, the interactions are different in a congested London environment than on the open road.

The speed differential is a concern to me (particularly from the off, e.g. at the lights) and as LiT mentioned, the behaviour of people on scooters (especially the pizza deliverly end) and motor cyle couriers.

In addition, there has been a steady erosion with motor propelled cycles (be it scooters or motorcycles) moving into ASLs and even cycle lanes, with instances of lesser behaved examples bullying the cycles.

From all of this, I've had to change my opinion (shock horror, it does happen :shock: ) and now feel that it isn't a good idea. However, I'm not hopeful that the trial period won't just flow on into a standard acceptance of it.

Finally, no matter what your opinion of it is, the way Boris imposed the trial, without any consultation with cycling (or ped) bodies is a sad precedent.

alfablue

Confession time:

When I was 18 I was a London motorcycle courier. In those days we had radio's with loud speaker horns on the bars, we were shouted at continuously by control to hassle us as to whether we had POB (parcel on board) and if we were clear for the next pick up. The pressure was high. There was no pay, merely being paid for miles with POB, out of which we had to pay for the radio hire and maintain and fuel the bikes (some weeks I made a loss before I got to be quick, and know where to be for the juicy jobs). Much of the work was less than 1 mile. This is no excuse, just human nature (combined with the naivety of an 18 yr old), the pressure made me ride like a lunatic - if there was a gap, it was mine! If I hung about I would end the week out of pocket. You just get caught up in the frenzy. I averaged one minor spill per month in my first year. Indeed the second job I took was to replace a deceased rider, I didn't realise till I turned up on day 1 and the guys were all dressed for the funeral - cannon fodder! I now count myself lucky for having survived this period with nothing worse than having my leg run over by an articulated lorry!

At the time there were fewer cyclists, now most short city centre couriers are on bikes (cycles), but no amount of training or public safety education is going to quell the desperation of the young M/C courier, sure I was one of the worst, but there were many like me.

In the light of this knowledge (or confession), I would want M/C's to be banned from bus lanes, for the safety of cyclists and possibly pedestrians.

Or is it all different now? Have I been unfair to the MC courier of the noughties?

ps: I am a reformed character, and have spent most of my career since in health care, having "seen the light" or "the error of my ways".

prj45

ragged1100 wrote:

My point is that its a taring all with the same brush problem, its not what you're riding, its whose riding it that the issue.

Ragged

You're right of course, If I'd seen somebody write "my observation is that cyclists take silly risks at high speed" I'd've been all over them like a rash.

So, to correct myself; my observation is that some people on PWTs take sily risks at high speeds.

crosstowncommuter

I was initially willing to give motorbikes the benefit of the doubt and see how things panned out, but as time goes on with this "trial" I find myself becoming less and less sympathetic.

As others have mentioned, the overriding difference I have noticed since the trial started on my route, is the complete disregard for ASL's and cycle lanes. I do a 10 mile (SE London to NW London via Waterloo bridge) each way commute every day, and without fail I see bikers using the cycle lanes and ASL's with complete disregard for cyclists. It definitely seems to have got worse since the start of the year when the trial began.

Waterloo bridge south to north bus lane also seems to be a popular spot for the lets-see-if-i-can-top-80-before-the-underpass-in-the-buslane passtime :shock:.

Way to go Boris :roll: - with a bit more effort he might actually manage to reverse the upwards trend in cycling in London - now that would be impressive!!!!

I will be very surprised if within the trial period there is not at least one serious collision / fatality involving a motorbike and a cyclist in a bus lane. I really hope it doesn't come to that, but there are too many lazy idiots on both sides of the argument for it not to be a likely outcome.

Wonder how things will pan out as the weather improves and the fair weather, recession-busting occasional cyclists start turning out in droves. Is it just me or has the rush started early this year?

sean65

crosstowncommuter wrote:

Wonder how things will pan out as the weather improves and the fair weather, recession-busting occasional cyclists start turning out in droves. Is it just me or has the rush started early this year?

Aha!! So do I! I ride motorbikes, cycle and drive cars in Central London every day. And granted, regardless of what I'm using, London's full of dickheads. On bikes, cars, buses, taxi's etc...But the fair weather motorbikes really get on my nerves.

When I'm filtering through traffic I don't hang about but I don't take silly risks. I pace myself. I'm not commuting. I'm out all day and have to pace myself. But next month we'll see the start of the fair weather bikes who'll ride up my arse revving the nuts off their bikes as if to say "get out of my way". It's laughable. I wonder if they'd rev their cars like that.

Anyway guys, because I signal on my motorbike to change position, it doesn't give me the right to move into that position if it's not clear. I don't trust my mirrors and always look before changing lanes etc. I just wish more cyclists would do this. It's called a "lifesaver" in bike speak. And not without reason.

Just keep your wits about you and there's room for all of us.(just)

toontra

Just been along the Embankment (going east). Saw three m.b.'s doing at least 60 undertaking cars (who were doing the speed limit or above).

Then as I was approaching a set of lights, 4 m.b.'s pulled into the cycle lane in front of me so they could filter into the ASL area, completely blocking it.

I've never seen this blatant an abuse of the cycle facilities before, and wonder if they are being emboldened by being allowed to use bus lanes.

Whatever the cause, this is getting bloody ridiculous.

toontra

Just to dig this up again - am I the only one who's noticed that, as the trial continues, I'm increasingly being overtaken in the bus lane (often narrowly) by motorbikes who are using the bus lane to undertake freely moving traffic doing the speed limit (or a bit over). In other words, they are speeding at the same time as making a dangerous manoeuvre, often at ridiculous speeds.

Is that really the purpose of the trial? - to encourage motorbikes to speed, because that seems to be the result.

simon johnson

toontra wrote:

Just to dig this up again - am I the only one who's noticed that, as the trial continues, I'm increasingly being overtaken in the bus lane (often narrowly) by motorbikes who are using the bus lane to undertake freely moving traffic doing the speed limit (or a bit over). In other words, they are speeding at the same time as making a dangerous manoeuvre, often at ridiculous speeds.

Is that really the purpose of the trial? - to encourage motorbikes to speed, because that seems to be the result.

That's my experience also. Recently a motorcycle undertook me whilst cycling in a bus lane, I was, however, to the extreme right of the bus lane preparing to overtake another cyclist. Shouldn't matter though, if I'm there and he can't overtake then that's that - wait, beep or whatever.. but do not undertake! I did pull him up at the lights and was given a load of ignorant abuse....

Just a massive speeding frenzy as they go from one set of lights to the next, and when they get there they're all crammed in to the designated cycle box!!! :evil:

I hope this trial will be over soon

The Chingford Skinhead

Toontra and Simon J - I hope you're feeding this back to either TfL direct or the LCC

cjcp

Not so much motorbikes, more with scooters. But I find them cr@p drivers as a whole, whether they're in the bus lane or not.

But it's not the bus lanes that's the problem on my route. It's the scooters (and motorbikes) using the bike lanes and the ASL box. I still think that the root of London's traffic problems remains the sheer number of cars on the road, but berks on scooters don't help alleviate the problem.

mark1964

I've posted about this before, so at the risk of boring folks, here we go:

I think it's a bad idea. I live and ride in Bristol which has allowed motorbikes in bus lanes for over a decade. Boris Johnson loves to think of it as a shining example. But did you all know that it was pushed through without proper consultation or follow-up study, unlike the experiment going on in London. One of my 'sources' told me that it boiled down to some aggressive campaigning by two bikers who sat on the council, so you could say it was an 'inside job'.

Anyway, here's why they shouldn't be allowed in bus lanes:

1)Bus lanes should encourage exclusively low-carbon (buses transport lots of people) or carbon-neutral transport ie bicycles, that also have health benefits. Allowing motorbikes into bus lanes encourages motorbike use and thus undermines this idea. Think of this: It doesn't prevent motorcyclists themselves from using the bus lane, only their chosen transport. In Bristol, motorbikes in bus lanes have failed totally to make any impact on congestion, so don't let the biker community kid you that this is a reason to allow them in bus lanes.

2) Motorbikes have a high power to speed ratio and are statistically involved in more accidents.

3)Speeding. Recent studies in Westminster have revealed that there has been an increase of up to 43mph in the average speed (yes, average!) in a 30mph zone when bikers are allowed in bus lanes (source:CTC/London Cycling Campaign). I witness bikers speeding, racing and other high speed numpty-ness in Bristol bus lanes. It's an open race track for them. Any 'code of conduct' is bound to be ignored, especially by the boy racer brigade.

4) Function creep. In Bristol, bikers are only allowed to ride in bus lanes that display a white motorbike symbol on a blue background. But it's amazing how many bikers seem incapable of reading large signs that say 'Bus & Cycle Only'. Allow bikers in some of the red routes into London and, once word gets about, ALL bus lanes across the capital will fill up with motorbikes.

5) Cycle lanes abuse. I see a lot of bikers taking short cuts down cycle lanes (once, with me in front, big fat motorbike behind - tooted at me to get out of the way at the ASL!). They also use the ASL's in Bristol with immunity. It's red asphalt, just like a bus lane, so they take the view that they should be allowed to use them. In fact, go and lurk on some biker forums and it seems to be the next 'phase' of campaigning - motorbikes in cycle lanes and the ASL. Don't laugh- in Holland, bastion of cycling, mopeds and scooters can use the off-road lanes!. Wouldn't you just love some teenage numpties on vespas darting about cycle lanes?.

In conclusion, allowing motorbikes into bus lanes does nothing to encourage low carbon transport, it makes life riskier for cyclists and can lead to abuse of other cycle facilities as well as increasing noise and pollution. The only people who gain any advantage are the motorcycling community who gain a bit more commuting convenience. Better to ride a bicycle eh?. Or get the bus.

And before you all think I hate bikers, I don't. Just bad riding.

Headhuunter

mark1964 wrote:

I've posted about this before, so at the risk of boring folks, here we go:

I think it's a bad idea. I live and ride in Bristol which has allowed motorbikes in bus lanes for over a decade. Boris Johnson loves to think of it as a shining example. But did you all know that it was pushed through without proper consultation or follow-up study, unlike the experiment going on in London. One of my 'sources' told me that it boiled down to some aggressive campaigning by two bikers who sat on the council, so you could say it was an 'inside job'.

Anyway, here's why they shouldn't be allowed in bus lanes:

1)Bus lanes should encourage exclusively low-carbon (buses transport lots of people) or carbon-neutral transport ie bicycles, that also have health benefits. Allowing motorbikes into bus lanes encourages motorbike use and thus undermines this idea. Think of this: It doesn't prevent motorcyclists themselves from using the bus lane, only their chosen transport. In Bristol, motorbikes in bus lanes have failed totally to make any impact on congestion, so don't let the biker community kid you that this is a reason to allow them in bus lanes.

2) Motorbikes have a high power to speed ratio and are statistically involved in more accidents.

3)Speeding. Recent studies in Westminster have revealed that there has been an increase of up to 43mph in the average speed (yes, average!) in a 30mph zone when bikers are allowed in bus lanes (source:CTC/London Cycling Campaign). I witness bikers speeding, racing and other high speed numpty-ness in Bristol bus lanes. It's an open race track for them. Any 'code of conduct' is bound to be ignored, especially by the boy racer brigade.

4) Function creep. In Bristol, bikers are only allowed to ride in bus lanes that display a white motorbike symbol on a blue background. But it's amazing how many bikers seem incapable of reading large signs that say 'Bus & Cycle Only'. Allow bikers in some of the red routes into London and, once word gets about, ALL bus lanes across the capital will fill up with motorbikes.

5) Cycle lanes abuse. I see a lot of bikers taking short cuts down cycle lanes (once, with me in front, big fat motorbike behind - tooted at me to get out of the way at the ASL!). They also use the ASL's in Bristol with immunity. It's red asphalt, just like a bus lane, so they take the view that they should be allowed to use them. In fact, go and lurk on some biker forums and it seems to be the next 'phase' of campaigning - motorbikes in cycle lanes and the ASL. Don't laugh- in Holland, bastion of cycling, mopeds and scooters can use the off-road lanes!. Wouldn't you just love some teenage numpties on vespas darting about cycle lanes?.

In conclusion, allowing motorbikes into bus lanes does nothing to encourage low carbon transport, it makes life riskier for cyclists and can lead to abuse of other cycle facilities as well as increasing noise and pollution. The only people who gain any advantage are the motorcycling community who gain a bit more commuting convenience. Better to ride a bicycle eh?. Or get the bus.

And before you all think I hate bikers, I don't. Just bad riding.

I agree, I ride faster than most other cyclists on my commute up the Old Kent Road and am therefore further from the curb, more central in the bus lane as I pass other cyclists and often find that motorcyclists and moped riders whisk very close to my right earlobe as they shoot along bus lanes.

I don't know if they do this to try to nudge me into single file with the other cyclists but it's disconcerting and it would only take one tiny swerve from me, as I perhaps avoid a manhole cover or pothole and they would be straight into me. I definitely don't agree that all motorcyclists know how vulnerable 2 wheelers are and therefore make the safest road users. There are some serious idiots out there, particularly on mopeds, take pizza delivery riders - they're loonies.